"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Here's the thing, I don't want Universe 6 to go so soon. They've been losing people left right and centre, and many are speculating that Kafla will be the last stand. But Universe 6 going should be a huge deal, and having them drop third would be a waste of an emotional climax. We've already lost Gowasu and the semi-sympathetic Universe 9, if 6 goes there's nobody left to care about outside 7. 3 are bland, 4 are the "heels", at this point the fanbase would reject any effort to make 2's demise tragic, and 11 are the final bosses.

So I'm actually hoping Kafla goes the distance, if only to give enough time to get rid of some "scrub" universes, so her defeat and the subsequent loss of U6 gets the time it deserves.

Thanks for speaking for the entire fanbase. I'm sure you spoke to everyone.

Oh, don't feign offense. You know there's going to be nasty comments when Ribrianne finally goes, and it's not gonna be just on Youtube.

We can say the same thing about any universe. There are fans who wants to see U6 get erased because they don't like them outside of a few characters.

[Noah]

Those other entities [TOEI, Bandai, etc] are not the authority. They only have the right to be based off the authority. The main authority, Toriyama himself.
Only Toriyama has the power to say what is official canon Dragonball. Which he already has stated that Super is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu arc that ended years ago.

Yes they are as much as Toriyama, either you like it or not, he's the author but has no full control of the franchise, let alone Super. He's not the one who directs the anime, he provide outlines to the staff that could be interpreted in any way, the same with Toyotaro (manga). And both have free will to add stuff as they like (Kaioken in the anime/SSJ God in the manga). You can repeat yourself as much as you want, but his statement had nothing to do with canon, but yes to promote a new animated series. I dare to say Toei has more power in that matter, even though fans acknowledge GT, Super, movies are not present in the original work, Toei would not make a statement about the official continuity of the series that could have some impact in their merchandising.

[Kaiosama]

Noah is right... Super is not canon. There's too many inexplicable sins committed by animators and writers for this to be canon. Spirit Sword SSB Ikari Rage Trunks makes Dragon Ball AF look canon.

[dragon boss z]

Those other entities [TOEI, Bandai, etc] are not the authority. They only have the right to be based off the authority. The main authority, Toriyama himself.
Only Toriyama has the power to say what is official canon Dragonball. Which he already has stated that Super is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu arc that ended years ago.

Yes they are as much as Toriyama, either you like it or not, he's the author but has no full control of the franchise, let alone Super. He's not the one who directs the anime, he provide outlines to the staff that could be interpreted in any way, the same with Toyotaro (manga). And both have free will to add stuff as they like (Kaioken in the anime/SSJ God in the manga). You can repeat yourself as much as you want, but his statement had nothing to do with canon, but yes to promote a new animated series. I dare to say Toei has more power in that matter, even though fans acknowledge GT, Super, movies are not present in the original work, they would not make a statement about the official continuity of the series that could have some impact in their merchandising.

[Kaiosama]

Vegeta and Goku are stupid... seriously after this tourney Beerus should hakai them.

It’s not even funny anymore.

Hope as soon as the fusion is over Freeza will eliminate the chicks...

Butt stupid Goku may train Cicada next

Hakai Vegeta. Goku just needs to do 100 years of penance on a raddish farm with rationed food lol

[MaskedRider]

Toriyama commented back in the RoF movie, which is just as a Super narrative as a Z one, that he wrote it as if he was continuing his manga while it was in serialization like the previous movie. Though to be fair this is speaking about the movie but to me this speaks to me as, the story that is Battle of Gods and Resurrection F are the definitive events after Majin Buu whether it be movie, manga or anime.

"[As with the last movie], I thought up the new story for the next Dragon Ball theatrical film as though it were a continuation of the manga when it was in serialization."

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... a-comment/

"“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe."

