Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

Most of the things that I utilize in debates are actual statements and/or feats.

Same here, but people will always have different opinions and interpret things differently. It is good to use statements and feats when debating, but sometimes there isn't enough information to say something for a fact or not.

If character a says character b is stronger than character c, we as fans, should really have no reason to doubt it and/or come back with arguments like: "oh, character c was probably tired," or "character c was nerfed."

I agree for the most part.

as nothing said contradicted Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell in RoF.

Being weaker than a version of Gohan who was weaker than Cell games Gohan does contradict that. Losing to a Frieza soldier also contradicts that.

If you really want to go with the whole "Frieza force was holding them back" argument, we might as well say Roshi is stronger than Piccolo since he, in his exhausted state, pushed back a fresh Frost, whereas Piccolo couldn't do that a fatigued Frost who wasn't nearly as strong as he was against Roshi.

Piccolo actually did push back Frost, blocked his punches with one hand, held him with one arm, and would of won if Frost didn't cheat. In the manga they were fighting pretty evenly as well.

I don't know what bad writing has to do with statements and feats and the absence of anything contradicting them.

I'm basically saying the writers didn't intend for Tagoma to be Cell tier or higher. It's basically if you want to go with in universe scaling or writer's intent. Tbh either could be valid arguments imo.

Super has shown plenty of instances where weaker characters briefly stand as a challenge against vastly superior characters, so the Frieza force briefly stopping Piccolo and Gohan is no surprise here.

True. But you could argue that is a "nerf". What's the point of being strong if you can't use your strength in the story? It doesn't matter if you consider Piccolo below Frieza or above perfect Cell. Either way he couldn't get past Frieza soldiers and got stomped by Tagoma.

Why is it that it seems so easy for you to resort to someone regressing, but you have such a hard time accepting characters grow stronger?

It's the change in strength that's the problem. Let me ask you what is more likely. Piccolo getting 10x weaker over 5 years, or Tagoma getting 10,000-100,000 times stronger in 4 months? I don't even think Frieza got that much stronger in 4 months. I have his gains at around 1,000x.

Again, when Piccolo and Gohan were sparring, they looked equal. Piccolo had probably been training a bit more than Gohan, and that's probably was why he was doing a bit better. This was also unweighted Piccolo. Meaning, it could be something like this:

Piccolo (Unweighted) = Base Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo (weighted)

Ya, and there is a statement by Beerus that base saiyans can't beat Frieza. Even after going ssj Beerus said Frieza is about the best he could do. So like you said above statemetns should be for the most part taken at face value. Logically this means base Gohan is weaker than namek Frieza, unless you can give me an explanation why RoF Gohan's base would be multiple times stronger than a post Buu saga base Goku who was stated to be the strongest in the universe at that point besides Beerus and Whis.

And um, Goku didn't want to take Gohan because Gohan hadn't been taking combat seriously at that time. When Gohan had voluntarily offered to go, Goku was more than ready to toss Piccolo aside.

That was after Gohan said he was training again, which means Gohan was worried about asking a Gohan who hasn't trained. The dub makes this far more clear with Goku clearly not wanting Gohan. I reccomend watching the scene in the dub, because since we can't speak Japanese we might not be able to pick up on the subtleties of their language.

So again, I have no reason not to believe:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > / = SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Ginyu > Tagoma = Super Buu > Base Gohan (RoF) = unweighted Piccolo > Perfect Cell = weighted Piccolo

Because Gohan's base being above Cell is ludicrous, even Gohan in his prime's base isn't near that level and there are multiple statements implying how weak he was.

- Gohan as a whole was "weakened." His SSJ form was never stated to have gotten weaker. So again, I'm not interested in debating against speculations and made up theories.

Gohan's ssj form was never once above Cell, so even if he never got weaker it makes no sense to have him where you have him. Ssj Gohan was weaker than Dabura. And Gohan never trained since then, so there is now way his ssj form magically got stronger.

- First Form Frieza casually defeating SSJ Gohan should only show how powerful Frieza is, not how weak Gohan is.

I would say it's a mix of both.

- Android 18 didn't specify who she was stronger than, so until we get a direct comparison, I don't find it a valid argument.

But Krillin did say he felt safe with Buu and Gohan, and this was before Krillin new Frieza powered up.

[JazzMazz]

Guys, Gohan only got back the power he had in his ultimate form in the Buu arc in episode 88. The entire point of the episode is that its this big return to form for Gohan as a fighter and they make that admantly clear throughout the episode that his only reached his previous peak. The entire point of the end of the episode is basically saying that even though Gohan has gotten back to where he was, he can still go further than that.

Aside from the quotes about his original power, which you need a to do a massive amount of overthinking to dis-credit, there is also this scene when Gohan is actually going ultimate that directly tells us that his only re-awakening the power he used against Buu at that point, and there is nothing to suggest he had surpassed that power.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[supercat]

Most of the things that I utilize in debates are actual statements and/or feats.

Same here, but people will always have different opinions and interpret things differently. It is good to use statements and feats when debating, but sometimes there isn't enough information to say something for a fact or not.

If character a says character b is stronger than character c, we as fans, should really have no reason to doubt it and/or come back with arguments like: "oh, character c was probably tired," or "character c was nerfed."

I agree for the most part.

as nothing said contradicted Piccolo > / = Perfect Cell in RoF.

Being weaker than a version of Gohan who was weaker than Cell games Gohan does contradict that. Losing to a Frieza soldier also contradicts that.

If you really want to go with the whole "Frieza force was holding them back" argument, we might as well say Roshi is stronger than Piccolo since he, in his exhausted state, pushed back a fresh Frost, whereas Piccolo couldn't do that a fatigued Frost who wasn't nearly as strong as he was against Roshi.

