Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:00 pm

Another good episode, probably good as last week.

- What with that scene spoiling the fight before the episode opening? :lol:

- Goku vs. Caulifla was amazing, well done and good animated, that's includes when Kale join the fight too.

- Sorry, but I don't buy Whis bullsh*t. He said the only reason base Goku was keeping with SSJ2 Caulifla was because he was calculating her speed and moves in the fight? I mean when the f*** DB was like this? If that was that case why not let Krillin do the same with a SSJ3-tier opponent? :eh:

- Love that Goku used the Afterimage technique, I don't remember the last time he used :think:

- That was one of the most epic Super Saiyan 3 transformation we had in the franchise, too bad it only lasted seconds.

- Also too bad we only will see Goku fighting LSSJ Kale in the next episode.

- I think I can drop this whole "wtf Goku is so dumb" by now, he didn't used SSJ3 knowing he still has to recover his stamina and he's not the one who will teach fusion to the girls.

- Whis said there are only 23 minutes lefts for the tournament and then the narrator states in the end of the episode there are now only 22? I mean this whole fight lasted only one minute? Are you F****** kidding me? :|
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Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

Post by The gr » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:03 pm

A weak episode after the amazing back to back episode i expected more from this.
    The premise is good but they way they executed was just not good with a freaking base goku beating a ss2 caulifla,yes they explained,couldn't they done that with ss1 instead of base to make this figth look less stupid.
      This episode had no flow with the commentary and battles,it doesn't help with a bunch of re uses shot and with the animation being bad at some place made this episode very weak along with champa being annoying as hell.
        I did liked kale,caulifla,their teamwork and ss3 sadly that wasn't enough to saved this episode,nothing else to say here.
        Last edited by The gr on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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        Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

        Post by Xeztin » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:03 pm

        Pretty great episode! Loved the fights and it seems that Goku called Kale "The True Legendary Super Saiyan" so I guess it is indeed the same form as Broly's. Berserk or Legendary SSJ, which ever one prefers. Seems Kelfla comes by Potara, probably by Champa being pissed off and ripping them off his Kaioshin's ears and throwing them out to them. They'll reach Super Saiyan 3 this way I'd say but I wonder if it'll be Legendary SSJ3? Like with Broly? Or perhaps God Kalefla :lol:

        There is definately something unique about Kale as her hair is green even as a normal SSJ, though it extends her height.... I guess those forms are unique to Kale but I hope they go into details when they visit Planet Sadala of why Kale has these unique genes, I look for Broly to be her brother I swear. We'll probably meet him then.

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        Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

        Post by Boo Machine » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:18 pm

        LightBing wrote: I know they "justified" Goku being in base and giving a beating to Caulifla. That doesn't fly with me, you can't just ignore well established rules to this degree. .
        They sure as hell can. This isn't a video game. There aren't any rules that state that "if Enemy saiyan is in state [ NUM ] then user saiyan must be =< state to engage or face loss" . Even if it was a rule, it's a shitty rule and I'm glad they're ignoring it and that someone doesn't need straight up power for a guarenteed win and can rely on their decades of skill and abilities.

        Goku is the better fighter and they showed that without having to resort to Hair color to indicate it.
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        Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

        Post by Jigurashi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:18 pm

        Noah wrote:Another good episode, probably good as last week.

        - What with that scene spoiling the fight before the episode opening? :lol:

        - Goku vs. Caulifla was amazing, well done and good animated, that's includes when Kale join the fight too.

        - Sorry, but I don't buy Whis bullsh*t. He said the only reason base Goku was keeping with SSJ2 Caulifla was because he was calculating her speed and moves in the fight? I mean when the f*** DB was like this? If that was that case why not let Krillin do the same with a SSJ3-tier opponent? :eh:

        - Love that Goku used the Afterimage technique, I don't remember the last time he used :think:

        - That was one of the most epic Super Saiyan 3 transformation we had in the franchise, too bad it only lasted seconds.

        - Also too bad we only will see Goku fighting LSSJ Kale in the next episode.

