Dragonball2018.com is registered.

[ABED]

It wasn't about his character.

But they do matter. What matters to those characters usually matters to the audience. If victory is important to them, it's important to us.

You couldn't have a movie where it revolves around a Tournament that doesn't matter.

Matter to WHOM? And why can't a movie sustain it but an entire TV or manga arc can?

You don't get a Marvel movie where there are no stakes or consequences to what's going on or a movie where what is happening just doesn't matter.

This isn't a superhero story. Marvel and DC stories are about superheroes. They are out to save the day. Goku and his friends aren't. This isn't an apt comparison. Making this comparison makes me think you don't understand the core of DB.

Goku may not be out to save the world but it is what he actually does.

He also puts it in jeopardy. Case in point, letting the cyborgs be created even though he has ample warning. DB was a success during the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai where he wasn't saving anyone, he was just competing.

Well that is structure.

That isn't structure. Structure is how a story is told.

[Bullza]

But they do matter. What matters to those characters usually matters to the audience. If victory is important to them, it's important to us.

But victory wasn't important for them as Goku said. So it's not important to us either. Their victory or loss changes next to nothing at all.

Matter to WHOM? And why can't a movie sustain it but an entire TV or manga arc can?

A movie is actively trying to get you out of the house, to a theatre and then to part with your money to see what happens on opening weekend. That is very different from just watching a 20 minute episode on TV. It needs a much more significant hook than what you get normally.

Dragon Ball Super has episodes involving them playing Baseball and Gohan making a Great Saiyaman movie. That can work as part of a series but not a movie for the same reason.

And like I said it worked better for the series because it was a change of pace following directly from two more serious sagas. That's not a movie problem when they are released years apart.

This isn't a superhero story. Marvel and DC stories are about superheroes. They are out to save the day. Goku and his friends aren't. This isn't an apt comparison. Making this comparison makes me think you don't understand the core of DB.

That's besides the point because that's what they constantly do anyway. They were out to save the day when it came to Cell and his threat to destroy Earth, when it came to Buu and him wiping out humanity, with Beerus and him threatening to destroy Earth, with Frieza and him bringing an army with him to cause mayhem, with Black and him wiping out humanity in Trunks' timeline, with this current Tournament where there universe is in danger.

They are always saving the day from evil beings just the same as in superhero movies and superhero movies don't have plots where what happens is inconsequential.

That isn't structure. Structure is how a story is told.

Yeah and it wouldn't have what it takes to be told well when it has a weak beginning and no resolute ending and where the middle would be mostly just action. There's not much in the way of story to even tell.

[ABED]

A movie is actively trying to get you out of the house, to a theatre and then to part with your money to see what happens on opening weekend. That is very different from just watching a 20 minute episode on TV. It needs a much more significant hook than what you get normally.

These days, that's a moot point as the film lives on beyond a theatrical run. Also, years ago, people had to also pick up comics at a store, so I don't see how the emotional investment is any less. Besides, it's 1 movie vs. a long running show. Time is a bigger commitment than money.

That's besides the point because that's what they constantly do anyway. They were out to save the day when it came to Cell and his threat to destroy Earth, when it came to Buu and him wiping out humanity, with Beerus and him threatening to destroy Earth, with Frieza and him bringing an army with him to cause mayhem, with Black and him wiping out humanity in Trunks' timeline, with this current Tournament where there universe is in danger.

They are always saving the day from evil beings just the same as in superhero movies and superhero movies don't have plots where what happens is inconsequential.

Not beside the point at all. They save the day as a consequence, not as their primary goal. Cell is a threat BECAUSE of them. Trunks is the closest thing to a superhero on the show, but it's still not a show about people out to save the world. Goku lets Piccolo and Vegeta live because he wants a better fight. He tries to let Freeza live because he's bored. The difference is in superheroes, they are actively looking to stop threats. Goku is just trying to be the best warrior he can be.

would be mostly just action. There's not much in the way of story to even tell.

Action IS a story.

[MR.Mark]

Still taking the "not heros" sentiment in the other extreme. At the end of the Buu arc Goku and Vegeta were very much fighting to save everyone.

As for a future Movie, It would be the first under the Super brand, so I would hope it's not another retelling.

[ABED]

Still taking the "not heros" sentiment in the other extreme. At the end of the Buu arc Goku and Vegeta were very much fighting to save everyone.

And you still refuse to understand what the story is about. It was only when the existence of EVERYTHING was on the line that they were fighting to save everyone and even then they still refused to do things like fuse because they wanted to fight on their terms. I'm sure you can find a post by Kunzait that can explain this way better than I can.