Piccolo actually did push back Frost, blocked his punches with one hand, held him with one arm, and would of won if Frost didn't cheat. In the manga they were fighting pretty evenly as well.

I don't know what bad writing has to do with statements and feats and the absence of anything contradicting them.

I'm basically saying the writers didn't intend for Tagoma to be Cell tier or higher. It's basically if you want to go with in universe scaling or writer's intent. Tbh either could be valid arguments imo.

Super has shown plenty of instances where weaker characters briefly stand as a challenge against vastly superior characters, so the Frieza force briefly stopping Piccolo and Gohan is no surprise here.

True. But you could argue that is a "nerf". What's the point of being strong if you can't use your strength in the story? It doesn't matter if you consider Piccolo below Frieza or above perfect Cell. Either way he couldn't get past Frieza soldiers and got stomped by Tagoma.

Why is it that it seems so easy for you to resort to someone regressing, but you have such a hard time accepting characters grow stronger?

It's the change in strength that's the problem. Let me ask you what is more likely. Piccolo getting 10x weaker over 5 years, or Tagoma getting 10,000-100,000 times stronger in 4 months? I don't even think Frieza got that much stronger in 4 months. I have his gains at around 1,000x.

Again, when Piccolo and Gohan were sparring, they looked equal. Piccolo had probably been training a bit more than Gohan, and that's probably was why he was doing a bit better. This was also unweighted Piccolo. Meaning, it could be something like this:

Piccolo (Unweighted) = Base Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo (weighted)

Ya, and there is a statement by Beerus that base saiyans can't beat Frieza. Even after going ssj Beerus said Frieza is about the best he could do. So like you said above statemetns should be for the most part taken at face value. Logically this means base Gohan is weaker than namek Frieza, unless you can give me an explanation why RoF Gohan's base would be multiple times stronger than a post Buu saga base Goku who was stated to be the strongest in the universe at that point besides Beerus and Whis.

And um, Goku didn't want to take Gohan because Gohan hadn't been taking combat seriously at that time. When Gohan had voluntarily offered to go, Goku was more than ready to toss Piccolo aside.

That was after Gohan said he was training again, which means Gohan was worried about asking a Gohan who hasn't trained. The dub makes this far more clear with Goku clearly not wanting Gohan. I reccomend watching the scene in the dub, because since we can't speak Japanese we might not be able to pick up on the subtleties of their language.

So again, I have no reason not to believe:

Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > / = SSJ Gohan (RoF) > Ginyu > Tagoma = Super Buu > Base Gohan (RoF) = unweighted Piccolo > Perfect Cell = weighted Piccolo

Because Gohan's base being above Cell is ludicrous, even Gohan in his prime's base isn't near that level and there are multiple statements implying how weak he was.

- Gohan as a whole was "weakened." His SSJ form was never stated to have gotten weaker. So again, I'm not interested in debating against speculations and made up theories.

Gohan's ssj form was never once above Cell, so even if he never got weaker it makes no sense to have him where you have him. Ssj Gohan was weaker than Dabura. And Gohan never trained since then, so there is now way his ssj form magically got stronger.

- First Form Frieza casually defeating SSJ Gohan should only show how powerful Frieza is, not how weak Gohan is.

I would say it's a mix of both.

- Android 18 didn't specify who she was stronger than, so until we get a direct comparison, I don't find it a valid argument.

But Krillin did say he felt safe with Buu and Gohan, and this was before Krillin new Frieza powered up.

I'm going to address each and every one of your points.

1. When character a literally says character b is stronger than character c, then that's all the information that is typically needed to decipher what is going on. This reminds me of how people question which form of Frieza Supreme Kai was referring to. Let me put it this way, from an out-of-universe standpoint, comparing two characters while one is suppressed, exhausted, or just not at their best, really doesn't serve a purpose.

2. If you agree for the most part, why are you questioning Base Gohan > Piccolo?

3. Gohan being weaker than RoF Gohan is your speculation and has not been confirmed by the show. Seriously, if we can't agree on this, and it seems like we can't, we may as well not debate anymore. We're going in circles, and I've already pointed out all my reasons (consisting of statements) as to why RoF Gohan is far superior to his Cell Saga self.

4. Piccolo was fresh, Frost was exhausted. On the contrary, the Frost that faced off against Roshi was fresh and Roshi was exhausted and barely standing. Hit had also mentioned Frost had gotten stronger.

All in all, Frost was at a major disadvantage against Piccolo, yet it was quite the opposite against Roshi. No debate there. And Piccolo's performance, even if he did just as well as Roshi, doesn't take away from the fact that, Roshi, a character who is supposedly a fraction of Frost's power still managed to push him back. In fact, this is a lot harder to fathom for me than some Frieza Force member briefly blocking Piccolo and Gohan, especially when neither Piccolo nor Gohan took any damage from that whatsoever.

5. How do you know what the writers intended and didn't intend? Again, another baseless assumption that leads to pile of nothing.

6. And it doesn't matter if Roshi is below Final Form Frieza (Namek) he still pushed back Frost. You see how open ended all of your arguments are?

7. Tagoma didn't power up nearly as much as Frieza did in my opinion. And Tagoma getting stronger is a fact and was a very important point that had been elaborated on. Piccolo getting weaker? Never once mentioned. To what degree Tagoma got stronger isn't as important as the fact that his increase was mentioned and Piccolo's so-called regression wasn't. So to answer your question, Tagoma getting 1,000-10,0000 stronger is more likely since an unspecified increase actually did take place.

