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[Bullza]

Do you not see the irony in that statement? The fights in DB go on for episodes. The fight against Vegeta in Kai was 4 episodes.

fights would be rushed badly because of a lack of screentime

It wouldn't be the same story but condensed. You'd structure it differently.

no real selling point etc.

Dragon Ball is the selling point

That's the series. They can't do the same in a movie, it all needs to be condensed. It needs a solid beginning, middle and end.

Even if the fighting structure was changed the problem would still be there. There's no villain and there's no importance or danger to what is actually happening. They just fought mainly for fun, in matches where killing is prohibited, for a wish that still in the series doesn't matter.

The movie would be a waste of time. It might be Dragon Ball but it still needs something significant enough for people to pay money to see it which BoG and RoF had.

[ABED]

That's the series. They can't do the same in a movie, it all needs to be condensed. It needs a solid beginning, middle and end.

And? I don't see how it couldn't work in essence just because it's a movie. Every story needs a beginning, middle, and end. Of course it would need condensing, but that can be accomplished easily. Look at DB movie 3. That took elements of several arcs and told a solid story.

The movie would be a waste of time. It might be Dragon Ball but it still needs something significant enough for people to pay money to see it which BoG and RoF had.

People didn't go to Battle of Gods because they wanted something significant. They paid to see new DB. May that's not enough for you, but it's enough for some. Where'd you get the idea that the brand name and the battles aren't enough?

[Bullza]

And? I don't see how it couldn't work in essence just because it's a movie. Every story needs a beginning, middle, and end. Of course it would need condensing, but that can be accomplished easily. Look at DB movie 3. That took elements of several arcs and told a solid story.

It wouldn't follow a good story structure. Mystical Adventure had a Tournament but there was more to it than that same with Bojack Unbound.

People didn't go to Battle of Gods because they wanted something significant. They paid to see new DB. May that's not enough for you, but it's enough for some. Where'd you get the idea that the brand name and the battles aren't enough?

People saw Battle of Gods because it was the first Dragon Ball movie in 17 years, had Toriyama's direct involvement and introduced a new for Goku after also about 17 years.

Resurrection F brought back the most popular villain in the franchise after a long absence and gave him and Goku and Vegeta all new forms.

That's what sold that movie. A Future Trunks saga movie would have been sold on the return on Future Trunks after a long absence and the primary villain appearing to be Goku and the mystery around it.

The Universe 6 saga as a movie would have no notable selling point. It would have a very weak story where nothing of any significance or threat happened making the movie uninteresting. A movie that would just be battle after battle that leads to absolutely nothing is useless.

[ABED]

You don't know for a fact what sold those movies other than the brand name. It's just conjecture.

no notable selling point.

Dragon Ball IS the selling point.

[Bullza]

You don't know for a fact what sold those movies other than the brand name. It's just conjecture.

Dragon Ball IS the selling point.

Brand name is never good enough alone.

Battle of Z and Xenoverse both share the same Dragon Ball brand name and yet one sold over 6 times as many copies as the other.

Battle of Gods and Resurrection F share the same brand name but it didn't stop the latter from making significantly more money.

The Dark Knight is a Batman movie. Batman vs Superman is a Batman movie and yet one made a billion and the other did not and so on.

It's pretty obvious what helped those two Dragon Ball movies make money and a Universe 6 wouldn't have any of those. There was no movie to be had there.

[ABED]

Brand name is never good enough alone.

Battle of Z and Xenoverse both share the same Dragon Ball brand name and yet one sold over 6 times as many copies as the other.

Battle of Gods and Resurrection F share the same brand name but it didn't stop the latter from making significantly more money.

The Dark Knight is a Batman movie. Batman vs Superman is a Batman movie and yet one made a billion and the other did not and so on.

It's pretty obvious what helped those two Dragon Ball movies make money and a Universe 6 wouldn't have any of those. There was no movie to be had there.