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dr ... ries-plot/

And that is mostly the anime, in the manga we all know Toriyama helps and provides for Toyotaro while commercials such as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDc3FZZxY6w) promote Super as being a proper continuation. From what I understand, Toriyama cares a lot about Super, despite being underwhelmed by the quality. If he didn't care at all there would be no reason for him having to continue with it as he does now or oversee Toyotaro.

So basically I want to know what my taxes help pay for and why my face is my face.

[Kataphrut]

Thanks for speaking for the entire fanbase. I'm sure you spoke to everyone.

Oh, don't feign offense. You know there's going to be nasty comments when Ribrianne finally goes, and it's not gonna be just on Youtube.

We can say the same thing about any universe. There are fans who wants to see U6 get erased because they don't like them outside of a few characters.

Yeah, but that's only because the focus right now is on Kale and Caulifla, who are polarising characters. As a whole, Universe 6 has the most emotional investment outside of the home team. A lot of the characters from it like Champa, Vados and especially Hit are well loved. Even the divisive ones like Frost, Magetta and the three Saiyans have plenty of fans. A lot of them have connections to the Universe 7 cast: Beerus with his brother, Goku's rivalry with Hit, Vegeta's mentorship with Cabba, etc. When they go, it's going to be a big moment and I was just saying I'd prefer that moment not get wasted. If 6 goes this soon, no other Universe erasure will have the same level of impact.

Imagine what would happen if Universe 3 went out after 6. What's that going to be like? Oh no, Maji Kayo, you...poor petal. The reason I lumped Universe 2 in the same category is we saw what happened last week when they tried to give Ribrianne an emotional moment. Everyone just complained she was getting too much screentime, and asked why Vegeta hadn't eliminated her already. Maybe it's different in the Japanese fandom, but our neck of the woods overwhelmingly does not like her, and will most likely not shed a tear when her Universe gets eliminated.

[Miracles]

There is a simple way to break this down:

Look at Star Wars. The movies are the primary canon, but when Lucus owned the rights, the EU was considered 'canon' until proven otherwise by the movies.

After Disney bought the rights, Disney made it clear that the EU was not canon. It doesn't matter if the fans liked it or still considered the EU 'canon'. Disney, the people who owned the rights, have spoken.

In the case of Dragon Ball, the canon of Dragon Ball as dictated Toriyama is the manga, along with Jaco, and now Super (both manga and anime), all stuff he directly wrote or have major influence in. Also the two movies written by him, but that falls into limbo since Super retold them even if the broad stokes are the same.

Everything else like GT, the original 13 movies, and even the 2008 special are the EU like Star Wars.

Yep. That's good...Thank you.

Those other entities [TOEI, Bandai, etc] are not the authority. They only have the right to be based off the authority. The main authority, Toriyama himself.
Only Toriyama has the power to say what is official canon Dragonball. Which he already has stated that Super is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu arc that ended years ago.

Yes they are as much as Toriyama, either you like it or not, he's the author but has no full control of the franchise, let alone Super. He's not the one who directs the anime, he provide outlines to the staff that could be interpreted in any way, the same with Toyotaro (manga). And both have free will to add stuff as they like (Kaioken in the anime/SSJ God in the manga). You can repeat yourself as much as you want, but his statement had nothing to do with canon, but yes to promote a new animated series. I dare to say Toei has more power in that matter, even though fans acknowledge GT, Super, movies are not present in the original work, they would not make a statement about the official continuity of the series that could have some impact in their merchandising.

Toriyama oversees TOEI and Toyotaro who are writing based on HIS written plot. He checks both the anime scripts and the manga storyboard. These are both also based off the canon movies [BOG/RoF] Which Toriyama wrote himself and has confirmed that these are continuations of Dragonball manga, Majin Buu tale. You can deny it all you want but you aren't telling the truth. The truth is, only what Toriyama says matters. What you want to be, what the fandom's opinions is, does not matter. Toriyama himself has directly stated Super is continuing, from his original story. You have to bring proof from him that it does not instead of your own denial of it.