8. Beerus' statement was about Base Goku. What does Base Gohan have to do with Base Goku? Base Gohan had all of his potential brought out by Elder Kai. He didn't really need to go SSJ like Goku and Vegeta. A simple kiai is all it takes for him to go full power. Without training, the potential that was unleashed probably needed to be brought out by SSJ, as Gohan probably lost the ability to go full power with just a mere kiai. A bit of speculating there, but it makes sense, and goes rather well with all the other statements.

9. No, Goku was about tell Piccolo to get lost until Gohan saved his mentor the embarrassment by telling them all he had other matters to attend to.

10. What seems ludicrous is not relevant here one bit. If Base Gohan was stated to be above Piccolo, who at the minimum should be around Perfect Cell, there's nothing ludicrous about it. Why not just enjoy it for what it is, instead of trying to cram everyone into some odd power scale convoluted with an incessant amount of theories and speculations?

11. Again, Gohan lost the Elder Kai power up, or the ability to go Ultimate Gohan with a simple kiai. And because of that, he probably needed SSJ to tap into the power he once had in the Buu saga. Do you remember how Gohan asked Elder Kai if he needs to go SSJ? and Elder Kai indicated that he does not and a mere kiai would be sufficient? Yeah, that's because this is right after his potential was unleashed. A lack of training probably took away from this, resulting in Gohan needing SSJ again.

12. Okay so going by what Krillin said, it should be Android 18 > Buu right?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think this recent discussion on Gohan from Resurrection of F is indicative of a lot of clear fundamental differences between how we all treat scenes and dialogue in this franchise.

For example, being blocked off by generic mooks from your allies was misconstrued as a sign of power decrease, when, from a writing standpoint, it was most likely done just to provide tension and isolate Krillin for some character development. We even see later that even Krillin was always above these Freeza soldiers once he was given a pep talk by Roshi and actually tried.

And with dialogue, English subtitles and dubs can often fail to account for the linguistic cultural differences and context of the original Japanese. For example, where Gohan commented on the struggle of his father against Freeza beforehand and mentioning how much more powerful the tyrant is, it has been misconstrued as a sign of power decrease, when, from a writing standpoint, it was most likely done to comment on how much Gohan's current struggle against the newly powered-up Freeza mirrors that of Goku's back on Namek.

And these interpretations are still just my own. Unfortunately, that's the price we pay for being power-scalers. We get worked up over "no, that's not how it is" and "actually, yes it is".

[Bullza]

Let me put it this way, from an out-of-universe standpoint, comparing two characters while one is suppressed, exhausted, or just not at their best, really doesn't serve a purpose.

This is true. The same thing happens when people talk of Dabura.

Goku tells Supreme Kai that Dabura was about as strong as Cell. So that should mean he was as strong as Cell as we last saw him, when he was last a threat. Though you see people all the time place Cell above Dabura and then have him comparable to some point way before when Cell was using a suppressed amount of power during a specific point.

[dragon boss z]

1. When character a literally says character b is stronger than character c, then that's all the information that is typically needed to decipher what is going on. This reminds me of how people question which form of Frieza Supreme Kai was referring to. Let me put it this way, from an out-of-universe standpoint, comparing two characters while one is suppressed, exhausted, or just not at their best, really doesn't serve a purpose.

I agree, and if anything that only helps my argument as it suggests namek Frieza is above a full powered BoG saga base Goku, and even comparable to his ssj form (though I will agree that line didn't make sense).

2. If you agree for the most part, why are you questioning Base Gohan > Piccolo?

I'm not for the RoF arc. Though there are statements implying Piccolo is stronger than base Gohan, for example him saying he will train Gohan again, implying he is stronger, then in ep 30 he seemed stronger. Also feats are always greater than statements. In ep 30 Gohan was tired while Piccolo wasn't. That tells me in ep 30 Piccolo was stronger than base Gohan.

3. Gohan being weaker than RoF Gohan is your speculation and has not been confirmed by the show. Seriously, if we can't agree on this, and it seems like we can't, we may as well not debate anymore. We're going in circles, and I've already pointed out all my reasons (consisting of statements) as to why RoF Gohan is far superior to his Cell Saga self.

I don't remember any statments you gave to prove Gohan is stronger than his Cell saga self. Were they to someone else in this thread? Here are the statements I remember in that arc
-Gohan said he hasn't been keeping up on his training
-Gohan said he thinks he can "probably" still go ssj
-He thinks he can take some of Frieza's men, but he didn't seem 100% sure (which would make no sense to question if he was stronger than his Cell games self)

4. Piccolo was fresh, Frost was exhausted. On the contrary, the Frost that faced off against Roshi was fresh and Roshi was exhausted and barely standing. Hit had also mentioned Frost had gotten stronger.

Getting punched a few times by a holding back ssj Goku is nothing. Frieza fought Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Vegeta again, Goku, got hit by a spirit bomb, and still had enough power to go 100% and fight ssj Goku. If Frost gets so tired he can't fight someone weaker than himself after a few blows from a holding back Goku, then he really needs to do some cardio.

5. How do you know what the writers intended and didn't intend? Again, another baseless assumption that leads to pile of nothing.

By character statements. Also lines from the movie. And while I obviously can't be for certain what the writers truly intended, I can infer.

6. And it doesn't matter if Roshi is below Final Form Frieza (Namek) he still pushed back Frost. You see how open ended all of your arguments are?

I mean I guess it means namke Frieza should be able to push Frost back too. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Frost was supposed to be namek Frieza tier. I mean he ran away from 18 and there is a statement in the anime and manga implying Frost hasn't trained and if he does maybe he could reach RoF Frieza level. I think I mentioned this before, but I personally don't have Frost that low.

