"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[RedHeat]

You've been busy defending Caulifla lately, haven't you? In any case, the essence of my post was actually very close to what Whis said about Caulifla's fighting style in early episode 113 (before she improved). That was what I was trying to get at, though I know a blow to the mouth isn't the best example.

Most of the "defending Caulifla" has mostly been people misusing Mary Sue, people being trigged by her getting certain transformations, and over-exaggerating of her negative traits. If this was any other character, I would make the same complaints. It also doesn't help that it seems Cali's mere existence just triggers people. Like in this episode, she didn't get Super Saiyan 3, got clown by base form Goku and called a street thug until she adaptive, showed real concern for her universe which is why she wanted Super Saiyan 3, and treated Goku with respect. Yet, people still managed to complain about her, mostly because she could still get Super Saiyan 3 and Goku daring to praise her. At this point, it comes off as petty.

Also, the blow to the mouth was before the episode aired and I was confused why punching in the mouth was considered dirty since in a real world tournament, punching in the vital areas (groin, kidney, liver) is the only real 'dirty' move you can pull. Which Cali kind of did since it looked like Cali decked Goku in the kidney in one shot.

You don't get it. The "a" does not play a role and if you would have actually read my post you would have understood it. "legendary Super Saiyan" and "Legendary Super Saiyan" for Kale and Broly both have the same words. Densetsu no Suupa Saiyajin, whether she is "a legendary", "the legendary" or "a Legendary SSJ" or "the Legendary". The words for the form are the same and thus it is absolutely fitting to say "well, she is called the same thing as Broly" with Legendary as part of the title as well as the adjective seperate from the title is not the only possibility. That's the thing. The capitalization hardly matters because the edge blurs because of the hommage and the fact that it is the same usage of words, "a" or not. And you also contradicted yourself with your whole capitalization if you read your last two posts.

The capitalization was a mistake on my part. But like I said, the NEP is probably a nod to Broly, but not a indication of her form's name or what it is. Especially when U6 didn't have a legend about a Super Saiyan.

i don't see the point to the defending, man. people will still hate these characters and whether you find it dumb or not, its not going away.


plus that goku line saying she might go beyond 3 even if she won't raises concern.

Why have an opinion at all, right?

[Luso Saiyan]

I don't see the problem with Caulifla. I don't mind the character at all and in terms of attitude she makes a nice counter part to Cabba. It's only a pity that's she's 'tied' to Kale, a character that (just like the one she's based on) I can't stand at all.

[JazzMazz]

Thats the thing, Cabba had at least one good defining episode thus far, Kale hasn't really had any good episodes about her character alone, since Caulifla pretty much always steals the show because she has the dominant personality and comes out on top even in episode about Kale.

I'm saying even though there have a been clear attempts to characterize her, the episode that we've gotten for her thus far really didn't focus on her enough to make her endearing(namely because Caulifla has such a strong presence). Not to mention she is a character that doesn't really have all that much going for her besides the fact she is basically Broly.

I think its also worth noting that I like how this tournament has at least made attempts at characterising the universe 6 fighters(some of them at least). Hit, the solitary assassin, learned to rely on others as his strength isn't always going to be enough. Cabba learned to carry himself with pride no matter how severe the situation instead of having a defeatist attitude. Caulifla mellowed out and became more humble as more and more pressure was placed upon her to get stronger and Kale broke overcame her weaker nature to help her mentor. Though not all the characterization has been well executed, I think its at least cool to know they tried doing something with these characters, its something that I appreciate greatly, even if it is fairly shallow.

I do agree. Kale kind of have the Goten problem where he comes off as the other half of Trunks instead of his own character. I think I just like Kale because she started as a Broly clone, but then got development that Broly never got in his twenty plus years of existence. So I guess, low standards on my part, lol.

She did get development in that she can watched Cali fight Goku and not turned into a jealous girl friend. She was happy to see her sis having fun and was all but jumping for joy that she could fight by Cali's side. I'm a sucker, but I just found that entire scene cute. She was also willing to help Hit in 111 and followed Hit's final orders without any hesitation. A big change from before.

And, most of the character in Dragon Ball are fairly shallow when they break them down.