[HeroR]

Yeah, but that's only because the focus right now is on Kale and Caulifla, who are polarising characters. As a whole, Universe 6 has the most emotional investment outside of the home team. A lot of the characters from it like Champa, Vados and especially Hit are well loved. Even the divisive ones like Frost, Magetta and the three Saiyans have plenty of fans. A lot of them have connections to the Universe 7 cast: Beerus with his brother, Goku's rivalry with Hit, Vegeta's mentorship with Cabba, etc. When they go, it's going to be a big moment and I was just saying I'd prefer that moment not get wasted. If 6 goes this soon, no other Universe erasure will have the same level of impact.

Imagine what would happen if Universe 3 went out after 6. What's that going to be like? Oh no, Maji Kayo, you...poor petal. The reason I lumped Universe 2 in the same category is we saw what happened last week when they tried to give Ribrianne an emotional moment. Everyone just complained she was getting too much screentime, and asked why Vegeta hadn't eliminated her already. Maybe it's different in the Japanese fandom, but our neck of the woods overwhelmingly does not like her, and will most likely not shed a tear when her Universe gets eliminated.

Cali and Kale got the most heat, but they're people who hate U6 outside of Hit, Champa, and Vados.

U3 would be like U9 and U10, sucks but we're moved on. U10 is only talked about because of Gowasu and that one fighter Gohan fought. Also Ribrianne's emotional moment was played for laughs and a joke if you know anything about the magical girl genre. It wasn't meant to be serious.

[Michsi]

Those other entities [TOEI, Bandai, etc] are not the authority. They only have the right to be based off the authority. The main authority, Toriyama himself.
Only Toriyama has the power to say what is official canon Dragonball. Which he already has stated that Super is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu arc that ended years ago.

Yes they are as much as Toriyama, either you like it or not, he's the author but has no full control of the franchise, let alone Super. He's not the one who directs the anime, he provide outlines to the staff that could be interpreted in any way, the same with Toyotaro (manga). And both have free will to add stuff as they like (Kaioken in the anime/SSJ God in the manga). You can repeat yourself as much as you want, but his statement had nothing to do with canon, but yes to promote a new animated series. I dare to say Toei has more power in that matter, even though fans acknowledge GT, Super, movies are not present in the original work, they would not make a statement about the official continuity of the series that could have some impact in their merchandising.

I always felt like it's Toei that is the primary driving force of Super and that Toriyama was brought in mainly to put his distinctive spin on their ideas to help sell this revival. For example: he might be the one that created Beerus the character, but the idea of a God of Destruction wasn't his and look how important these new gods are to the series. I think that Toei comes up with a concept they think will make a good story, Toriyama then creates the basic outline of the plot or just makes the necessary adjustments and changes where necessary, and then the studio fills in blank spaces with the insignificant aspects and details like all these smaller skirmishes we see in the TOP.

Many say that the DBS manga is a by-product of the anime, even if it sometimes handles the story a bit better than the series.

[Kataphrut]

Yeah, but that's only because the focus right now is on Kale and Caulifla, who are polarising characters. As a whole, Universe 6 has the most emotional investment outside of the home team. A lot of the characters from it like Champa, Vados and especially Hit are well loved. Even the divisive ones like Frost, Magetta and the three Saiyans have plenty of fans. A lot of them have connections to the Universe 7 cast: Beerus with his brother, Goku's rivalry with Hit, Vegeta's mentorship with Cabba, etc. When they go, it's going to be a big moment and I was just saying I'd prefer that moment not get wasted. If 6 goes this soon, no other Universe erasure will have the same level of impact.

Imagine what would happen if Universe 3 went out after 6. What's that going to be like? Oh no, Maji Kayo, you...poor petal. The reason I lumped Universe 2 in the same category is we saw what happened last week when they tried to give Ribrianne an emotional moment. Everyone just complained she was getting too much screentime, and asked why Vegeta hadn't eliminated her already. Maybe it's different in the Japanese fandom, but our neck of the woods overwhelmingly does not like her, and will most likely not shed a tear when her Universe gets eliminated.