7. Tagoma didn't power up nearly as much as Frieza did in my opinion. And Tagoma getting stronger is a fact and was a very important point that had been elaborated on. Piccolo getting weaker? Never once mentioned. To what degree Tagoma got stronger isn't as important as the fact that his increase was mentioned and Piccolo's so-called regression wasn't. So to answer your question, Tagoma getting 1,000-10,0000 stronger is more likely since an unspecified increase actually did take place.

I have a few arguments on why Tagoma couldn't' feasibly get that strong that quick. For one thing it means that Tagoma got stronger than a ssj could even after a year of ROSAT training. Goku, who was already a ssj for years and had years of training went into a special training place (ROSAT) to train for a whole year and he still couldn't beat Cell. Even after another 8 years after that ssj Goku could arguably still not beat super perfect Cell. So basically saying Tagoma getting that strong that quick means he has more potential than a ssj, which again, probably wasn't intended.

Also I said 10,000-100,000 times stronger. If Tagoma only got 1,000 times stronger that would put him at 20-30 million. 10,000x stronger would put him at 200-300 million. So you who have him above perfect Cell to Buu level that would be at least 2-3 billion 100,000x stronger. And some people say he got buu saga mystic Gohan level, which would be 1 million times stronger in 4 months...

8. Beerus' statement was about Base Goku. What does Base Gohan have to do with Base Goku? Base Gohan had all of his potential brought out by Elder Kai. He didn't really need to go SSJ like Goku and Vegeta. A simple kiai is all it takes for him to go full power. Without training, the potential that was unleashed probably needed to be brought out by SSJ, as Gohan probably lost the ability to go full power with just a mere kiai. A bit of speculating there, but it makes sense, and goes rather well with all the other statements.

It has already been made clear recently hat mystic is a transformation, not a power up of base form. It may of raised his base forms power as well when he got his potential unlocked, but there is nothing indicating it got exponentially stronger.

9. No, Goku was about tell Piccolo to get lost until Gohan saved his mentor the embarrassment by telling them all he had other matters to attend to.

Because Gohan said he was training again. I already mentioned this. Goku was worried about an untrained Gohan participating, he knows a trained Gohan is above Piccolo.

10. What seems ludicrous is not relevant here one bit. If Base Gohan was stated to be above Piccolo, who at the minimum should be around Perfect Cell, there's nothing ludicrous about it. Why not just enjoy it for what it is, instead of trying to cram everyone into some odd power scale convoluted with an incessant amount of theories and speculations?

First off even if Piccolo didn't get weaker at all, there is absolutely no evidence he was even near perfect Cell level at that point. There isn't even any proof he was above semi perfect Cell level. Really, there is no proof he is even above imperfect Cell post absorption.
Second off, you may not consider it a problem, but for anyone who likes semi good writing, having a Frieza soldier surpassing perfect Cell by getting beaten up for 4 months is a big problem. It completely takes away from all of their training that they did and makes the Z fighters look like garbage.

11. Again, Gohan lost the Elder Kai power up, or the ability to go Ultimate Gohan with a simple kiai. And because of that, he probably needed SSJ to tap into the power he once had in the Buu saga. Do you remember how Gohan asked Elder Kai if he needs to go SSJ? and Elder Kai indicated that he does not and a mere kiai would be sufficient? Yeah, that's because this is right after his potential was unleashed. A lack of training probably took away from this, resulting in Gohan needing SSJ again.

I actually thought this was the case originally, but the ToP arc shuts that theory down. Piccolo confirms even as a ssj2 post training for a while Gohan was still nowhere near his power in the Buu saga and only reached it again right before the ToP.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

12. Okay so going by what Krillin said, it should be Android 18 > Buu right?

Nothing Krillin said, or I implied what he said indicated that at all... The only statement that might of is 18's statement, not Krillins. And like yous aid it doesn't mention exactly who she is talking about. However later in the episode when they find out Buu isn't coming Roshi says "so much for my let Buu handle it plan" pretty much confirming Buu is the strongest.

[dragon boss z]

For example, being blocked off by generic mooks from your allies was misconstrued as a sign of power decrease, when, from a writing standpoint, it was most likely done just to provide tension and isolate Krillin for some character development. We even see later that even Krillin was always above these Freeza soldiers once he was given a pep talk by Roshi and actually tried.

I agree it was used to build tension, but it confuses the audience when super powerful characters get stopped by extremely weak characters. And even if you ignore that in the movie Piccolo took off his weighted clothes to fight the soliders and ate a senzu bean afterwards. And those were the same soldiers that got eaten by a big fish. But pretty much what I've been saying is this all comes down to poor writing. It's hard to have good debates on powerscaling when the writers don't care about it at all. Also different writers for every episode is another issue.

And with dialogue, English subtitles and dubs can often fail to account for the linguistic cultural differences and context of the original Japanese. For example, where Gohan commented on the struggle of his father against Freeza beforehand and mentioning how much more powerful the tyrant is, it has been misconstrued as a sign of power decrease, when, from a writing standpoint, it was most likely done to comment on how much Gohan's current struggle against the newly powered-up Freeza mirrors that of Goku's back on Namek.

Yes, you are right there may be a language barrier. I was going off the english dub, which imo had Gohan clearly compare himself to Namek Goku, as there would be no point in saying what he did if that wasn't the case. The Japanese version may of presented the line in a different way.

And these interpretations are still just my own. Unfortunately, that's the price we pay for being power-scalers. We get worked up over "no, that's not how it is" and "actually, yes it is".

I agree with you here. In dragon ball, especially in Super, things are up to interpretation.

[HeroR]

Let me put it this way, from an out-of-universe standpoint, comparing two characters while one is suppressed, exhausted, or just not at their best, really doesn't serve a purpose.

This is true. The same thing happens when people talk of Dabura.

