Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

[emperior]

I loved this episode. Goku beating Caulifla around in his base was awesome, it really showed that Goku is a martial artist. Don't you remember what Korin's and Popo's training were about? It makes sense that Goku is better than an untrained brawler, and it's also a plus that power levels don't matter as much anymore.
I also liked how Goku was fighting, it truly felt like him with all those smooth moves and Zanzoken, which I like a lot.

[gohan_black]

dident liked this episode. the fight scenes were really lame. i dont like both caluifia and kale. both of them are annoying

[AvatarReiko]

DId I miss something? How does Caulifa even know about the existence od SSJ3? Has she seen Goku use it or something?

[Yedis]

DId I miss something? How does Caulifa even know about the existence od SSJ3? Has she seen Goku use it or something?

Goku told her about it the first time they fought.

[nitemare]

Not a bad episode altogether even though I'd prefer watching Toppo vs Vegeta and/or some androids action. The bit about Goku having a proper martial-arts background and Caulifla looking more like a noisy brawler was nice. I just wish someone already took out these chibi saiyans. Freeza pretty please?

[TheGodfather93]

Even though it's been pretty well established at this point that Goku will do stupid shit for the sake of a good fight, I can't help but get annoyed whenever it happens. This time, he's teaching his opponents to get stronger while in the middle of a tournament that's supposed to decide the fate of his entire universe. On top of that, he briefly turns SSJ3, which is already a huge stamina drain, while trying to recover stamina in the first place.

My grievances with Goku aside, I didn't think this episode was anything special. It was nowhere near as bad as episode 100, which I think is by far the worst episode in this entire arc, but it wasn't too enjoyable either. The fight between Goku and Caulifla was boring, and I found the choreography quit lacking. It mainly consisted of Goku and Caulila just punching the crap out of each other. There were some decent moments, like the afterimage, and I did enjoy seeing base Goku doing well against SSJ2 Caulifla, but other than that I just didn't dig it too much. Things got a bit more interesting when Kale joined, but I absolutely despise Kale as a character, so my inherent bias meant I couldn't properly appreciate the fight from that point on. I have to admit though, I do quite like the look of her controlled SSJ form. I wish they'd just gone with that as her transformation instead of turning her into a Broly clone. I definitely wouldn't have as much of an issue with her character if that was the case.

I also wasn't a fan of the episode focusing only on Goku, Caulifla and Kale. I don't like the Saiyan girls anywhere near enough to warrant enjoying an episode in which they're the main stars. Again, that's just my bias talking, but I can't help it. I'd be far more interested in seeing Gohan and Piccolo taking on the two U6 Namekians, Vegeta going up against Toppo, or even Vegeta finally finishing off Ribrianne.

[Cipher]

Awesome episode. Nothing wrong with it except that one scene with Krillin acting amazed by two ssj2's fighting as if he's never seen anything grander than that lol

That line stood out to me as being very silly. As if he hadn't seen grander things than that less than two minutes ago in-universe.

Also, isn't Vegeta fighting Toppo somewhere in the arena at the same time?

Some silliness with the structure within the overall tournament aside, this wound up feeling like a kind of forgettable episode to me. It was all action, but it had very little flow and didn't really continue the escalating tension from the previous few weeks. I think the tournament would benefit from more cutting in between fights to show the sense of franticness at this point, but oh well. Kafela should be fun.

[precita]

I'm calling it now, Caulifa and Kale will come to U7 and become mainstays of the cast for the rest of the series.

[Saturnine]

So Kale was fighting as a regular Super Saiyan in this episode? In her Beserk form she was able to walk through a blast from Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

So you're saying this stage should put her on Blue level, but it's likely not going to be like that.

You were told Goku just used a fraction of his Blue power then, you refused to believe

it's also a plus that power levels don't matter as much anymore.

Are you sure about that? The same was the case in Dragon Ball Z filler, such as Yamcha > Olibu and many more. This only introduces chaos and confusion.

[JazzMazz]

Even though it's been pretty well established at this point that Goku will do stupid shit for the sake of a good fight, I can't help but get annoyed whenever it happens. This time, he's teaching his opponents to get stronger while in the middle of a tournament that's supposed to decide the fate of his entire universe. On top of that, he briefly turns SSJ3, which is already a huge stamina drain, while trying to recover stamina in the first place.

Eh, I didn't think Goku was particularly egregious this episode. Though his opponent was improving while they fought, I think it was also implied that he was improving as well. Also, the turning SS3 thing might have also been a little bit out of necessity, as he transformed in order to block there attacks.

Other than that, I agree with you. This episode for me was just kind of fluff. It was an episode long warm-up battle. Now lets just hope the actual fight next episode is good(it should at least from a visual stand-point, they apparently got a really talented animator on board, so thats something to look forward to).