Cali and Kale got the most heat, but they're people who hate U6 outside of Hit, Champa, and Vados.

U3 would be like U9 and U10, sucks but we're moved on. U10 is only talked about because of Gowasu and that one fighter Gohan fought. Also Ribrianne's emotional moment was played for laughs and a joke if you know anything about the magical girl genre. It wasn't meant to be serious.

I don't fully agree. 9 had the shock value of happening first, plus there was a scrappy underdog thing going on that made them sympathetic. As for 10, having Gowasu is actually a pretty big deal, it's the only one aside from 6 that had a character we knew and were invested in prior to the beginning of the arc. Obuni was just a bonus; frankly, they should've had him on 3 since they really need the leg-up for their loss to be anything more than a "sucks to be you".

Maybe this is subjective. I felt bad for Ribrianne in that moment, even if it was very tropey, but that's because I want more characters to acknowledge the stakes of the tournament in general. Maybe that's why the loss of 9 resonated with me; Bergamo was so furious at Goku and so determined to survive, to have him and his crew go out in such a pathetic way was tragic. I felt bad for Toppo as well before I realised he was riding on the back of a giant.

[Noah]

Toriyama oversees TOEI and Toyotaro who are writing based on HIS written plot. He checks both the anime scripts and the manga storyboard. These are both also based off the canon movies [BOG/RoF] Which Toriyama wrote himself and has confirmed that these are continuations of Dragonball manga, Majin Buu tale. You can deny it all you want but you aren't telling the truth. The truth is, only what Toriyama says matters. What you want to be, what the fandom's opinions is, does not matter. Toriyama himself has directly stated Super is continuing, from his original story. You have to bring proof from him that it does not instead of your own denial of it.

This is debatable since the both anime and manga has divergences. If Toriyama has great influence and constantly checks both products as you claim, there would be no differences. He provides outlines that are barebones and that's it. You're the one in denial here, these are animated medias, Dragon Ball GT was also said to be the continuation of the final chapter of the manga, not from Toriyama, but from Toei who has greater authority than Toriyama. His statements about movies and Super were mostly to explain the audience the time where the story sets and to promote these products, still nothing related with canon. He may say these stories had happened, but also don't change the fact they are absent in the original work. How about you prove to me where is Beerus, SSJ God, Blue and etc. in the manga? I'm searching in all the 42 volumes and I can't find it.

[Miracles]

Toriyama oversees TOEI and Toyotaro who are writing based on HIS written plot. He checks both the anime scripts and the manga storyboard. These are both also based off the canon movies [BOG/RoF] Which Toriyama wrote himself and has confirmed that these are continuations of Dragonball manga, Majin Buu tale. You can deny it all you want but you aren't telling the truth. The truth is, only what Toriyama says matters. What you want to be, what the fandom's opinions is, does not matter. Toriyama himself has directly stated Super is continuing, from his original story. You have to bring proof from him that it does not instead of your own denial of it.

This is debatable since the both anime and manga has divergences. If Toriyama has great influence and constantly checks both products as you claim, there would be no differences. He provides outlines that are barebones and that's it. You're the one in denial here, these are animated medias, Dragon Ball GT was also said to be the continuation of the final chapter of the manga, not from Toriyama, but from Toei who has greater authority than Toriyama. His statements about movies and Super were mostly to explain the audience the time where the story sets and to promote these products, still nothing related with canon. He may say these stories had happened, but also don't change the fact they are absent in the original work. How about you prove to me where is Beerus, SSJ God, Blue and etc. in the manga? I'm searching in all the 42 volumes and I can't find it.

That's cause Toriyama introduced the story of Beerus after the Buu arc. The fact that he said this Beerus story continues his original Dragonball story makes it canon alone cause he wrote it.
This isn't debatable. Only the authority which is Toriyama can say what is what. You need to prove your assertions from the authority stating that none of it is "canon." Otherwise you are just throwing air.