Goku tells Supreme Kai that Dabura was about as strong as Cell. So that should mean he was as strong as Cell as we last saw him, when he was last a threat. Though you see people all the time place Cell above Dabura and then have him comparable to some point way before when Cell was using a suppressed amount of power during a specific point.

That is pretty much the reason why there is a giant debate if Goku meant Super Perfect Cell or Full Powered Perfect Cell. From in-universe, why would Goku compared Dabura to a weaker version of Cell? Especially one who doubled his strength before dying? Of course, this goes into the whole, was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, not touching that one.

At least the GT line about Rildo, "He's as strong as Majin Buu" is more debatable since Goku could be talking about Kid Buu since he trained Uub and that was the last Buu form Goku fought or Super Buu with all his fusions since that is the most powerful version of Buu. Could also mean Mr. Buu.

[Xehanort]

In terms of power levels in Super, all I really want to know is how powerful Jiren actually is. He's the mortal that can surpass a God of Destruction, which really makes me wonder how the hell he reached that level. I gotta start doing some meditation

And what about Ultra Instinct Goku? He seemed somewhat on-par with Jiren, but I found it strange that Jiren was able to dodge the first fick and stop that last punch so easily (even if he was losing that form). He completely shattered the laws of time by beating the s*** out of Hit too.

[Ziegander]

So, I just had this thought this morning. Zenkai. Anyone think they're gonna go the zenkai route with Goku and have him be more powerful than ever when he gets his energy and the Ultra Instinct back? It's got my spider-sense tingling.

And speaking of power-scaling, just how strong do you guys think the potential Kale/Caulifla fusion is going to be?! Going by the assumption that base Caulifla is competitive with base Goku, but not his equal, when she goes SSJ2 she's something like 500 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku was in the Buu Saga, impressive. And there's really no telling how strong Kale's Berserker form is except that it's anywhere between maybe twice that strong all the way up to rivaling SSB Goku (however much stronger that actually is...). If Kafla can use the Berserker form, then, we could have a real powerhouse on our hands, should be easily stronger than SSBKKx20 and by a pretty wide margin, probably at least equivalent to something like SSBKKx100 or even x200. Now, would even something like that be enough to challenge Jiren? Hmm... I'm assuming no, since Goku probably is the one to defeat him, but she should give Jiren a good fight. Better than SSBKKx20, obviously, and better than Hit.

[Doctor.]

Can't believe I forgot to point out that we have definite proof that the base Saiyans' power has been retconned. Base Vegeta and base Cabba were even back in the universe 6 tournament. This Vegeta was stronger than the F arc Vegeta who was even with base Goku who, in turn, was even with final form Freeza. Logic would dictate that base Cabba and Freeza are equals yet Freeza tanked all his hits like absolutely nothing.

Freeza couldn't have gotten stronger physically either, all he did was master his golden form and unlock its maximum potential.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Can't believe I forgot to point out that we have definite proof that the base Saiyans' power has been retconned. Base Vegeta and base Cabba were even back in the universe 6 tournament. This Vegeta was stronger than the F arc Vegeta who was even with base Goku who, in turn, was even with final form Freeza. Logic would dictate that base Cabba and Freeza are equals yet Freeza tanked all his hits like absolutely nothing.

Freeza couldn't have gotten stronger physically either, all he did was master his golden form and unlock its maximum potential.

A few things. Freeza merely blocked base Cabba's hits with his one hand. As the previous episode explicitly told us, blocking hits reduces most of the damage one receives.

And Cabba only landed a clean hit on Freeza when he went SS2, at which point Freeza simply went Golden and tanked the blast like it was nothing.

As well, mental training is a noted way for getting stronger or at least conditioning oneself; Piccolo does this, Jiren does this, Future Trunks does this, and even Gohan did this when he was finished with his Ultimate potential's improvement beyond its original limits with Piccolo. He very much could've gotten stronger as a whole in addition to removing his Golden Evolution's draining problem.

[Doctor.]

Freeza merely blocked base Cabba's hits with his one hand.

Honestly cannot see how you can spin this in Cabba's favor. Freeza blocked base Cabba's hits with one hand easily without any kind of strain, then kicked him back and held his face to the wall. The same Cabba was equal to Vegeta, by Vegeta's own word, and that U6 arc Vegeta was (very likely) stronger than final form Freeza. If battle powers were the same, then Freeza would have much more difficulty dealing with Cabba.

And Cabba only landed a clean hit on Freeza when he went SS2, at which point Freeza simply went Golden and tanked the blast like it was nothing.

I don't really care about this because I was talking about base form Cabba and how he helps us know whether or not the base strength of Goku and Vegeta has gotten retconned.

As well, mental training is a noted way for getting stronger or at least conditioning oneself; Piccolo does this, Jiren does this, Future Trunks does this, and even Gohan did this when he was finished with his Ultimate potential's improvement beyond its original limits with Piccolo. He very much could've gotten stronger as a whole in addition to removing his Golden Evolution's draining problem.

If that's the case, then Goku would have noted that Freeza has gotten stronger. He only noticed a change in Freeza's power once he powered-up in his Golden form after explaining how he got rid of the stamina issue.

[emperior]

Can't believe I forgot to point out that we have definite proof that the base Saiyans' power has been retconned. Base Vegeta and base Cabba were even back in the universe 6 tournament. This Vegeta was stronger than the F arc Vegeta who was even with base Goku who, in turn, was even with final form Freeza. Logic would dictate that base Cabba and Freeza are equals yet Freeza tanked all his hits like absolutely nothing.

Freeza couldn't have gotten stronger physically either, all he did was master his golden form and unlock its maximum potential.