Please stop trying to explain why something makes more money. Your analyses are overly simplistic. We've all seen crappy movies make more than good movies. If you are trying to imply that quality of the movies is the biggest factor, then you are way off base. In your Batman example, Ledger's death was a huge reason for that film's success. And just because something sells MORE doesn't mean the other thing doesn't sell. And no, it is NOT obvious what helped one DB movie make more.

A tournament with fun battles is a selling point. Lastly, in case you didn't know, quality is subjective.

[Bullza]

Stop trying to explain why something makes more money. We've all seen crappy movies make more than good movies. If you are trying to imply that quality of the movies is the biggest factor, then you are way off base. In your Batman example, Ledger's death was a huge reason for that film's success. And just because something sells MORE doesn't mean something doesn't sell.

That has nothing to do with what I said. It doesn't have anything to do with quality.

Again why did Battle of Z sell 620,000 copies but Xenoverse sell over 4 million copies when they both belong to the same brand?

Is it not because the one game had more significant selling points that allowed that game to sell a lot more?

It just being Dragon Ball is not enough. It still needs something of significance to get it to sell. That's why they've thrown in new transformation in the last couple.

A tournament with fun battles is a selling point.

No it isn't. They all have fun battles anyway. A movie about a Tournament that started because of food and what resulted in absolutely nothing of any importance is not interesting.

You need an antagonist, a conflict, some stakes that matter, something to overcome. Not a movie that boils down to "Let's just have a Tournament with a few fun fights" as an entire movie. It's not interesting and it's not new. It'd be an entire movie where nothing at all would matter in any way.

[ABED]

Again why did Battle of Z sell 620,000 copies but Xenoverse sell over 4 million copies when they both belong to the same brand?

I don't and neither do you.

No it isn't. They all have fun battles anyway. A movie about a Tournament that started because of food and what resulted in absolutely nothing of any importance is not interesting.

To you, it's not interesting to YOU.

You need an antagonist, a conflict, some stakes that matter, something to overcome. Not a movie that boils down to "Let's just have a Tournament with a few fun fights" as an entire movie. It's not interesting and it's not new. It'd be an entire movie where nothing at all would matter in any way.

Champa was the antagonist, Earth was the stake. Even in the retellings, they aren't the same, just shorter. They make changes to the story. The transformations aren't new to DB either. And it's just a movie. The movies aren't that long. How can it sustain an entire arc, but not a movie with significantly less screen time?

Over the long haul, no, it's not enough, but for one movie, it is. Just like you can't have brand new transformations every single episode. After a while it won't sustain. But for one movie, it's fine.

[Kanassa]

The Universe 6 probably wouldn't have worked as a movie being as it's just a Tournament with the majority of it being fighting. There wasn't much in the way of story or stakes either like you mentioned.

Fighting IS a story.

Also, you don't need the threat of death looming for there to be stakes. As long as the characters are invested in not losing, there are stakes.

[ABED]

Agreed. Years ago, death in a TV show was rare. Then a few shows started bucking that trend and it made you feel like no one was safe and anything could happen. Now, death happens all the time and it doesn't have nearly the impact it once did. Life and death isn't the only stake that matters.

[Bullza]

I don't and neither do you.

Oh I know exactly why it sold vastly more, many would.

Champa was the antagonist, Earth was the stake. Even in the retellings, they aren't the same, just shorter.

Champa was not the antagonist to the main heroes. He had a petty feud with the supporting character, Beerus.

Earth was never at stake, there were zero stakes to be had. Goku even commented in the series that it makes no difference to them at all if they lose. It would be a movie where nobody was at any risk of dying and it would revolve around a Tournament where it makes no difference whatsoever who wins or loses.

A movie with no consequence or significance to anything is not interesting.

They make changes to the story. The transformations aren't new to DB either. And it's just a movie. The movies aren't that long. How can it sustain an entire arc, but not a movie with significantly less screen time?

