Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

We saw Berserk fight Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Goku got overwhelmed and went Blue. The she walked through the Kamehameha. Even if we assumed Goku was holding back, Berserk would still be above Super Saiyan 2.

He did but the preview for the next episode shows Super Saiyan 2 Goku fighting against Super Saiyan Berserk Kale again but this time he doesn't appear to be nearly as overwhelmed seeing as he sends her flying back with a blast. Kale still needs to fight alongside Caulifla and that clearly isn't enough either if they have to fuse. Goku may transform further or he may not but the next episode could overwrite that old one.

We see Goku being pushed, firing a blast, and seems Kale goes into her control form. When she is fighting with Cali again she's clearly not in her Berserk form.

[Bullza]

We see Goku being pushed, firing a blast, and seems Kale goes into her control form. When she is fighting with Cali again she's clearly not in her Berserk form.

Yeah but the preview is implying that's supposed to be Kale after gaining control of that power. So she'd have that power without being all big and bulky.

[Marlowe89]

Welp, it looks like PerhapsTheOtherOne has been vindicated by this particular instance at least -- this episode actually was a genuine occurrence of "skill" almost completely overriding "power", confirmed by the dialogue itself.

It still doesn't change my personal scaling at all, and I certainly don't believe this was necessarily the case in some of the other episodes we've all hotly debated on, but I suppose it's something to keep in mind for Super going forward.

[HeroR]

We see Goku being pushed, firing a blast, and seems Kale goes into her control form. When she is fighting with Cali again she's clearly not in her Berserk form.

Yeah but the preview is implying that's supposed to be Kale after gaining control of that power. So she'd have that power without being all big and bulky.

Previews also implied Cali was getting Super Saiyan 3. Point is, NEP can be misleading.

[dragon boss z]

Welp, it looks like PerhapsTheOtherOne has been vindicated by this particular instance at least -- this episode actually was a genuine occurrence of "skill" almost completely overriding "power", confirmed by the dialogue itself.

It still doesn't change my personal scaling at all, and I certainly don't believe this was necessarily the case in some of the other episodes we've all hotly debated on, but I suppose it's something to keep in mind for Super going forward.

The dialog also implied all ssj2 are around the same level and that no base saiyan should be able to beat a ssj without skill, which doesn't make much sense.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Welp, it looks like PerhapsTheOtherOne has been vindicated by this particular instance at least -- this episode actually was a genuine occurrence of "skill" almost completely overriding "power", confirmed by the dialogue itself.

It still doesn't change my personal scaling at all, and I certainly don't believe this was necessarily the case in some of the other episodes we've all hotly debated on, but I suppose it's something to keep in mind for Super going forward.

The dialog also implied all ssj2 are around the same level and that no base saiyan should be able to beat a ssj without skill, which doesn't make much sense.

No, no it did not. Champa was just saying that Caulifla should've been doing better because she was a Super Saiyan and Goku wasn't, and the context is that because they were even in most forms, Caulifla should've easily defeated Goku when she transformed. He doesn't literally mean that no base Saiyan could ever beat any Super Saiyan, he just means that Caulifla turned SS and became stronger than Goku, but she still wasn't gaining the upper hand.

[HeroR]

The dialog also implied all ssj2 are around the same level and that no base saiyan should be able to beat a ssj without skill, which doesn't make much sense.

No, no it did not. Champa was just saying that Caulifla should've been doing better because she was a Super Saiyan and Goku wasn't, and the context is that because they were even in most forms, Caulifla should've easily defeated Goku when she transformed. He doesn't literally mean that no base Saiyan could ever beat any Super Saiyan, he just means that Caulifla turned SS and became stronger than Goku, but she still wasn't gaining the upper hand.[/quote]

Basically, Roshi vs. Genos, except Cali isn't as thickheaded as Genos who kept doing the same thing and expecting different results because of his growth.

[dragon boss z]

Welp, it looks like PerhapsTheOtherOne has been vindicated by this particular instance at least -- this episode actually was a genuine occurrence of "skill" almost completely overriding "power", confirmed by the dialogue itself.

It still doesn't change my personal scaling at all, and I certainly don't believe this was necessarily the case in some of the other episodes we've all hotly debated on, but I suppose it's something to keep in mind for Super going forward.