I could say that Cabba was exhausted, but as a SSJ2, even if exhausted, he was stronger than Freeza.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Freeza merely blocked base Cabba's hits with his one hand.

Honestly cannot see how you can spin this in Cabba's favor. Freeza blocked base Cabba's hits with one hand easily without any kind of strain, then kicked him back and held his face to the wall. The same Cabba was equal to Vegeta, by Vegeta's own word, and that U6 arc Vegeta was (very likely) stronger than final form Freeza. If battle powers were the same, then Freeza would have much more difficulty dealing with Cabba.

And Cabba only landed a clean hit on Freeza when he went SS2, at which point Freeza simply went Golden and tanked the blast like it was nothing.

I don't really care about this because I was talking about base form Cabba and how he helps us know whether or not the base strength of Goku and Vegeta has gotten retconned.

As well, mental training is a noted way for getting stronger or at least conditioning oneself; Piccolo does this, Jiren does this, Future Trunks does this, and even Gohan did this when he was finished with his Ultimate potential's improvement beyond its original limits with Piccolo. He very much could've gotten stronger as a whole in addition to removing his Golden Evolution's draining problem.

If that's the case, then Goku would have noted that Freeza has gotten stronger. He only noticed a change in Freeza's power once he powered-up in his Golden form after explaining how he got rid of the stamina issue.

Piccolo also easily blocked Frost's hits with one hand despite clearly being weaker than him. Again, blocking hits reduces damage. Only the monstrously more powerful Jiren could do significant damage to Hit even when he was solidly blocking. As well, Freeza was constantly backing up as he was blocking Cabba's hits, a noted martial arts technique for reducing the impact of blows, something even Piccolo did against Frost. Thus, I don't factor in that bout of blocking, much like you don't factor in Golden Freeza tanking SS2 Cabba's blast.

As well, we have past precedence regarding the "stronger as a whole VS. in a form". What was noted about Goku and Gohan after they came out of the Room of Spirit & Time was that they didn't have the intensity of Super Saiyan going on despite clearly being in the form. However, it's relatively clear that, even after merely removing the drain of SS and not explicitly powering up the form itself, Goku and Gohan were the strongest Z-Warriors around. Although people still argue to this day that FPSS has a different multiplier, there's plenty of evidence that goes against this notion. I think it applies pretty well here, because Freeza didn't display his true power until he unveiled his True Golden Evolution, much like how we didn't realize just how strong FPSS Goku was until he fought Perfect Cell.

[supercat]

1. When character a literally says character b is stronger than character c, then that's all the information that is typically needed to decipher what is going on. This reminds me of how people question which form of Frieza Supreme Kai was referring to. Let me put it this way, from an out-of-universe standpoint, comparing two characters while one is suppressed, exhausted, or just not at their best, really doesn't serve a purpose.

I agree, and if anything that only helps my argument as it suggests namek Frieza is above a full powered BoG saga base Goku, and even comparable to his ssj form (though I will agree that line didn't make sense).

2. If you agree for the most part, why are you questioning Base Gohan > Piccolo?

I'm not for the RoF arc. Though there are statements implying Piccolo is stronger than base Gohan, for example him saying he will train Gohan again, implying he is stronger, then in ep 30 he seemed stronger. Also feats are always greater than statements. In ep 30 Gohan was tired while Piccolo wasn't. That tells me in ep 30 Piccolo was stronger than base Gohan.

3. Gohan being weaker than RoF Gohan is your speculation and has not been confirmed by the show. Seriously, if we can't agree on this, and it seems like we can't, we may as well not debate anymore. We're going in circles, and I've already pointed out all my reasons (consisting of statements) as to why RoF Gohan is far superior to his Cell Saga self.

I don't remember any statments you gave to prove Gohan is stronger than his Cell saga self. Were they to someone else in this thread? Here are the statements I remember in that arc
-Gohan said he hasn't been keeping up on his training
-Gohan said he thinks he can "probably" still go ssj
-He thinks he can take some of Frieza's men, but he didn't seem 100% sure (which would make no sense to question if he was stronger than his Cell games self)

4. Piccolo was fresh, Frost was exhausted. On the contrary, the Frost that faced off against Roshi was fresh and Roshi was exhausted and barely standing. Hit had also mentioned Frost had gotten stronger.

Getting punched a few times by a holding back ssj Goku is nothing. Frieza fought Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Vegeta again, Goku, got hit by a spirit bomb, and still had enough power to go 100% and fight ssj Goku. If Frost gets so tired he can't fight someone weaker than himself after a few blows from a holding back Goku, then he really needs to do some cardio.

5. How do you know what the writers intended and didn't intend? Again, another baseless assumption that leads to pile of nothing.

By character statements. Also lines from the movie. And while I obviously can't be for certain what the writers truly intended, I can infer.

6. And it doesn't matter if Roshi is below Final Form Frieza (Namek) he still pushed back Frost. You see how open ended all of your arguments are?

I mean I guess it means namke Frieza should be able to push Frost back too. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Frost was supposed to be namek Frieza tier. I mean he ran away from 18 and there is a statement in the anime and manga implying Frost hasn't trained and if he does maybe he could reach RoF Frieza level. I think I mentioned this before, but I personally don't have Frost that low.

7. Tagoma didn't power up nearly as much as Frieza did in my opinion. And Tagoma getting stronger is a fact and was a very important point that had been elaborated on. Piccolo getting weaker? Never once mentioned. To what degree Tagoma got stronger isn't as important as the fact that his increase was mentioned and Piccolo's so-called regression wasn't. So to answer your question, Tagoma getting 1,000-10,0000 stronger is more likely since an unspecified increase actually did take place.