[MR.Mark]

Why did Vegeta agree to become Vegitto with Goku to begin with? Oh that's right Buu adsorbed there family and friends witch they had to SAVE.

[ABED]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=39938&p=1389538&hil ... s#p1389538
Here it is. Read Kunzait's post.

[MR.Mark]

Yes, there pride overrides some decisions at times. However when logic smacks sense into them, they will do what is necessary to save family and even the world.

Goku was not so dumb to want to fight super buu for the "sake of a good fight" It was only after becoming kid buu did the pair think they could take him without fusion. When that failed, it was back to saving the world again. Only without the obvious choice of Gohan for power, Toriyama opted for Genkidama so Goku could get a cool victory, simple as that.

I mean I GET IT, they're not TYPICAL heros, and not super heros obviously. Unlikely heros are still heros, and the cast of DB fit that bill.

[Forte224]

Yes, there pride overrides some decisions at times. However when logic smacks sense into them, they will do what is necessary to save family and even the world.

Goku was not so dumb to want to fight super buu for the "sake of a good fight" It was only after becoming kid buu did the pair think they could take him without fusion. When that failed, it was back to saving the world again. Only without the obvious choice of Gohan for power, Toriyama opted for Genkidama so Goku could get a cool victory, simple as that.

I mean I GET IT, they're not TYPICAL heros, and not super heros obviously. Unlikely heros are still heros, and the cast of DB fit that bill.

I haven't followed this whole conversation but yeah I agree. The out of character heroic Goku dub moments, while really dumb, have made people over compensate for how unheroic the cast is. Goku says heroic things in the original script at times, it's just not his main focus, or else he'd be out fighting crime

[ABED]

Have either of you read Kunzait's post? He and I have both brought up these points and answered them. I can't put it any better way, so please read his post because this has gotten very off topic.

[MR.Mark]

Exactly Forte224, I mean, look at the whole end of the Cell arc and the story of the Buu arc before Toriyama reconned for Goku to come back as the lead. Goku chose to stay dead because he acknowledged his selfish behavior was leading earth to be targeted by more and more strong enemys. If all he truly cared about was 100% "a good fight" he'd be all "fuck my loved ones and the earth, wish me back so I can keep fighting strong guys". Goku once again made a sacrifice, he aint the the total dick fans make him out to be, he's an unlikely hero.

Back on topic, I'd still like a movie that would end the Super series with a lead up to meeting Uub, then branching into a new adventure beyond EOZ

[Bullza]

These days, that's a moot point as the film lives on beyond a theatrical run.

But they're not in it for the afterwards. They'd be making the movie with the intention of it making money in theatres. They need to offer something significant enough for people to go and pay to see it.

Not beside the point at all. They save the day as a consequence, not as their primary goal. Cell is a threat BECAUSE of them. Trunks is the closest thing to a superhero on the show, but it's still not a show about people out to save the world. Goku lets Piccolo and Vegeta live because he wants a better fight. He tries to let Freeza live because he's bored. The difference is in superheroes, they are actively looking to stop threats. Goku is just trying to be the best warrior he can be.

It is besides the point because whether it's by consequence or not it's still something that happens. These fights are still about saving the world and humanity and that's why people watch them and find them interesting and exciting.

The show isn't about them fighting just for the sake of it to pass the time. You have a villain who is out to do bad things and the good guys, Goku or Gohan try to overcome them and stop them which in turns benefits others.

Like every superhero movie. Also Avengers had Ultron who was a threat because of Iron Man.

Action IS a story.

Action is something that happens because of what is built up in the story. You always need a set up and stakes so the action has a point and then leads to something that matters at the end of it.

A movie where Cup Noodles leads to a Fighting Tournament where it's outcome doesn't matter to any of the characters before ending with a wish that doesn't affect absolutely anything would make for a pitiful story.

[ABED]

But they're not in it for the afterwards.

And you know this, how?

Like every superhero movie. Also Avengers had Ultron who was a threat because of Iron Man.

Tony was trying to save the world when he created Ultron. He was trying to stop threats before they start. Goku and company let the threats go because they want a fight. They let powerful enemies go so they can fight them later. That is a huge fundamental difference. Read Kunzait's post, please.

Action is something that happens because of what is built up in the story.

Action is part of the story. It's not separate. Stories are just what people do and say.

[MR.Mark]

These days, that's a moot point as the film lives on beyond a theatrical run.