        - I think I can drop this whole "wtf Goku is so dumb" by now, he didn't used SSJ3 knowing he still has to recover his stamina and he's not the one who will teach fusion to the girls.

        - Whis said there are only 23 minutes lefts for the tournament and then the narrator states in the end of the episode there are now only 22? I mean this whole fight lasted only one minute? Are you F****** kidding me? :|
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        Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

        Post by Totamo » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:21 pm

        The gr wrote:A weak episode after the amazing back to back episode i expected more from this.
          The premise is good but they way they executed was just not good with a freaking base goku beating a ss2 caulifla,yes they explained,couldn't they done that with ss1 instead of base to make this figth look less stupid.
            This episode had no flow with the commentary and battles,it doesn't help with a bunch of re uses shot and with the animation being bad at some place made this episode very weak along with champa being annoying as hell.
              I did liked kale,caulifla,their teamwork and ss3 sadly that wasn't enough to saved this episode,nothing else to say here.
              Wait. How is base goku beating caulifla stupid? Even if it was just based on power, base Goku should be stronger than any super saiyan transformation unless its coming from Vegeta.

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by MegaBossMan » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:21 pm

              Okay, I'll need a little elaboration here, why is base Goku handling a Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla that much of an issue? People have made a big deal that skills and tactics should take precedence over basic and straightforward brute force, now that Super's finally delivered on that .....it's an issue? I'm sorry, but I just don't get it; if anything I hope Super takes this mindset more often in the future. Caulifla's strong but she's an incredibly basic "strike-first-hit-second" fighter, with Goku's big advantage being his experience in battling I figured it naturally made sense he'd be able to out-maneuver the second time around. This is the one fight Caulifla's unanimously written as not a Mary Sue, I figured that's what most of us wanted?
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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by HeroR » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:24 pm

              SirTorra wrote:Power levels are a thing of the past, how sad. A tired base goku can go toe to toe with ss2 cauli (should have been like that since the start) yet a ss2 goku is being pushed around by ss2 cauli even though hes 100x stronger than his base form? Let me guess gokus holding back right? Also i really dig Kales adult form.
              Did you missed Whis' entire speech about how there is more to fighting that just pure power and Cali started to get the advantage on Goku after she started to learn instead of blindly attack?
              Kanassa wrote:
              precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
              Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by HeroR » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:27 pm

              RedHeat wrote:Subs really do make a difference!

              At first, I thought this was just a 'middle of the road' tier but solid episode, but finding out what they're actually saying it turned out pretty amazing.

              Caulifla mentioning that she has to pick up the slack for her team due to hit being out is a pretty nice development, as well as Goku being a mentor figure.
              This is true for all episodes, even one that are heavy battle focused. This is part of the reason this thread are locked now before sub and Herms' summery came out. Too much knee-jerk reaction.
              Boo Machine wrote:
              LightBing wrote: I know they "justified" Goku being in base and giving a beating to Caulifla. That doesn't fly with me, you can't just ignore well established rules to this degree. .
              They sure as hell can. This isn't a video game. There aren't any rules that state that "if Enemy saiyan is in state [ NUM ] then user saiyan must be =< state to engage or face loss" . Even if it was a rule, it's a shitty rule and I'm glad they're ignoring it and that someone doesn't need straight up power for a guarenteed win and can rely on their decades of skill and abilities.

              Goku is the better fighter and they showed that without having to resort to Hair color to indicate it.
              Thank for for this. Couldn't have put it better.
              Last edited by HeroR on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
              Kanassa wrote:
              precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
              Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:32 pm

              Tombstone1988 wrote: -I guess Caulifla is like Broly now? In other words, she somehow continues to grow more powerful the more she fights? What? This makes zero sense. Does not compute! :wtf:
              Didn't Uub also do this while he was fighting Goku?