The dialog also implied all ssj2 are around the same level and that no base saiyan should be able to beat a ssj without skill, which doesn't make much sense.

No, no it did not. Champa was just saying that Caulifla should've been doing better because she was a Super Saiyan and Goku wasn't,

That is literally the definition of implying ssj should be above base.

and the context is that because they were even in most forms, Caulifla should've easily defeated Goku when she transformed.

There is no reason for them to be even in any form. Goku has had years of training and god training and absorbed god power. Base copy Vegeta beat ssj3 Gotenks, base Goku cut Hit's face, base Goku fought final form Frieza, base Goku fought Beerus in the Monaka costume and made Beerus angry and actually fight back. None of those things I just mentioned base Caulifla could come even close to replicating.

He doesn't literally mean that no base Saiyan could ever beat any Super Saiyan, he just means that Caulifla turned SS and became stronger than Goku, but she still wasn't gaining the upper hand.

He didn't say "her ssj feels stronger than his base it should be winning" he just said, "she is a ssj, that should be above base saiyains".

And that wasn't the only line I was talking about. Krillin, who should be an expert on saiyan power said "so this is a fight between two ssj". That is implying that all ssj2 are around the same level, because that line would make no sense if their ssj forms were lets say above SSG level now.

I'm not saying that all ssj2 forms are the same level, I'm just saying that's what a couple of lines implied could be the case. Not all lines should be taken at face value. Base Goku is weaker than ssj2 Caulifla, but not by that much and ssj2 Goku is stronger than her. That's all we can really get from the episode.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is a big issue I have with folks' analyses around here. There are times where things should be taken literally, but other times you can't do that.

It's a distinction people should make.

All of the Saiyans in this tournament are around the same strength in comparable forms, so of course Super Saiyans and base forms would be referenced as a whole, because that's exactly what the most direct comparison would be. And OF COURSE this is a serious fight between SS2s, because that's never happened except for between Goku and Majin Vegeta, and that was years ago in-universe and out-of-universe.

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing HOW people can extrapolate conclusions like this. What's easier to fit into dialogue and sounds less ridiculous to the lay viewer?

"Caulifla, without transforming, is around the strength of Goku and has multiplied her power several fold with SS2, so why isn't she soundly defeating Goku?!"

OR

"Why isn't Caulifla winning?! A Super Saiyan is supposed to be stronger than a normal Saiyan!!"

The way that "[X] Form Level" is extrapolated is simply ridiculous, because the exact same thing could be applied to past examples, like how SS Goku on Namek is at SS level, so Cell is also only at SS level when he fights SS Goku. That's an overgeneralization I find to be completely irrational.

I apologize if I'm ranting and taking this too personally, but seeing this mentality just irks me so very much. About as much as people saying that Caulifla is a Mary Sue.

[dragon boss z]

This is a big issue I have with folks' analyses around here. There are times where things should be taken literally, but other times you can't do that.

It's a distinction people should make.

All of the Saiyans in this tournament are around the same strength in comparable forms, so of course Super Saiyans and base forms would be referenced as a whole, because that's exactly what the most direct comparison would be. And OF COURSE this is a serious fight between SS2s, because that's never happened except for between Goku and Majin Vegeta, and that was years ago in-universe and out-of-universe.

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing HOW people can extrapolate conclusions like this. What's easier to fit into dialogue and sounds less ridiculous to the lay viewer?

"Caulifla, without transforming, is around the strength of Goku and has multiplied her power several fold with SS2, so why isn't she soundly defeating Goku?!"

OR

"Why isn't Caulifla winning?! A Super Saiyan is supposed to be stronger than a normal Saiyan!!"

The way that "[X] Form Level" is extrapolated is simply ridiculous, because the exact same thing could be applied to past examples, like how SS Goku on Namek is at SS level, so Cell is also only at SS level when he fights SS Goku. That's an overgeneralization I find to be completely irrational.

I apologize if I'm ranting and taking this too personally, but seeing this mentality just irks me so very much. About as much as people saying that Caulifla is a Mary Sue.