I have a few arguments on why Tagoma couldn't' feasibly get that strong that quick. For one thing it means that Tagoma got stronger than a ssj could even after a year of ROSAT training. Goku, who was already a ssj for years and had years of training went into a special training place (ROSAT) to train for a whole year and he still couldn't beat Cell. Even after another 8 years after that ssj Goku could arguably still not beat super perfect Cell. So basically saying Tagoma getting that strong that quick means he has more potential than a ssj, which again, probably wasn't intended.

Also I said 10,000-100,000 times stronger. If Tagoma only got 1,000 times stronger that would put him at 20-30 million. 10,000x stronger would put him at 200-300 million. So you who have him above perfect Cell to Buu level that would be at least 2-3 billion 100,000x stronger. And some people say he got buu saga mystic Gohan level, which would be 1 million times stronger in 4 months...

8. Beerus' statement was about Base Goku. What does Base Gohan have to do with Base Goku? Base Gohan had all of his potential brought out by Elder Kai. He didn't really need to go SSJ like Goku and Vegeta. A simple kiai is all it takes for him to go full power. Without training, the potential that was unleashed probably needed to be brought out by SSJ, as Gohan probably lost the ability to go full power with just a mere kiai. A bit of speculating there, but it makes sense, and goes rather well with all the other statements.

It has already been made clear recently hat mystic is a transformation, not a power up of base form. It may of raised his base forms power as well when he got his potential unlocked, but there is nothing indicating it got exponentially stronger.

9. No, Goku was about tell Piccolo to get lost until Gohan saved his mentor the embarrassment by telling them all he had other matters to attend to.

Because Gohan said he was training again. I already mentioned this. Goku was worried about an untrained Gohan participating, he knows a trained Gohan is above Piccolo.

10. What seems ludicrous is not relevant here one bit. If Base Gohan was stated to be above Piccolo, who at the minimum should be around Perfect Cell, there's nothing ludicrous about it. Why not just enjoy it for what it is, instead of trying to cram everyone into some odd power scale convoluted with an incessant amount of theories and speculations?

First off even if Piccolo didn't get weaker at all, there is absolutely no evidence he was even near perfect Cell level at that point. There isn't even any proof he was above semi perfect Cell level. Really, there is no proof he is even above imperfect Cell post absorption.
Second off, you may not consider it a problem, but for anyone who likes semi good writing, having a Frieza soldier surpassing perfect Cell by getting beaten up for 4 months is a big problem. It completely takes away from all of their training that they did and makes the Z fighters look like garbage.

11. Again, Gohan lost the Elder Kai power up, or the ability to go Ultimate Gohan with a simple kiai. And because of that, he probably needed SSJ to tap into the power he once had in the Buu saga. Do you remember how Gohan asked Elder Kai if he needs to go SSJ? and Elder Kai indicated that he does not and a mere kiai would be sufficient? Yeah, that's because this is right after his potential was unleashed. A lack of training probably took away from this, resulting in Gohan needing SSJ again.

I actually thought this was the case originally, but the ToP arc shuts that theory down. Piccolo confirms even as a ssj2 post training for a while Gohan was still nowhere near his power in the Buu saga and only reached it again right before the ToP.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

12. Okay so going by what Krillin said, it should be Android 18 > Buu right?

Nothing Krillin said, or I implied what he said indicated that at all... The only statement that might of is 18's statement, not Krillins. And like yous aid it doesn't mention exactly who she is talking about. However later in the episode when they find out Buu isn't coming Roshi says "so much for my let Buu handle it plan" pretty much confirming Buu is the strongest.

1. What does Namek Frieza > Base Goku (start of Super) have to do with Base Gohan (RoF)? Let's try to stay on topic, rather than try and compare two characters whose base forms probably aren't even close to one another.

2. Feats are greater than statements huh? So going by that logic, Roshi > / = Piccolo right? I mean why not? Roshi was completely out of energy, yet he was still able to push back Frost, who was not only stronger since his battle with Piccolo, but was completely fresh. Piccolo on the other hand, couldn't really do the same against a weakened Frost, who had just been pummeled by Goku just moments before. So no, feats do not outweigh statements.

3. And... I don't remember any statements indicating Gohan was weaker than his Cell saga self. Just that he wasn't at his best. As far as I know, Cell saga Gohan was not his best. Gohan's uncertainty about some of Frieza's men was likely pertaining to Tagoma or the fact that he just didn't want to underestimate in general.

4. Still doesn't change the fact that Roshi was completely drained when he was able to push back Frost, someone who is far above him. So this analogy really doesn't help support the whole Piccolo and Gohan were held back by some grunts on the Frieza Force argument at all.

5. We're talking about the series here not the movie. And no, no one in Super said Perfect Cell > Tagoma. Implications and opinions are not direct statements, so I won't think otherwise until someone in-universe literally says Tagoma hadn't surpassed Perfect Cell.

6. I don't know if you get the message behind what I meant about Roshi and Namek Frieza. I'm saying, Roshi pushing back someone vastly superior as Frost completely stomps the theory that Gohan and Piccolo were nerfed, since they were held back by the Frieza Force.

7. This whole, "this happened in the past, so it has to be consistent" argument really holds no value. Strength increases haven't really been consistent in the past, because if they were, Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) wouldn't have gone from 18,000 to the low millions in the Frieza saga. So no, being too absurd of a power up alone can't really be a reason why Tagoma didn't reach Buu-tier. This is a series where massive power ups have taken place. Perhaps not to that extent, but until someone in-universe says it's not possible, I really have no reason to doubt.

8. Going Ultimate Gohan is more of a multiplier that brings out his best without stamina-draining effects of SSJ / SSJ2. It's likely training has to be maintained in order to sustain the ability to use said multiplier. And even as a transformation, it could just mean that it's a far more efficient way of harnessing his power that he has to train to maintain.