I agree with you, I just think her having her own solo episode like Cabba did would be a really good way of having her stand on her own without Caulifla.

Hopefully thats something they do next episode.

Also, though a lot of the characters are fairly shallow in Dragonball, its still nice see character outside the main cast being given some character growth(arguable more character growth than the actual main cast).

[HeroR]

I agree with you, I just think her having her own solo episode like Cabba did would be a really good way of having her stand on her own without Caulifla.

Hopefully thats something they do next episode.

Also, though a lot of the characters are fairly shallow in Dragonball, its still nice see character outside the main cast being given some character growth(arguable more character growth than the actual main cast).

I would argued that Hit got better development in his short time compared to most of the main cast. It's very subtile, but it's extremely well-done and it's quite different from what usually get in Dragon Ball.

[JazzMazz]

I agree with you, I just think her having her own solo episode like Cabba did would be a really good way of having her stand on her own without Caulifla.

Hopefully thats something they do next episode.

Also, though a lot of the characters are fairly shallow in Dragonball, its still nice see character outside the main cast being given some character growth(arguable more character growth than the actual main cast).

I would argued that Hit got better development in his short time compared to most of the main cast. It's very subtile, but it's extremely well-done and it's quite different from what usually get in Dragon Ball.

Yeah, though Hit doesn't have the most bombastic personality, he definitely changed a lot as a character from when he first stepped into the ring with Goku.

[Noah]

Super Saiyan Blue was also called "Legendary Super Saiyan" once, this term gets thrown around a lot for it to mean anything.

A lot = twice in this series, right? That one you mentioned was Vegeta mocking Freeza, cause he always feared the legend.

I mean, the form has Broly's characteristic look, moves, and green ki and they're none too subtle with the references so I'm perplexed that people are surprised or bothered that it's the same form.

Exactly. It doesn't really matter how other medias like to call the transformation, it's aesthetic similar to Broly one, so LSSJ is not incorrect at all. What it matters is how the anime calls that form.

[HeroR]

I agree with you, I just think her having her own solo episode like Cabba did would be a really good way of having her stand on her own without Caulifla.

Hopefully thats something they do next episode.

Also, though a lot of the characters are fairly shallow in Dragonball, its still nice see character outside the main cast being given some character growth(arguable more character growth than the actual main cast).

I would argued that Hit got better development in his short time compared to most of the main cast. It's very subtile, but it's extremely well-done and it's quite different from what usually get in Dragon Ball.

Yeah, though Hit doesn't have the most bombastic personality, he definitely changed a lot as a character from when he first stepped into the ring with Goku.

I think that what standout for me. He started as the typical aloof, serious, badass like Tien, Piccolo to an extent, and even Pikkon. However, he subtile changed makes his standout from the people I named.

[TBMx]

"Misused of Sue" is what you're doing by arguing that he's not. He's fighting a Super Saiyan 2 successfully in BASE and recovering while doing it. See a character who wasn't a Mary Sue would rest offscreen instead of screwing the rules of the setting in order to keep hogging it.

Because people who misused literature terms to make their complaint sound more valid is a pet peeve of mines. Goku doesn't fit the definition of a Black Hole Sue, plain and simple. Also, it's actually a bad thing to sit down and rest after a big work out. It's best to keep moving and slow your pace.

Learn the definition of Mary Sue and Black Hole Sue before you throw the word around.

Seeing how I've been writing for over a decade I think I know the definition thanks.

Character who hogs the spotlight constantly and warps the rules of the setting and anally fists continuity at a whim to allow it is a Black Hole Sue. They couldn't even be bothered to include a B plot or even drop in on any other character. BASE Goku fighting successfully against SS2 Caulifla and actually GAINING energy from it is even more preposterous than Goku being healed with a kamehameha in Dragonball Evolution.

[MaskedRider]

Trunks....Legendary Super Saiyan - Dragon Ball Super Ep 61 (RAW)

[HeroR]

Seeing how I've been writing for over a decade I think I know the definition thanks.

Character who hogs the spotlight constantly and warps the rules of the setting and anally fists continuity at a whim to allow it is a Black Hole Sue. They couldn't even be bothered to include a B plot or even drop in on any other character. BASE Goku fighting successfully against SS2 Caulifla and actually GAINING energy from it is even more preposterous than Goku being healed with a kamehameha in Dragonball Evolution.

