Dragonball2018.com is registered.

[ABED]

The profit motive just says they are in it for a profit, it says nothing about their strategy. Not every film/TV company is so myopic that they only think of the money from a film's theatrical run.

a villain who wishes to cause harm like every superhero movies.

Except the superheroes don't let the bad guy go in order to get a good fight later. The whole Cell arc is only possible because the good guys let the bad guys complete the construction of their instrument of destruction.

Nothing in the Universe 6 saga mattered either way meaning the action doesn't do anything for the story.

Considering that you insist that DB is a superhero story and your views on the Faulconer score, I'm not just going to take your word on it.

[MR.Mark]

Goku had every intention to have Gohan kill Cell, he also knew he had to kill kid Buu because of the threat he had over the universe. Goku himself realized finally that Freeza was never going to change and eventually killed him too with Whi's help.

Again Goku avoided fighting Super Buu at every tern, he loves a good fight, but he's not THAT stupid. Some need for self preservation will and did override his and Vegeta's need for a challenge.

[Bullza]

The profit motive just says they are in it for a profit, it says nothing about their strategy. Not every film/TV company is so myopic that they only think of the money from a film's theatrical run.

I didn't say it was the only thing, it is however the most important thing. These movies are made to make money, that is the only reason why they get made. Anything else comes second.

So having something significant to draw people in and get them to pay money is very necessary.

Except the superheroes don't let the bad guy go in order to get a good fight later.

Those are unimportant details. How they get to that point may be very different from Marvel or DC movies but in the end they all share the same idea of a good guy saving the world or Innocents from a bad guy.

That's what makes them interesting and exciting and popular. Like I said Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super is not a show where people fight for their own amusement to pass the time.

Considering that you insist that DB is a superhero story and your views on the Faulconer score, I'm not just going to take your word on it.

I never once said it was superhero story nor does a music score really have anything at all to do with the Universe 6 saga working well as a movie....

Naruto and One Piece aren't superhero stories but they too share the same idea as Marvel and DC movies. Good guys having a conflict with bad guys who wish to do evil is a proven success. The Universe 6 saga has no bad guy nor anyone wishing to do evil so there's no conflict not any importance to anything that is actually happening.

It's a non story.

[ABED]

You did say it was like The Avengers and the Justice League. You said it was a superhero story. And the reason I brought up the musical score is that is another issue where I don't trust your judgment. Given that, I'm not going to trust it on this issue. I'd rather make up my own mind.

I didn't say it was the only thing, it is however the most important thing.

I know and you miss the point of my reply. They do want to make money, and it's not limited to the theatrical release like you claimed.

Those are unimportant details.

That's a VERY fundamentally important detail because the good guys at Marvel and DC don't intentionally put the innocent people in danger. They might do it unintentionally, and they also feel really bad about it afterwards. Goku and company don't really.

That's what makes them interesting and exciting and popular.

That's not what makes the DB characters exciting and popular because that is literally what every superhero does. What makes them interesting is their personalities, the exciting fights, and the humor, etc. The fact that they fight world-wide threats is very common.

Like I said Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super is not a show where people fight for their own amusement to pass the time.

That's exactly what they do. They enter tournaments because it's fun for them. They let bad guys go because they want a more interesting fight. Interesting fights are their reason for being.

[Bullza]

You did say it was like The Avengers and the Justice League.

Well yeah, in that there are powerful good guys who battle against powerful bad guys who wish to do harm.

I know and you miss the point of my reply. They do want to make money, and it's not limited to the theatrical release like you claimed.

It's not limited to just that, they want to tell a good story as well after all. Money is still the most important though and they have to come up with significant selling points in order for it to make that money.

That's why Goku and Vegeta had Super Saiyan Blue and Frieza had his Golden Form in Resurrection F. There was no need whatsoever for them to have those forms but of course it sells.

That's a VERY fundamentally important detail because the good guys at Marvel and DC don't intentionally put the innocent people in danger.

That's a completely different matter altogether. How or why they go about doing these things is a separate discussion, no matter how they go about it, in the end the series involves super powered good guys that fight against super powered bad guys that want to destroy Earth or kill everybody.

That's what drives the story. That's what people are watching the series for protagonists and antagonists, conflicts and stakes.

That's exactly what they do. They enter tournaments because it's fun for them.

They entered the Tournament of Power because they didn't have much of a choice. The Universe Survival saga is not about mortals taking part in a Tournament just for fun and for something to do because that would be boring. That's why there's the whole thing that involves them, their family and their entire universe being wiped out if they lose so that there's a point to what's going on, something interesting and something that matters.

The Universe 6 Tournament never had that and it was never as interesting as what we have now. Universe 6 lost that Tournament and it didn't matter either way. They lose this one though and they're all dead.