They'd have to make radical changes if it were to have worked as a movie. It worked for the series because it had a change in tone from what immediately preceded it. It's​ not trying to get you to part with your money.

The series was able to break up the fights a bit with a lot of the commentary inbetween. Fights were long enough that you actually got to know a bit about the character. They'd be too restricted in a movie.

[ABED]

Oh I know exactly why it sold vastly more, many would.

That's merely conjecture.

A movie with no consequence or significance to anything is not interesting.

Life and death aren't the only stakes, and in DB, death is pretty cheap to begin with. The thrill of the fight is significant to our heroes as it's what matters most to them. And we go back to what is interesting is a matter of taste.

They'd have to make radical changes if it were to have worked as a movie. It worked for the series because it had a change in tone from what immediately preceded it. It's​ not trying to get you to part with your money.

And you know why it worked, yet again. It's like you are trying to boil things down into some universal truths about why certain things work, but you wind up being overly simplistic.

The series was able to break up the fights a bit with a lot of the commentary inbetween. Fights were long enough that you actually got to know a bit about the character. They'd be too restricted in a movie.

There wouldn't be as many fights and while there is greater time restriction, that could just mean they get to the point quicker instead of dragging out each fight to fill an episode. A good writer can make it work.

[Kanassa]

It would be a movie where nobody was at any risk of dying

And?Why does there have to be a risk of death? The risk of losing is enough when the characters themselves care about it, especially when for Beerus it means he has to ge the crappy earth.

[Bullza]

That's merely conjecture

Don't be silly, anyone here can tell you why Xenoverse vastly outsold Battle of Z.

Life and death aren't the only stakes, and in DB, death is pretty cheap to begin with. The thrill of the fight is significant to our heroes as it's what matters most to them.

I know, but there are no other stakes. If Goku himself doesn't care if they actually lose then why should anyone? Them being excited for a fight when they always are doesn't affect a paying audience.

It's like you are trying to boil things down into some universal truths about why certain things work, but you wind up being overly simplistic.

That's because it is simple. Movies follow a basic story structure, the Universe 6 saga does not have a structure that would work for a movie. When what is happening on screen doesn't matter at all then it's no good.

There wouldn't be as many fights and while there is greater time restriction, that could just mean they get to the point quicker instead of dragging out each fight to fill an episode. A good writer can make it work.

It would only really work if they changed up entirely what they fighting for. In the Universe Survival they are fighting for the sake of their universe, their very lives. If back then they had a movie a Universe 6 movie then that's what it would have needed.

And if instead of separate 1v1 matches over and over, they had the one big fight where it was 5v5 then you'd have been able to make something out of it.

And?Why does there have to be a risk of death? The risk of losing is enough when the characters themselves care about it, especially when for Beerus it means he has to ge the crappy earth.

There doesn't have to be a risk of death specifically but there needs to be some kind of consequence. What they are doing has to matter otherwise what's the point in it even happening.

It'd be like if in the current Universe Survival saga, the whole thing was just to see who was the last one left and then...got nothing. That instead these people and their universes are going to wiped out and that the winner will get to wish for whatever he wants is what makes the whole thing interesting. It gives it a point.

[Kinokima]

I think the only arc that would be good for a film would be Future Trunks but I definitely do not want to see an arc that we already saw animated. That would be a major disappointment.

[ABED]

The point is that victory matters for our characters. Yeah, the universal survival arc has huge stakes, but smaller stakes works just as well, if not better, because we're emotionally invested in the characters, not universes we don't really know.

I know, but there are no other stakes. If Goku himself doesn't care if they actually lose then why should anyone? Them being excited for a fight when they always are doesn't affect a paying audience.

Goku does care if he loses. Victory matters above pretty much anything. Case in point, he cared more about winning the 23rd Budokai than he did saving the world. How do you know what people are willing to pay for and what affects them?

Movies follow a basic story structure

Okay, they follow a formula, and...? All this tells me is movies follow a formula, not that it's bad to change it up.