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by HeroR » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:34 pm

              BlueBasilisk wrote:
              Tombstone1988 wrote: -I guess Caulifla is like Broly now? In other words, she somehow continues to grow more powerful the more she fights? What? This makes zero sense. Does not compute! :wtf:
              Didn't Uub also do this while he was fighting Goku?
              Yes, it called evolving through fighting and we have seen it several times in Super already with Hit, Black, and even Goku with Super Saiyan God and UI.
              MegaBossMan wrote:Okay, I'll need a little elaboration here, why is base Goku handling a Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla that much of an issue? People have made a big deal that skills and tactics should take precedence over basic and straightforward brute force, now that Super's finally delivered on that .....it's an issue? I'm sorry, but I just don't get it; if anything I hope Super takes this mindset more often in the future. Caulifla's strong but she's an incredibly basic "strike-first-hit-second" fighter, with Goku's big advantage being his experience in battling I figured it naturally made sense he'd be able to out-maneuver the second time around. This is the one fight Caulifla's unanimously written as not a Mary Sue, I figured that's what most of us wanted?
              I find it weird that people are still calling Cali a Sue when she had trouble with base form Goku until she stopped fighting like a thug and Whis even called her a street fighter and not a martial artists. She was also at best even with Goku even when she started to get her act together and Goku was still able to handle both her and Kale at the same time. Most of all, she didn't get Super Saiyan 3 that people complained about for a week.

              Yet, she's still a Sue, I guess because she didn't get his ass beating into the ground, got praised for Goku for her growth (which he does for almost everyone), and because 'she still arrogant'.

              One of my favorite personal moments in the episode is Cali saying that she wanted Super Saiyan 3 not only for its power, but because Hit and Cabba were knocked out and she could do nothing about it and how she wanted to take up their burden. Which shows that through her arrogance, there is a underline desire to help her team and universe.
              Last edited by HeroR on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
              Kanassa wrote:
              precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
              Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:40 pm

              This episode was fun but nothing too write home about. Now next week's episode looks like something fierce.
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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by Tombstone1988 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:44 pm

              Boo Machine wrote:
              LightBing wrote: I know they "justified" Goku being in base and giving a beating to Caulifla. That doesn't fly with me, you can't just ignore well established rules to this degree. .
              They sure as hell can. This isn't a video game. There aren't any rules that state that "if Enemy saiyan is in state [ NUM ] then user saiyan must be =< state to engage or face loss" . Even if it was a rule, it's a shitty rule and I'm glad they're ignoring it and that someone doesn't need straight up power for a guarenteed win and can rely on their decades of skill and abilities.

              Goku is the better fighter and they showed that without having to resort to Hair color to indicate it.
              In another series I might agree, but this is the Dragon Ball franchise. The entirety of DBZ has shown that no amount of skill can overcome an overwhelming difference in power. Piccolo and Krillin employed similar tactics against Nappa as Goku did against Caulifla this episode, but they sure as hell didn't do anywhere near as well. Vegeta is a Saiyan elite, born and bred in battle, yet he got absolutely destroyed by 18, a genetically modified human with zero practical battle experience. Perfect Cell had the DNA of every single Z-fighter, including their techniques, battle styles and fighting knowledge. Despite this, he couldn't do a thing to SSJ2 Gohan. Skill can overcome power if the difference is small, but power trumps skill in large enough amounts. That was very clearly established.

              So yes, Goku is the better fighter. The difference between a fatigued base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla should be too large for that to matter, though.
              "If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by HeroR » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:47 pm

              Tombstone1988 wrote:
              Boo Machine wrote:
              LightBing wrote: I know they "justified" Goku being in base and giving a beating to Caulifla. That doesn't fly with me, you can't just ignore well established rules to this degree. .
              They sure as hell can. This isn't a video game. There aren't any rules that state that "if Enemy saiyan is in state [ NUM ] then user saiyan must be =< state to engage or face loss" . Even if it was a rule, it's a shitty rule and I'm glad they're ignoring it and that someone doesn't need straight up power for a guarenteed win and can rely on their decades of skill and abilities.