[ABED]

Boring to whom? One of the best arcs in all of DB is the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai and it's just our heroes entering a tournament because it's fun. There was conflict because Goku wanted to win, but Muten Roshi didn't want him being victorious that young.

That's what drives the story. That's what people are watching the series for protagonists and antagonists, conflicts and stakes.

All you need for conflict is two people with opposing goals going up against each other. And personal stakes can be more meaningful than end of the world stakes. Something as simple as victory can be meaningful and it is for Goku. And your comment is so generic because every story needs a protagonist, conflict and stakes, otherwise it's not a story. You still have yet to make a compelling argument as to why it was fine for a TV show to do the U6 tournament but not a movie. In fact it's worse if a TV show does it because the amount of screen time spent on the arc is greater than would be spent on a movie. Why you are so vehemently against this even though you acknowledged the movies make significant changes in the retellings is baffling.

their family and their entire universe being wiped out if they lose so that there's a point to what's going on, something interesting and something that matters.

And yet the 22nd Budokai is more compelling than many of the subsequent arcs because we cared about the characters. End of the world, universe, etc. stakes aren't a substitute for emotional investment.

The Universe 6 Tournament never had that and it was never as interesting as what we have now. Universe 6 lost that Tournament and it didn't matter either way. They lose this one though and they're all dead.

Gasp! Except we know they aren't all going to die, so the stakes aren't nearly that compelling.

[Bullza]

Boring to whom? One of the best arcs in all of DB is the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai and it's just our heroes entering a tournament because it's fun.

And then over the time it got to the point where they had the same Tournament but this time it had a true antagonist with Piccolo, who was trying to kill Goku and had he done so would have taken over the world.

There isn't a single Dragon Ball Z movie out of the many that have been made, that is about them just having a fun time. They all have antagonists and stakes because it sells.

All you need for conflict is two people with opposing goals going up against each other.

That's cleary not true considering pretty much every saga in the series involves humanity, the planet or the universe being at stake. The Cell Games Tournament was not just about Goku and Gohan fighting Cell and seeing who wins. It was about them having to win or everybody would die.

You still have yet to make a compelling argument as to why it was fine for a TV show to do the U6 tournament but not a movie.

I already told you why. The Universe 6 saga immediately followed two other intense sagas where the Earth was in peril. It was designed to just be a fun story.

It wasn't made to be a gripping story that's meant to pull you into theatres to spend money seeing it. Again, of the 15 Dragon Ball Z movies they've made not a single one has been about them having a fun time with no threat involved.

Gasp! Except we know they aren't all going to die, so the stakes aren't nearly that compelling.

They won't but everyone else will. If it wasn't a necessary plot device then it wouldn't have been a thing. You're arguing against the franchise with all of this.

[ABED]

While this has been interesting, I don't think you really grasp what DB is at its core or even basic storytelling. Upping the stakes by increasing the potential body count isn't a shortcut to emotionally engaging stories. If that were true, then the Buu arc would be the most compelling because the sheer scale of the story and the stakes. However, I would argue that it's not. I'm not emotionally engaged by those stakes. I and others were emotionally engaged to smaller and more personal stories like the 21st and 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

[TheMikado]

so do we know what this is yet or still no?

[Dbzfan94]

There isn't a single Dragon Ball Z movie out of the many that have been made, that is about them just having a fun time. They all have antagonists and stakes because it sells.

To be fair, the 'having a fun time' movie is like half of Battle of Gods.

[ABED]

And stakes don't sell. Do we care about the characters because of the stakes or is it the other way around?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

so do we know what this is yet or still no?

So far, nothing. Just speculation.

[ABED]

Most of the DB movies are around 50 minutes, but the newer ones are on the longer side. Given that DB Super is airing weekly, I'd prefer a shorter movie.

[Meshack]

I would prefer movies to shorten the arc but I don’t know if the animators would want to animate the same thing again but then again, for One Piece they keep doing specials of older arcs. Besides that, I would like to see Toriyama’s interpretations of the arcs because that’s basically what the movies ares compared to Super. Then again, Toriyama gave the animators freedom to do stuff so I doubt that’s a possibility. I would honestly want new stuff that’s non-related to the main story/continuity. Preferably movies that take place in an alternate dimension like the older DB movies.

But I doubt these movies are from TOEI. I believe they would have shared knowledge on that already

[sintzu]

Most of the DB movies are around 50 minutes, but the newer ones are on the longer side. Given that DB Super is airing weekly, I'd prefer a shorter movie.

I'd also like shorter ones that are released once a year and keep the long stories for the show.

[Bullza]

I don't think you really grasp what DB is at its core or even basic storytelling.