9. I'm not going to repeat myself. And in fact, I'm getting really tired of this debate. Clearly we're not agreeing with one another, so why not just agree to disagree? I don't care if I can or can't convince one user to see it one way or another, and quite frankly, I know I'll never agree with your viewpoints. Really no point in continuing this debate.

10. Bad writing or not, a huge power up took place. We should be grateful this series even exists, rather than nitpicking and trying to cram everyone into some made up power scale, very few even seem to care about. About Piccolo, Trunks was impressed when Piccolo had powered up out of the RoSaT, and when Goku said Piccolo would lose, Trunks was surprised. So... why would Trunks have that reaction towards a semi-perfect Cell-tier fighter?

11. No Piccolo just implies that SSJ2 isn't Gohan's best, and that by going Ultimate he could get even stronger, and literally be at his best.

12. Let Buu handle it doesn't mean they were going to dump all of it on Buu necessarily. Plus, Buu has regeneration and stamina that far exceeds Gohan's.

Again, like I said, I don't think we can agree with one another, so let's stop this debate here. There's no way I'm going to adhere to any of your points, and it seems mutual.

This isn't directed at you, but no matter how many instances, statements, and feats one brings up it seems nothing will convince some people to just accept the way things are written rather than nitpicking every aspect of something. Constantly fussing over these minute details and arguing with one another only demoralizes the fanbase.

[HeroR]

Can't believe I forgot to point out that we have definite proof that the base Saiyans' power has been retconned. Base Vegeta and base Cabba were even back in the universe 6 tournament. This Vegeta was stronger than the F arc Vegeta who was even with base Goku who, in turn, was even with final form Freeza. Logic would dictate that base Cabba and Freeza are equals yet Freeza tanked all his hits like absolutely nothing.

Freeza couldn't have gotten stronger physically either, all he did was master his golden form and unlock its maximum potential.

Freeza did get physically stronger, it was stated in 95. True Golden Freeza isn’t just Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza without stamina issues, the mental training he did in hell made him stronger overall.

So TOP Freeza > Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza.

No retcon happened.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Freeza did get stronger, it was stated in 95. True Golden Freeza isn’t just Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza without stamina issues, the training he did in hell made him stronger overall.

So TOP Freeza > Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza.

No retcon happened. Unless you thing Goku only just now caught up to the power of Resurrection ‘F’ Golden Freeza.

Not to mention that Goku reassured Vegeta that either one of them would take care of Freeza if he got any funny ideas, which as before Goku went to Baba's place and learned that Freeza had gotten stronger, which could imply that both of them in SSB could at the very least handle if not triumph over the original Golden Freeza.

[supercat]

Freeza did get stronger, it was stated in 95. True Golden Freeza isn’t just Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza without stamina issues, the training he did in hell made him stronger overall.

So TOP Freeza > Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza.

No retcon happened. Unless you thing Goku only just now caught up to the power of Resurrection ‘F’ Golden Freeza.

Exactly. Coupled with Cabba's fatigue, there's really no reason to believe there's been a retcon that had never even once been said or mentioned.

Goku and Vegeta had also gotten much stronger since RoF, so it's quite likely they far surpassed RoF Golden Frieza. Also, if Golden Frieza gets stronger, why wouldn't the other forms?

[Doctor.]

Piccolo also easily blocked Frost's hits with one hand despite clearly being weaker than him. Again, blocking hits reduces damage. Only the monstrously more powerful Jiren could do significant damage to Hit even when he was solidly blocking. As well, Freeza was constantly backing up as he was blocking Cabba's hits, a noted martial arts technique for reducing the impact of blows, something even Piccolo did against Frost. Thus, I don't factor in that bout of blocking, much like you don't factor in Golden Freeza tanking SS2 Cabba's blast.

Frost was very tired and Piccolo never landed a clean blow on him the same way Freeza did with Cabba. Freeza threw him against a wall and held up his face; Cabba could only break free by transforming.

Nice you mention Piccolo, by the way, considering he was portrayed as above base Goku and base Vegeta in the U6 arc since Vegeta decided to go SS to take care of Frost.

As well, we have past precedence regarding the "stronger as a whole VS. in a form". What was noted about Goku and Gohan after they came out of the Room of Spirit & Time was that they didn't have the intensity of Super Saiyan going on despite clearly being in the form. However, it's relatively clear that, even after merely removing the drain of SS and not explicitly powering up the form itself, Goku and Gohan were the strongest Z-Warriors around. Although people still argue to this day that FPSS has a different multiplier, there's plenty of evidence that goes against this notion. I think it applies pretty well here, because Freeza didn't display his true power until he unveiled his True Golden Evolution, much like how we didn't realize just how strong FPSS Goku was until he fought Perfect Cell.

I don't know what you're talking about. The Cell Games clearly imply that it was the Super Saiyan form/multiplier itself that was improved. The base form doesn't factor into the equation at all.

We have ample proof of multipliers getting bigger/being different in the same form. Look at the manga with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Look at the anime with Rosé Black, who was at the very least at SS2 Goku's level in base form, and yet he still ended up in the same ballpark as SSB Goku/Vegeta in the 'same' form. Look at SS Vegeta tanking SS Cabba's blow when he confirmed that they were even in base form.

Freeza did get stronger, it was stated in 95. True Golden Freeza isn’t just Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza without stamina issues, the training he did in hell made him stronger overall.

So TOP Freeza > Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza.

No retcon happened. Unless you thing Goku only just now caught up to the power of Resurrection ‘F’ Golden Freeza.

Golden Freeza =/= Final Form Freeza. Improving Golden Freeza and its power doesn't mean the effects have to necessarily reflect on his true form.