[Saturnine]

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus. I also think people are going overboard since Goku was eventually forced to used Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 against Cali since he couldn't keep up in just base form after awhile, so I don't see why this is an issue.

The thing is, he didn't do much better in SSj2 than he did in base. That alone suggests that 1) Base Goku is like dozens of times stronger than base Caulifila, which goes against what was previously established 2) SSj2 isn't 100x base, else he'd have knocked Caulifla out by sneezing on her.

Power level inconsistencies are a bad thing.

[Ziegander]

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus. I also think people are going overboard since Goku was eventually forced to used Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 against Cali since he couldn't keep up in just base form after awhile, so I don't see why this is an issue.

The thing is, he didn't do much better in SSj2 than he did in base. That alone suggests that 1) Base Goku is like dozens of times stronger than base Caulifila, which goes against what was previously established 2) SSj2 isn't 100x base, else he'd have knocked Caulifla out by sneezing on her.

Power level inconsistencies are a bad thing.

But Saturnine, Cauli was obviously holding back.

Ah, how the tables have turned.

[Kanassa]

It was a good fight. And it was nice seeing both GOku and Cali force each other to improve their power.

[JazzMazz]

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus. I also think people are going overboard since Goku was eventually forced to used Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 against Cali since he couldn't keep up in just base form after awhile, so I don't see why this is an issue.

The thing is, he didn't do much better in SSj2 than he did in base. That alone suggests that 1) Base Goku is like dozens of times stronger than base Caulifila, which goes against what was previously established 2) SSj2 isn't 100x base, else he'd have knocked Caulifla out by sneezing on her.

Power level inconsistencies are a bad thing.

The series is trying its hardest to reel power levels in. Thats why Base Goku who was extremely weakened was able to kick the crap out of Caulifla using his fighting experience and skills and the only way Caulifla was able to counter was to adapt to his fighting style.

[HeroR]

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus. I also think people are going overboard since Goku was eventually forced to used Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 against Cali since he couldn't keep up in just base form after awhile, so I don't see why this is an issue.

The thing is, he didn't do much better in SSj2 than he did in base. That alone suggests that 1) Base Goku is like dozens of times stronger than base Caulifila, which goes against what was previously established 2) SSj2 isn't 100x base, else he'd have knocked Caulifla out by sneezing on her.

Power level inconsistencies are a bad thing.

The episode outright said that Cali was getting and stronger, so Goku matching that make perfect sense. Also, 'Base Goku is like dozens of times stronger than base Caulifila' is your headcanon since no one said such a thing anywhere.

[sintzu]

We've never seen a fight between 2 Ssj3s so hopefully they really deliver on it. This was just a warm up for what's to come and was alright so I'm expecting they're saving everything for that fight.

I'm calling it now, Caulifa and Kale will come to U7 and become mainstays of the cast for the rest of the series.

Vegeta said he'd bring back their planet but nothing about bringing back U6 so he could have it wished back in U7.

[Tombstone1988]

I re-watched the episode, and it really hammered home a few points to me. I feel I should go over the episode to slowly build up why I felt it didn't really work. First of all, it starts with Goku quite clearly saying he can't use all of his power, as he's still weakened from his fight with Jiren. Caulifla then swoops in and knocks away all 3 robots individually in her base form. Afterwards, she states that, thanks to Cabba, she's recovered all of her strength and goes SSJ2. She asks Goku to teach her SSJ3, which he immediately agrees to. She asks why he doesn't transform, and he states it's because he's still tired from facing Jiren. The two then fight, with Caulifla flying in and attacking. All of her attacks miss and Goku is able to evade her almost flawlessly. He then outpaces her (as a tired, base form Goku no less) to counterattack. Whis interrupts and says strength is no match for true martial arts (which is BS if you consider DBZ, but whatever). Afterwards, he utilizes both the Afterimage technique and Instant Transmission to gain an edge over her in what was probably the better part of the fight, in my opinion.

Now, everything up until this point hasn't really been all that bad. The two main points, however, are that Goku has stated multiple times that he's fatigued and that Caulifla apparently is little more than a brawler. Keep this in mind as I continue here. So, Caulifla manages to block one of Goku's IT attacks. He compliments her and they go into a series of close-range attacks. The two are even and end up clashing fists, with worn-out base Goku clashing evenly with Caulifla. Whis interjects again, saying that Caulifla has a massive amount of potential, and fighting Goku is bringing all of that potential out (keep in mind that this is all happening over the course of a few seconds; not days, not hours, not even minutes, but a few seconds). Beerus questions Whis, claiming "Didn't you say she was just a brawler?" Whis responds by acting aloof; "Oh, did I say that?"