[HeroR]

I don't fully agree. 9 had the shock value of happening first, plus there was a scrappy underdog thing going on that made them sympathetic. As for 10, having Gowasu is actually a pretty big deal, it's the only one aside from 6 that had a character we knew and were invested in prior to the beginning of the arc. Obuni was just a bonus; frankly, they should've had him on 3 since they really need the leg-up for their loss to be anything more than a "sucks to be you".

Maybe this is subjective. I felt bad for Ribrianne in that moment, even if it was very tropey, but that's because I want more characters to acknowledge the stakes of the tournament in general. Maybe that's why the loss of 9 resonated with me; Bergamo was so furious at Goku and so determined to survive, to have him and his crew go out in such a pathetic way was tragic. I felt bad for Toppo as well before I realised he was riding on the back of a giant.

U9 was sympathetic to some, but for the most part the fandom don't missed them outside some cool designs. U10 was the closest the fandom came to feeling any real sympathy for any destroyed universe and it was really Gowasu that did it since he's by far the most developed character of anyone in the other universes outside of Hit since he was a key member of last arc and he has already suffered enough agony to the point of rivaling Future Trunks and Future Mai as the most miserable character in the series. I do agree on Obuni being a bonus, but it was obvious he was there for sympathy points for Gohan.

The magical girl trope I am referencing when Ribrianne showed doubt is the trope, "main character shows doubt, get slaps by teammate, and get a speech to snap them out of it". It was done twice in Sailor Moon in the same story arc, so Ribrianne's scene made me laugh and I'm sure it was on purpose since Toei wrote the Sailor Moon anime.

I always felt like it's Toei that is the primary driving force of Super and that Toriyama was brought in mainly to put his distinctive spin on their ideas to help sell this revival. For example: he might be the one that created Beerus the character, but the idea of a God of Destruction wasn't his and look how important these new gods are to the series. I think that Toei comes up with a concept they think will make a good story, Toriyama then creates the basic outline of the plot or just makes the necessary adjustments and changes where necessary, and then the studio fills in blank spaces with the insignificant aspects and details like all these smaller skirmishes we see in the TOP.

Many say that the DBS manga is a by-product of the anime, even if it sometimes handles the story a bit better than the series.

Except we have Resurrection 'F', which was all written by Toriyama. We also have Jaco and Minus that are also all Toriyama with no involvement with Toei, so I am not sure why fans think Toei grabbed Toriyama but his neck, whisper ideas into his head, and he writes stuff down. The Gods of Destruction may not have been Toriyama's idea, but he rewrote Beerus'' entire character himself, added Whis (the angels), redrew Super Saiyan God, and rewrote the entire plot of the Battle of Gods movie. So other than a couple of ideas, Battle of Gods was mostly Toriyama's movie.

Toriyama also told us how Super is made. He writes an outline, Toei takes it, break them into episodes, makes any changes, Toriyama sees them, and gives his approval. The closest thing we have to "Toei comes up with a concept they think will make a good story", is Toriyama saying that the Future Trunks Saga was created by a suggesting by the editor department. To this day, we have no clue what the suggesting even was, although we might find out in the next V-Jump.

On the bolded, that is a subjective opinion since there are Star Wars fan who will say the Star Wars EU is better than the canon movies. Doesn't really mean anything. Even then, Toriyama oversees the manga too.

[Noah]

I always felt like it's Toei that is the primary driving force of Super and that Toriyama was brought in mainly to put his distinctive spin on their ideas to help sell this revival. For example: he might be the one that created Beerus the character, but the idea of a God of Destruction wasn't his and look how important these new gods are to the series. I think that Toei comes up with a concept they think will make a good story, Toriyama then creates the basic outline of the plot or just makes the necessary adjustments and changes where necessary, and then the studio fills in blank spaces with the insignificant aspects and details like all these smaller skirmishes we see in the TOP.