I don't think you do.

Black Hole Sue is a character how unnecessarily hogs the spotlight or story while bending and changing reality to suite them, not just someone who takes a lot of spotlight. Since Goku is the main character, him having more spotlight than most is expected, especially since we did have two episodes where he wasn't even the primary focused. Them not having a B plot doesn't make any character a Black Hole Sue.

Goku fought in base, but he eventually had to go Super Saiyan 2 as Cali got better and again, getting stamina back from an activity after doing a heavy activity while tired is something that happened in the real world and is something I personally experience. So Goku isn't bending reality. Yes, it's exaggerated, just like most things in Dragon Ball.

You not liking a certain character getting a lot of spotlight isn't how someone becomes a Sue or a Black Hole Sue.

[TBMx]

Seeing how I've been writing for over a decade I think I know the definition thanks.

Character who hogs the spotlight constantly and warps the rules of the setting and anally fists continuity at a whim to allow it is a Black Hole Sue. They couldn't even be bothered to include a B plot or even drop in on any other character. BASE Goku fighting successfully against SS2 Caulifla and actually GAINING energy from it is even more preposterous than Goku being healed with a kamehameha in Dragonball Evolution.

I don't think you do.

Black Hole Sue is a character how unnecessarily hogs the spotlight or story while bending and changing reality to suite them, not just someone who takes a lot of spotlight. Since Goku is the main character, him having more spotlight than most is expected, especially since we did have two episodes where he wasn't even the primary focused. Them not having a B plot doesn't make any character a Black Hole Sue.

Goku fought in base, but he eventually had to go Super Saiyan 2 as Cali got better and again, getting stamina back from an activity after doing a heavy activity while tired is something that happened in the real world and is something I personally experience. So Goku isn't bending reality. Yes, it's exaggerated, just like most things in Dragon Ball.

You not liking a certain character getting a lot of spotlight isn't how someone becomes a Sue or a Black Hole Sue.

As I just said, Goku hogs spotlight beyond even what a main character should and unecessarily warps reality to suit him.

First Super establishes that Goku's body had gone soft from inactivity and that bullets can hurt him. They establish that Blue is stamina draining. Then all of a sudden he pulls Kaioken Blue x20 repeatedly.

Then he attains then improves upon Ultra Instinct while he's fighting, something millions of years old gods still haven't mastered.

Now his base can take on a Super Saiyan 2...apparently.

Then fighting actually heals him. For the first time ever in the history of dragonball. Cos who cares about continuity or logic. Any excuse to have Goku still be active. Of course this only applies to Goku. Characters like Caulifla and Kale still had to rest. They couldn't just fight their way back to recovery.

Cos story doesn't matter anyway. Only Goku matters. And that is a black hole Sue. The. End.

[perucho1990]

From What I saw in the episode, Goku is being used to put over the girls, in case we get Planet Sadala soon, with the U6 saiyans as protagonists or we get a new series featuring them?

[HeroR]

As I just said, Goku hogs spotlight beyond even what a main character should and unecessarily warps reality to suit him.

First Super establishes that Goku's body had gone soft from inactivity and that bullets can hurt him. They establish that Blue is stamina draining. Then all of a sudden he pulls Kaioken Blue x20 repeatedly.

Then he attains then improves upon Ultra Instinct while he's fighting, something millions of years old gods still haven't mastered.

Now his base can take on a Super Saiyan 2...apparently.

Then fighting actually heals him. For the first time ever in the history of dragonball. Cos who cares about continuity or logic. Any excuse to have Goku still be active. Of course this only applies to Goku. Characters like Caulifla and Kale still had to rest. They couldn't just fight their way back to recovery.

Cos story doesn't matter anyway. Only Goku matters. And that is a black hole Sue. The. End.

'Hogging spotlight' does automatically make one a Black Hole Sue, especially when the character happens to be the main character who usually get a lot of focus. And 'beyond even what a main character' is really subjective, especially when I can named never other anime where the main character is always in the episode or manga chapter and get focused to some extent. And I have already explained how Goku didn't warp reality, whether you believed the explanation or not.