              Goku is the better fighter and they showed that without having to resort to Hair color to indicate it.
              In another series I might agree, but this is the Dragon Ball franchise. The entirety of DBZ has shown that no amount of skill can overcome an overwhelming difference in power. Piccolo and Krillin employed similar tactics against Nappa as Goku did against Caulifla this episode, but they sure as hell didn't do anywhere near as well. Vegeta is a Saiyan elite, born and bred in battle, yet he got absolutely destroyed by 18, a genetically modified human with zero practical battle experience. Perfect Cell had the DNA of every single Z-fighter, including their techniques, battle styles and fighting knowledge. Despite this, he couldn't do a thing to SSJ2 Gohan. Skill can overcome power if the difference is small, but power trumps skill in large enough amounts. That was very clearly established.

              So yes, Goku is the better fighter. The difference between a fatigued base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla should be too large for that to matter, though.
              Except we have already seen in Super skill beating pure strength with Roshi and Genos. Piccolo also almost beat Frost despite the power different.
              Kanassa wrote:
              precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
              Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by hardcorefakes » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:48 pm

              Boo Machine wrote:Even if it was a rule, it's a shitty rule and I'm glad they're ignoring it and that someone doesn't need straight up power for a guarenteed win and can rely on their decades of skill and abilities.
              I'm no fan of Caulifla....but this "rule" has been a standard trope of DB since.....well, forever. The person with the higher battle power will always win, no matter what. Skill and technique could only get you so far before you were completely outclassed.

              If this were OG Dragon Ball, I'd be left to assume that Goku's base is stronger than SSJ2 Caulifla.

              But this is Super, so they kind of do whatever they want to.

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by Boo Machine » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:49 pm

              Tombstone1988 wrote: In another series I might agree, but this is the Dragon Ball franchise. The entirety of DBZ has shown that no amount of skill can overcome an overwhelming difference in power. Piccolo and Krillin employed similar tactics against Nappa as Goku did against Caulifla this episode, but they sure as hell didn't do anywhere near as well. Vegeta is a Saiyan elite, born and bred in battle, yet he got absolutely destroyed by 18, a genetically modified human with zero practical battle experience. Perfect Cell had the DNA of every single Z-fighter, including their techniques, battle styles and fighting knowledge. Despite this, he couldn't do a thing to SSJ2 Gohan. Skill can overcome power if the difference is small, but power trumps skill in large enough amounts. That was very clearly established.

              So yes, Goku is the better fighter. The difference between a fatigued base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla should be too large for that to matter, though.
              Oh I know perfectly well What Z did. I just don't care. It was dumb and it's the reason so many fighters except for the Saiyan characters, who can yell their numbers bigger, get left behind. If Super want's to ignore all that then go for it. Let Krillin beat someone on SSJ level with smarts, skills, and creativity. I'd rather that then the constant escalation until the meme of Gohan having to go Blanco and beat the almighty Grande Padre, the gods of gods of gods of gods of angels of gods, becomes reality.

              If it's inconsistent then it's the one Inconsistency I hope they keep making. Power levels can get fucked. I get no joy from watching fighters constantly tank hits because numbers.

              I might be exaggerating a bit. Obviously I'd want an ideal spot of both Power levels and Skills and abilites to be balanced out. What I don't want is the balance to go into either extreme. The balance tipping into the power level extreme one too many times is what caused all this shit in the first place.
              Last edited by Boo Machine on Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by BWri » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:50 pm

              Thought I'd end up skipping this one, since I dislike the U6 Saiyans and how the writers have been using Goku but I actually liked Goku a lot in this one. I love his character most when he's the underdog and this episode even gave a brief glimpse of pure martial artist Goku. Seeing Goku use tricky techniques really made me miss that aspect of his fighting style. If only I could get more of this Goku. I also actually liked Kale and Caulifla in this one, and while not a huge fan of modern Saiyans or Saiyan transformations, I was pretty hyped up throughout this fight. Logic was good, power scaling made since, choreography was good, and I liked the character interactions like that unexpected dialogue between an intense Krillin and Shin. Great episode.
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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by Jigurashi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:53 pm