So now we've backpedaled on the "Caulifla is just a simple brawler" idea. Continuing on, they keep fighting equally until Caulifla eventually lands a kick. Goku then goes SSJ2 (it's definitely SSJ2, you can see the lightning effects) and the two fight... and it's just as equal as it was prior to transforming. The fight looks almost exactly the same as before he transformed, albeit now he has golden hair. Seriously, their attacks continue to be equal in strength, Caulifla still manages to get in a hit and the two clash ki blasts, with them canceling out. Goku then apparently has the gall to say that she's apparently gained mastery over SSJ2, despite their fight being literally less than a minute in-universe: "I know I told you that you'll need to master Super Saiyan 2 first, but this is beyond what I imagined."

This is where everything comes together, in my opinion. Despite being seemingly "fatigued," Goku flawlessly avoids everything Caulifla throws at him initially and simultaneously continues to grow stronger and stronger. He even knocks her around as if he's toying with her; in fact, he may well be. But that runs counter to being "fatigued;" so why hammer home this point if you're going to basically immediately dismiss it? Caulifla is stated to be a simple brawler, but she is apparently so "filled with potential" that she can overcome that in a few seconds and immediately counter Goku. Why introduce the concept if you're going to immediately do a 180 on it? Finally, they have Goku transform, but there is no visible indication to any improvement on Goku's part upon powering up. What is the point, then? Why indicate a jump in power if visually he appears to do just as well as he was doing before transforming?

That leads to the ultimate point on why this episode didn't really work for me: nothing felt important. It all felt like pure filler to just eat up a bit of time. A setup to the eventual fusion that's coming. I gained nothing from the episode save seeing Goku be more enjoyable as a character than he was for most of the tournament. I gained nothing from this episode. And now I've spent all this time making this point on why I gained nothing from this episode. Guess the joke's on me. Anyway, I hope this can better clarify why I felt this episode didn't work for me.

Watched the episode again, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm getting tired of the arc. I've got tournament fatigue. All this fighting is leaving me bored, and nothing new happened in this episode. Nobody got a power-up, nobody got eliminated, no new characters were introduced, and nobody was really challenged in any interesting way. Caulifla isn't trying to knock Goku out, I understand her motivations, she feels like if U6 is going to stand a chance that she needs to get stronger and that Goku is her only chance of gaining more power at this point in the tournament. But this episode was just filler. One long brawl that didn't amount to anything. I have other issues with it like Goku's stamina, power scaling being all. over. the place, etc, but the main problem for me is, this arc is dragging along as it is and one whole episode of fighting in which there aren't any stakes and no actual results is more of what this arc doesn't need.

Excellent post. It tackles a few of the episode's main issues without having to talk about any sort of "power levels" or "multipliers" that seem to be people's main sticking points.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Easily the best episode besides #109-110. Nice callbacks and to have Goku turn SS2 like it's not nothing was nice too. SS3 thing was pure fan service lol it felt like Toei saying yes we know this form exists here

Still hate the SS colouring but whatever.

So turned out people were wrong about Cauli and SS3, say it ain't so! Like these people ain't learned their lesson from last time.

[TheGodfather93]

Even though it's been pretty well established at this point that Goku will do stupid shit for the sake of a good fight, I can't help but get annoyed whenever it happens. This time, he's teaching his opponents to get stronger while in the middle of a tournament that's supposed to decide the fate of his entire universe. On top of that, he briefly turns SSJ3, which is already a huge stamina drain, while trying to recover stamina in the first place.

Eh, I didn't think Goku was particularly egregious this episode. Though his opponent was improving while they fought, I think it was also implied that he was improving as well. Also, the turning SS3 thing might have also been a little bit out of necessity, as he transformed in order to block there attacks.

I honestly don't see how Goku can be improving from this. Caulifla is leagues below him in terms of power, so it's not like he has to go all out to fight her. Recovering stamina by fighting doesn't make sense either, even by Dragon Ball's twisted logic.

[JazzMazz]

Even though it's been pretty well established at this point that Goku will do stupid shit for the sake of a good fight, I can't help but get annoyed whenever it happens. This time, he's teaching his opponents to get stronger while in the middle of a tournament that's supposed to decide the fate of his entire universe. On top of that, he briefly turns SSJ3, which is already a huge stamina drain, while trying to recover stamina in the first place.

Eh, I didn't think Goku was particularly egregious this episode. Though his opponent was improving while they fought, I think it was also implied that he was improving as well. Also, the turning SS3 thing might have also been a little bit out of necessity, as he transformed in order to block there attacks.

I honestly don't see how Goku can be improving from this. Caulifla is leagues below him in terms of power, so it's not like he has to go all out to fight her. Recovering stamina by fighting doesn't make sense either, even by Dragon Ball's twisted logic.

His not improving strength wise. His improving his fighting instincts sense he can't rely on pure power to win due to losing his stamina. You don't need to be at full power to be able to improve your fighting instincts, you only really need to cornered in some respect. Thats generally what I'm getting from the dialogue.[spoiler][/spoiler]