But they're not in it for the afterwards. They'd be making the movie with the intention of it making money in theatres. They need to offer something significant enough for people to go and pay to see it.

Not beside the point at all. They save the day as a consequence, not as their primary goal. Cell is a threat BECAUSE of them. Trunks is the closest thing to a superhero on the show, but it's still not a show about people out to save the world. Goku lets Piccolo and Vegeta live because he wants a better fight. He tries to let Freeza live because he's bored. The difference is in superheroes, they are actively looking to stop threats. Goku is just trying to be the best warrior he can be.

It is besides the point because whether it's by consequence or not it's still something that happens. These fights are still about saving the world and humanity and that's why people watch them and find them interesting and exciting.

The show isn't about them fighting just for the sake of it to pass the time. You have a villain who is out to do bad things and the good guys, Goku or Gohan try to overcome them and stop them which in turns benefits others.

Like every superhero movie. Also Avengers had Ultron who was a threat because of Iron Man.

Action IS a story.

Action is something that happens because of what is built up in the story. You always need a set up and stakes so the action has a point and then leads to something that matters at the end of it.

A movie where Cup Noodles leads to a Fighting Tournament where it's outcome doesn't matter to any of the characters before ending with a wish that doesn't affect absolutely anything would make for a pitiful story.

Bullzilla,I still wouldn't go as far as call them super heros but yeah, Goku and the others do heroic deeds all the time. Every time Goku has died has been for the sake of people he cared about for instance. Vegeta did the same against Buu, and was willing to be erased from existence to help Goku get the energy he needed to beat Buu, the list goes on. Goku was training Goten and Trunks to protect the earth when he was gone for christ sake.

[ABED]

I know they do heroic deeds. No one has claimed otherwise, but it's not USUALLY their goal, it's often as a consequence, and they will let the bad guy go for less than heroic reasons. Can we please stop with the strawman arguments?

I'd like Bulma to play an active part of the next movie in some way. Her and Goku's friendship is a highlight of the story and it's been put on the backburner for years, and it's a shame.

[MR.Mark]

They fall under unlikely heros, I can certainly agree with that. Maybe if you tell me one more time to read another fans opinion that matches your own I'll be swayed. Not likely with the contradictory evidence against said opinions though.

I myself would love to finally see Vegeta defeat a big bad, maybe in a future film?

[ABED]

They fall under unlikely heros, I can certainly agree with that. Maybe if you tell me one more time to read another fans opinion that matches your own I'll be swayed. Not likely with the contradictory evidence against said opinions though.

I myself would love to finally see Vegeta defeat a big bad, maybe in a future film?

There is no contradiction and you'd know that if you would read his opinion. You keep creating strawman arguments and disregarding statements where we do acknowledge your points and then claim we haven't. We know that in the Buu arc which you harp on as your only shred of evidence for your point, that they are out to save the world. We say that over and over again, but it's really the only time they are out to save the world. The bulk of the time, they aren't. They actively put it in danger for the sake of a fight. The Buu arc is the exception to the rule and that's no surprise given the scale of the threat - all existence is at stake. It's so ironic that you use the phrase contradictory evidence.

Now I'm thinking I would like the next movie for the protagonists to once again be responsible for the threat just to spite you guys and show yet again that they aren't superheroes.

[MR.Mark]

When Raditz showed up and took Gohan, Goku had no interest in a good fight, he was willing to team up with Piccolo to save his son. There was nothing on Goku's mind but saving his son, heroic actions.

Goku told Freeza he would defeat him for the sake of the Nameks that were killed aswell as the Saiyans, pride mixed with heroic justice.

Goku told Gohan to tell Chi Chi he was sorry for being selfish, before sacrificing himself (again), both admitting his flaws and saving the world.

All examples before the Buu arc, no straw man here.

I don't think you watch Super, but there's examples there too, and i'm sure there will be in the next movie.

[ABED]

Let's take it to the appropriate thread.

[Bullza]

And you know this, how?

Because that's how the business works. Making money comes before anything else.

That is a huge fundamental difference. Read Kunzait's post, please.

But it's still besides the point anyway. Regardless of how they go about doing it or why these things happen, in the end it still comes down to good guys saving the day by stopping a villain who wishes to cause harm like every superhero movies.

There are no superhero movies where the story in it doesn't matter and there's no antagonist or conflict for a reason. The same reason why a Universe 6 movie would never work.

Action is part of the story. It's not separate. Stories are just what people do and say.

And it only furthers the story when the action matters. Nothing in the Universe 6 saga mattered either way meaning the action doesn't do anything for the story.