              BWri wrote:Thought I'd end up skipping this one, since I dislike the U6 Saiyans and how the writers have been using Goku but I actually liked Goku a lot in this one. I love his character most when he's the underdog and this episode even gave a brief glimpse of pure martial artist Goku. Seeing Goku use tricky techniques really made me miss that aspect of his fighting style. If only I could get more of this Goku. I also actually liked Kale and Caulifla in this one, and while not a huge fan of modern Saiyans or Saiyan transformations, I was pretty hyped up throughout this fight. Logic was good, power scaling made since, choreography was good, and I liked the character interactions like that unexpected dialogue between an intense Krillin and Shin. Great episode.
              You get skill martial artist Goku fairly often in DB (in Super more so than most of Z). The next episode even has him bringing back ki blasts from his feet again.

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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:59 pm

              With ep 114 preview implications I'm now laughting at the old conspiracy theories certain users here where making months ago about a certain character being dumped and replaced by Caulifla/Kale during production.
              Lore is NOT story, and it never was, and you should stop spreading this nonsense.
              Content is NOT substance.
              Bunch of characters doing stuff do NOT make an esemble cast.
              Secondary characters are secondary, they do NOT deserve or are entitled to having more screen time.
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              Re: Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

              Post by BWri » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:02 am

              Hopefully whoever wrote this episode comes back for the next, because it's the first time I had absolutely no problem with Kale or Caulifla, well aside from the obvious asking an enemy to train you in a fight for universal survival, but Goku is weird enough to go along with it so more power to them. Caulifla's problem was just her poor introduction. If only they'd established that Cabba had already taught some U6 Saiyans including the girls just after the U6/U7 tourney then this 48 hour miracle that Caulifla and Kale are pulling wouldn't seem like utter BS and bad writing, but it's easy to see that they have been writing her a lot better since her first two or three appearances. When I saw that she struggled to retransform into SSJ2 about ten episodes ago, I hated her a little less. After 113, I don't think it's accurate to call her a Mary Sue, but you could before and wouldn't be wrong.
              HeroR wrote:
              BlueBasilisk wrote:
              Tombstone1988 wrote: -I guess Caulifla is like Broly now? In other words, she somehow continues to grow more powerful the more she fights? What? This makes zero sense. Does not compute! :wtf:
              Didn't Uub also do this while he was fighting Goku?
              Yes, it called evolving through fighting and we have seen it several times in Super already with Hit, Black, and even Goku with Super Saiyan God and UI.
              MegaBossMan wrote:Okay, I'll need a little elaboration here, why is base Goku handling a Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla that much of an issue? People have made a big deal that skills and tactics should take precedence over basic and straightforward brute force, now that Super's finally delivered on that .....it's an issue? I'm sorry, but I just don't get it; if anything I hope Super takes this mindset more often in the future. Caulifla's strong but she's an incredibly basic "strike-first-hit-second" fighter, with Goku's big advantage being his experience in battling I figured it naturally made sense he'd be able to out-maneuver the second time around. This is the one fight Caulifla's unanimously written as not a Mary Sue, I figured that's what most of us wanted?
              I find it weird that people are still calling Cali a Sue when she had trouble with base form Goku until she stopped fighting like a thug and Whis even called her a street fighter and not a martial artists. She was also at best even with Goku even when she started to get her act together and Goku was still able to handle both her and Kale at the same time. Most of all, she didn't get Super Saiyan 3 that people complained about for a week.

              Yet, she's still a Sue, I guess because she didn't get his ass beating into the ground, got praised for Goku for her growth (which he does for almost everyone), and because 'she still arrogant'.

              One of my favorite personal moments in the episode is Cali saying that she wanted Super Saiyan 3 not only for its power, but because Hit and Cabba were knocked out and she could do nothing about it and how she wanted to take up their burden. Which shows that through her arrogance, there is a underline desire to help her team and universe.
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