Huh? He used Kaioken x20 a couple of times against Jiren out of desperation and actually nearly killed himself the last time. What is this about repeatedly? Goku also said out of shape or rusty, but it was never stated that he actually got physically weaker.

When did he improved on UI? He was only getting better as he used it. It's the same thing Goku did with Super Saiyan God in the Battle of Gods Saga. Heck, Uub in EOZ did this. And Goku haven't mastered it himself since he lost the form not even a minute after getting it.

Skill and even then, Goku had to eventually go Super Saiyan 2 to match Cali. So I am not sure why you're so hung up on Goku using his skill to not go Super Saiyan until he had to. It's no different than Roshi vs. Genos or heck, Piccolo vs. Frost.

Goku isn't 'healing' in the way you're thinking. He's regaining his stamina. Also, Kale actually lost consciousness in 101, so it wasn't like she could walked off her exhausting. And it wouldn't be the first time in Dragon Ball this happened since Goku was exhausted to the point of collapsing on Namek and then he suddenly got his stamina back when he first went Super Saiyan.

Honestly, your whole post reads like bitter salt. You can not like something fine, but stop abusing the world Sue.

[SansrivaaL]

From What I saw in the episode, Goku is being used to put over the girls, in case we get Planet Sadala soon, with the U6 saiyans as protagonists or we get a new series featuring them?

Far from it, based on what I saw its Toei giving them their last hurrah since Kafla will be taking over them for the rest of the tournament, unless those potara's go haywire again for some plot BS reasons.

[GuanYu]

kefla and fuwa potara earring is deference design

[SirTorra]

kefla and fuwa potara earring is deference design

I really can't stand how they draw the u6 saiyans eyes. Wish they drew them like in Z.

[Kanassa]

[spoiler]kefla and fuwa potara earring is deference design

[/spoiler]

Yeah, I was gonna ask if they were different.

I wonder, were Gowasu's the same design as Shin's earrings? Wonder if the potara earrings that can make people fuse is only a thing for a few universe's kais.

[Sandubadear]

kefla and fuwa potara earring is deference design

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Not in this episode though.

[Brettjr25]

I don't think you do.

Black Hole Sue is a character how unnecessarily hogs the spotlight or story while bending and changing reality to suite them, not just someone who takes a lot of spotlight. Since Goku is the main character, him having more spotlight than most is expected, especially since we did have two episodes where he wasn't even the primary focused. Them not having a B plot doesn't make any character a Black Hole Sue.

Uhhhh....I think what you said is Goku spot on especially in this arc. I honestly cantsee how you can say Goku isnt one after giving a spot on definition of Goku. Isnt this the tournament where everyone on the forum is joking about how if you arent fighting Goku you have to take a ticket and chill until its your turn? Lets not even talk about all the things Goku did that should of killed him or hurt him at least but somehow made him stronger. But its your life bro, believe what you want.

[HeroR]

Uhhhh....I think what you said is Goku spot on especially in this arc. I honestly cantsee how you can say Goku isnt one after giving a spot on definition of Goku. Isnt this the tournament where everyone on the forum is joking about how if you arent fighting Goku you have to take a ticket and chill until its your turn? Lets not even talk about all the things Goku did that should of killed him or hurt him at least but somehow made him stronger. But its your life bro, believe what you want.

For one, Goku is the main character of the series and this story arc in particular is really his story since he's the one who asked for this tournament from Zen'o that started everything and even chose the team. The only way Goku could really fit a Black Hole Sue is if he primary focus in every episode, which he hasn't. He wasn't the primary focus of 97, 99, 102, 103, 105, 106, 107, 108, 111, and 112. He may have been in every episode doing something, but that doesn't mean he stole focus from another character. The closest he came was 104. In this episode in particularly, Cali and Kale came for Goku. He was busy before getting knocked around by robots. It's really no different than Future Trunks being in every episode in his own saga.

Also, I am not sure about all the things Goku did that should of killed him or hurt him at least but somehow made him stronger. Especially since this is standard fair for most characters in Dragon Ball.

It isn't me "believe what you want". Goku doesn't fit the definition of a Sue unless you're really loose with it.