No that's definitely you I'm afraid. Again you're arguing against the series itself, you say stakes don't sell and yet that's what they've done, for 15 out of 15 Dragon Ball Z movies and the overwhelming vast majority of Dragon Ball Z, Super and GT sagas.

They don't make pointless movies where nothing matters because it's just about them having fun.

If that were true, then the Buu arc would be the most compelling because the sheer scale of the story and the stakes.

That's not what it's about.

And stakes don't sell. Do we care about the characters because of the stakes or is it the other way around?

Stakes don't sell and yet where are all the superhero movies or James Bond movies where there are no stakes and it is instead revolves around the character just having fun?

By your logic they could make an Iron Man movie where he just makes kids happy by going to parties, going on a picnic with Pepper Potts and has a fun game of arm wrestling with War Machine because we people are just in it for the character right?

To be fair, the 'having a fun time' movie is like half of Battle of Gods.

Oh that's right and it was the drastically worse half as well that has been criticized quite heavily because it was just a complete waste of time where nothing happened at what could have gone towards developing the paper thin story.

So yeah that's a good example. An entire movie like that would be a failure.

[sintzu]

An entire movie like that would be a failure.

No one goes to DB to see characters having fun, we want to see super powered aliens punch each other and blow sh*t up. If anyone wants to see slice of life movies then they'll go to ones that are known for that.

Taking the action out of DB is like taking pepperoni out of a Pizza, you do that and your business is dead.

I don't mind slice of life episodes every now and then between big events to let us take a break but there's no way an entire movie like that would work. I also agree about BOG, had those 10+ minutes wasted on Pilaf put to something more useful then I think we would've ended up with a far better movie.

Boring to whom? One of the best arcs in all of DB is the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai...

Which was only the 2nd arc, people's expectations for the franchise have changed now. GT's writers also thought that going all the way back was a good idea and it cost them the entire show.

How much money do you think the next Batman movie would make if WB announced it was inspired by the 60's show and it'll have the same style and tone ? by your logic that should work now because it did in the past right ?

[ABED]

I'm not arguing against stakes. I'm saying end of the world isn't the only stake that matters. And never once did I say they should make a pointless movie. Not once.

By your logic...

Stop creating a strawman. I didn't that there should be no stakes. I said there are more personal stakes. For instance, Logan isn't about stopping the end of the world, it's about his one last ride and saving his daughter.

Oh that's right and it was the drastically worse half as well that has been criticized quite heavily because it was just a complete waste of time where nothing happened at what could have gone towards developing the paper thin story.

Actually it's the more fun half because the fight wasn't that great. It was okay. And what basis do you have for saying it was quite heavily criticized? It's one of things people enjoyed most about that movie and not one is saying the whole movie should be that. You are arguing against strawmen. Upping the stakes can also create a paper thin story. The end of the world isn't enough to make it compelling. ANd your James Bond example doesn't work because Bond is out to save the world. He's a government spy out to save Britain, but even there, look at Skyfall. The story about the list of agents was dropped about halfway through the movie and it became all about trying to save M. Hell, he couldn't even do that, but it's still one of the best Bond movies and one of the most successful.

Which was only the 2nd arc, people's expectations for the franchise have changed now. GT's writers also thought that going all the way back was a good idea and it cost them the entire show.

How much money do you think the next Batman movie would make if WB announced it was inspired by the 60's show and it'll have the same style and tone ? by your logic that should work now because it did in the past right?

Would you guys pelease stop saying "by your logic" and miss it by a mile? The problem isn't going back to the beginning. The problem is the execution. How about instead of assuming, ask? It should also be noted that the 21st Budokai was when DB began to rise in popularity, and that wasn't the arc GT chose to emulate. They chose the arc that if I recall was almost cancelled.

Lastly, people's expectations can change.

[sintzu]

The problem isn't going back to the beginning. The problem is the execution.

It doesn't matter how well executed it is, people don't go to DB for that. You can make the best chocolate Ice cream in the world but if people go to you for strawberry then they're going to be disappointed.

[ABED]

The problem isn't going back to the beginning. The problem is the execution.

It doesn't matter how well executed it is, people don't go to DB for that. You can make the best chocolate Ice cream in the world but if people go to you for strawberry then they're going to be disappointed.

Execution always matters. It's pretty much all that matters. The problem with your analogy is people don't always know what they want until you show it to them. You can up the stakes all you want, but if people don't care about the characters, no amount of destruction is going to mean anything to them. Case in point, I've seen more people care about that elderly couple who were killed by that rich sniper and his lackey than the millions/billions killed by Buu when he exterminated everyone on Earth. There was a more visceral reaction because of the smaller scale. The scale and the stakes don't have to be universe or world ending to matter. The battle for Tenshinhan's soul was a well executed dramatic story.

In your analogy, what's the chocolate ice cream?