When what is happening on screen doesn't matter at all then it's no good.

Matter to whom?

I don't think we're getting a retelling, but I'd rather they stop adding transformations. It's lazy, and at some point, the law of diminishing marginal returns has to set in.

[sintzu]

In your Batman example, Ledger's death was a huge reason for that film's success.

If that was the case then Rises wouldn't have made as much as it did. TDK made a billion because it was a good movie.

[Bullza]

The point is that victory matters for our characters.

Because most of the time they're fighting for the sake of others or their planet or now their universe. That's what makes them interesting and important. Smaller stakes can work for not for a theatrical movie that comes out every few years that people have to pay money for.

Goku does care if he loses.

He said to Beerus that it didn't even matter if they lost because all it would mean is Earth would switch places and Beerus got angry at him for it. It mattered to Beerus if they lost but it didn't matter to the others.

Okay, they follow a formula, and...? All this tells me is movies follow a formula, not that it's bad to change it up.

No it's not the formula, it's the structure that movies follow. They have a start a middle and an end, a conflict that moves the story which is finally resolved at the end of the movie. That way there is a point to the story.

I don't think we're getting a retelling, but I'd rather they stop adding transformations. It's lazy, and at some point, the law of diminishing marginal returns has to set in.

They might not need to add new transformations at this point. I can see why they do but they'd need something major to draw people in. Like what was again mentioned in the latest episode, Goku, Vegeta and the others going to Universe 6 to the original Saiyan homeworks and seeing the King and what not could be that.

[ABED]

In your Batman example, Ledger's death was a huge reason for that film's success.

If that was the case then Rises wouldn't have made as much as it did. TDK made a billion because it was a good movie.

I said A huge reason, not the only. Yes it was good, but being good doesn't equate to box office. Rises was riding the wave of success after TDK. The quality of the film doesn't always mean great box office, otherwise Batman Begins would've done a lot better and Rises would've done worse.

Because most of the time they're fighting for the sake of others or their planet or now their universe. That's what makes them interesting and important. Smaller stakes can work for not for a theatrical movie that comes out every few years that people have to pay money for.

ONce again, interesting TO YOU! I can't stress this enough, your views of what are interesting are yours, not everyone else's. Part of what makes Goku interesting to me and others is that he's not out to save the world, not intentionally.

No it's not the formula, it's the structure that movies follow. They have a start a middle and an end, a conflict that moves the story which is finally resolved at the end of the movie. That way there is a point to the story.

THat's not a structure. That's what every story is. Every story has a conflict, a beginning, middle, and end. A conflict is simply the struggle between two opposing characters or forces. It can be over something as simple as victory in a tournament.

[Bullza]

Then that's out of character. Goku cares if he loses. He's a competitor to his core.

It wasn't about his character. He probably does care if he loses, but it didn't actually matter if he did. If Universe 7 won or lost that Tournament it didn't matter either way to anyone but the supporting character Beerus.

You couldn't have a movie where it revolves around a Tournament that doesn't matter.

ONce again, interesting TO YOU! I can't stress this enough, your views of what are interesting are yours, not everyone else's. Part of what makes Goku interesting is that he's not out to save the world, not intentionally.

Considering that this is how every single one of these movies have played out. Almost every single saga has played out. Most action series in general be they other Shonen anime or Hollywood movies then of course it is interesting to the majority.

You don't get a Marvel movie where there are no stakes or consequences to what's going on or a movie where what is happening just doesn't matter.

Goku may not be out to save the world but it is what he actually does.

THat's not a structure. That's what every story is. Every story has a conflict, a beginning, middle, and end.

Well that is structure. The Universe 6 doesn't have the ideal movie structure. It'd be a movie that would revolve a Tournament that was started because of a non issue, you'd get a whole bunch of fighting where it doesn't really matter who wins and it would end with them wishing back Earth in Universe 6 which again doesn't matter.