Many say that the DBS manga is a by-product of the anime, even if it sometimes handles the story a bit better than the series.

Not only Super, but the franchise as a whole. Many thought the reason of GT failure as due Toriyama being not so involved with the series as he is now. Toei bringing him back was a marketing stategy. Even though some ignore that Battle Of Gods (2013) was not his full script and many like it, Ressurection of F (2015) was it but had a lot of criticism from the fans, of course ignoring the fact that the movie had great impact on Toei wanting to do a new anime series after 18 years. And that's as mainly because of Toriyama.

That's cause Toriyama introduced the story of Beerus after the Buu arc. The fact that he said this Beerus story continues his original Dragonball story makes it canon alone cause he wrote it.
This isn't debatable. Only the authority which is Toriyama can say what is what. You need to prove your assertions from the authority stating that none of it is "canon." Otherwise you are just throwing air.

Yes it is and no, it doesn't make it canon. There's no statement of that, no matter how you try to put words in Toriyama mouth. He's not the only entity that owns Dragon Ball and not fully in charge of the franchise. It has to come not only from him, but from Toei too. There's no assertions to make as there's no DB Vol. 43, the original work remains untouchable.

[MaskedRider]

How about you prove to me where is Beerus, SSJ God, Blue and etc. in the manga? I'm searching in all the 42 volumes and I can't find it.

I wouldn't think like this. Take Final Fantasy VII for example, just because we see events take place that did not appear in the original Platstation 1 product does not make Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus non-canon to seven's continuity. Or Kingdom Hearts with its sequels having events that are not in or mentioned in the original Playstation 2 product.

[HeroR]

How about you prove to me where is Beerus, SSJ God, Blue and etc. in the manga? I'm searching in all the 42 volumes and I can't find it.

I wouldn't think like this. Take Final Fantasy VII for example, just because we see events take place that did not appear in the original Platstation 1 product does not make Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus non-canon to seven's continuity.

The same holds true for any medium. The reason why Super isn't a manga continuation penned by Toiryama is because he doesn't want to draw manga anymore (and he's self-proclaimed lazy). So, he has Toei and Toyo do all the hard work for him while he sits back and writes an outline.

No one claims that Baruto isn't canon to Naruto despite the events of the anime never happening in the manga. Heck, The Last was created to officially fill in the gap between the end of the last war and the epilogue of the manga, and almost no Naruto fan claimed it isn't canon because it isn't in the manga.

To be blunt, I don't understand why Dragon Ball fans have such a hard time understanding this since no other fanbase seem to have this issue.

[Miracles]

Yes it is and no, it doesn't make it canon. There's no statement of that, no matter how you try to put words in Toriyama mouth. He's not the only entity that owns Dragon Ball and not fully in charge of the franchise. It has to come not only from him, but from Toei too. There's no assertions to make as there's no DB Vol. 43, the original work remains untouchable.

Akira Toriyama: “Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe."

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dr ... ries-plot/

Unlike Dragon Ball GT however, Fuji TV producer Osamu Nozaki tells us that Dragon Ball Super is being written by creator Akira Toriyama himself:

"As I read the plot [of the series] I’ve already received from Akira Toriyama my dreams for this begin to expand. An enemy even stronger than Buu or Freeza may appear…”
“Having loved Dragon Ball since childhood, it is very exciting to be a part of this project,” said Osamu Nozaki, producer for Fuji Television. “Mr. Toriyama has developed a plot that’s not only a dream come true for Dragon Ball’s millions of fans, but one that will foster in a new generation of viewers.”

http://moderndistraction.com/new-dragon ... all-super/

Even tho what you stated isn't true about TOEI having to state what the supreme authority Toriyama said; I provided TOEI stating Super is Toriyama's written story too. Toriyama says it continues HIS original Dragonball manga story. Now prove to me Toriyama himself, TOEI or Toyotaro has contradicted Toriyama, the ultimate authority's statement about his own work?

[Michsi]

Except we have Resurrection 'F', which was all written by Toriyama. We also have Jaco and Minus that are also all Toriyama with no involvement with Toei, so I am not sure why fans think Toei grabbed Toriyama but his neck, whisper ideas into his head, and he writes stuff down. The Gods of Destruction may not have been Toriyama's idea, but he rewrote Beerus'' entire character himself, added Whis (the angels), redrew Super Saiyan God, and rewrote the entire plot of the Battle of Gods movie. So other than a couple of ideas, Battle of Gods was mostly Toriyama's movie.

Toriyama also told us how Super is made. He writes an outline, Toei takes it, break them into episodes, makes any changes, Toriyama sees them, and gives his approval. The closest thing we have to "Toei comes up with a concept they think will make a good story", is Toriyama saying that the Future Trunks Saga was created by a suggesting by the editor department. To this day, we have no clue what the suggesting even was, although we might find out in the next V-Jump.

On the bolded, that is a subjective opinion since there are Star Wars fan who will say the Star Wars EU is better than the canon movies. Doesn't really mean anything. Even then, Toriyama oversees the manga too.

First, I feel I should've clarified that I don't follow the manga - the comment I made in regards to it was more my personal observation of how the fandom reacts to it.

As far as Toriyama's level of involvement is concerned, I honestly don't think things are as clear-cut as some would like to think it is. The writing process is a complex, messy thing, especially when it involves so many people and it's fairly rare that the "final product" could be attributed to one artist alone even if their name appears under the title.

I was merely saying that people shouldn't be so concerned with what did and did not come from Toriyama himself, or what was added without his expressed seal of approval to determine what is "canon".

It's been mentioned several timea, even here, that Japanese fans barely ever concern themselves with "canon". They might be aware of it to some degree, like how Dragon Ball GT wasn't written by the original author, or that some things are in the anime and not in the manga, but on average they don't care or discuss it nearly as much as we do. To both the fans and the writers it's all just a big franchise, and while the Toriyama's manga is at the center of it all, everything is seen as "Dragon Ball", Broly and General Rilldo included.

[HeroR]

First, I feel I should've clarified that I don't follow the manga - the comment I made in regards to it was more my personal observation of how the fandom reacts to it.

As far as Toriyama's level of involvement is concerned, I honestly don't think things are as clear-cut as some would like to think it is. The writing process is a complex, messy thing, especially when it involves so many people and it's fairly rare that the "final product" could be attributed to one artist alone even if their name appears under the title.

I was merely saying that people shouldn't be so concerned with what did and did not come from Toriyama himself, or what was added without his expressed seal of approval to determine what is "canon".

It's been mentioned several timea, even here, that Japanese fans barely ever concern themselves with "canon". They might be aware of it to some degree, like how Dragon Ball GT wasn't written by the original author, or that some things are in the anime and not in the manga, but on average they don't care or discuss it nearly as much as we do. To both the fans and the writers it's all just a big franchise, and while the Toriyama's manga is at the center of it all, everything is seen as "Dragon Ball", Broly and General Rilldo included.

The writing process isn't that messy even with Super's production despite fan theories that none of the writers talk to each other. Toriyama writes the outline, the director makes the script, the writers make the events of the script happened. In all those, Toriyama gives his approval as Toyo said in an interview, Toriyama oversees everything Dragon Ball related. It isn't one person, but most things in media isn't just one person. Even the original Dragon Ball wasn't just Toriyama since he had editors, two that heavily influence the Androids/Cell Saga.

In short, if Toriyama doesn't want something, it isn't going to be in Super, manga or anime. At the same time, he's more than happy to let Toei and Toyo put their own spin on the story.

True, the Japanese fans are not as hung up on 'canon' as western fans, which is why stuff like Heroes is popular, and 'canon' has been used as short term for 'stuff I don't like', but even they know what connects to the main story and what stuff is there for fun or a What If. Like almost no Japanese fan is going to say Broly exists in the main story of Dragon Ball or GT and Super connects.