I was just using those lines as a point that not all lines should be taken literally and I made that extremely clear. Goku was beating Caulifla in base because he was more skilled, but that doesn't take away the fact that his base had to be at least close to her level to even do that in the first place. And not all saiyans are the same in every form, as we know base Goku is roughly equal to final form Frieza, who would completely destroy the base saiyans of universe 6.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is a big issue I have with folks' analyses around here. There are times where things should be taken literally, but other times you can't do that.

It's a distinction people should make.

All of the Saiyans in this tournament are around the same strength in comparable forms, so of course Super Saiyans and base forms would be referenced as a whole, because that's exactly what the most direct comparison would be. And OF COURSE this is a serious fight between SS2s, because that's never happened except for between Goku and Majin Vegeta, and that was years ago in-universe and out-of-universe.

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing HOW people can extrapolate conclusions like this. What's easier to fit into dialogue and sounds less ridiculous to the lay viewer?

"Caulifla, without transforming, is around the strength of Goku and has multiplied her power several fold with SS2, so why isn't she soundly defeating Goku?!"

OR

"Why isn't Caulifla winning?! A Super Saiyan is supposed to be stronger than a normal Saiyan!!"

The way that "[X] Form Level" is extrapolated is simply ridiculous, because the exact same thing could be applied to past examples, like how SS Goku on Namek is at SS level, so Cell is also only at SS level when he fights SS Goku. That's an overgeneralization I find to be completely irrational.

I apologize if I'm ranting and taking this too personally, but seeing this mentality just irks me so very much. About as much as people saying that Caulifla is a Mary Sue.

I was just using those lines as a point that not all lines should be taken literally and I made that extremely clear. Goku was beating Caulifla in base because he was more skilled, but that doesn't take away the fact that his base had to be at least close to her level to even do that in the first place. And not all saiyans are the same in every form, as we know base Goku is roughly equal to final form Frieza, who would completely destroy the base saiyans of universe 6.

Yeah........ No.

We later see that the two power up as SS2s and are fighting at relatively even levels again. What's ridiculous is people trying to say that power levels HAVE TO BE close to make the differences in skill work. Goku doesn't need to only be a few times off of SS2 Caulifla to do as well as he did in base form.

That's a headcanon far too many people have come to accept as the rule of thumb. I wish people would just STOP with this. What we've been presented with is that the Saiyans in this tournament are all relatively comparable in equivalent forms. So, when Goku does so well in base form against SS2 Caulifla, it's because of skill as specifically stated, not because he's somehow only a few times off of her form in base.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah........ No.

We later see that the two power up as SS2s and are fighting at relatively even levels again.

Goku was holding back, he even mentioned he was.

What's ridiculous is people trying to say that power levels HAVE TO BE close to make the differences in skill work. Goku doesn't need to only be a few times off of SS2 Caulifla to do as well as he did in base form.

Is that so? Because last time I checked just a difference of a couple times makes it so you can't even phase your opponent.

That's a headcanon far too many people have come to accept as the rule of thumb. I wish people would just STOP with this.

So the above scenes are head canon?

What we've been presented with is that the Saiyans in this tournament are all relatively comparable in equivalent forms. So, when Goku does so well in base form against SS2 Caulifla, it's because of skill as specifically stated, not because he's somehow only a few times off of her form in base.

Ssj Cabba would of lost to Monna, and Vegeta blasted her away in base form. Both base Vegeta and base Goku fougth well against Ribrainne, something the base universe 6 saiyans most likely can't do. You can't judge universe 6 saiyans strength against universe 7 saiyans because Goku and Vegeta hold back against them every time. You have to compare them to other characters. Ssj Caulifla had more trouble with Nappapa than final form Frieza did, and that was her as a ssj. She probably couldn't even beat Nappapa in base and Goku and Vegeta could of no problem. Same thing with Monnna which I explained above, and you have Cabba standing no chance in base against Frieza, yet Goku's base is equal to Frieza.

[Bullza]

yet Goku's base is equal to Frieza.

I wouldn't really starting that's true. For one thing it was implied at the time that Frieza was stronger and with what we know now he would have to be.

Even the current Base Goku who should be multiple times as strong as he was in the Resurrection F saga probably isn't as strong as Frieza whose strength would be unchanged.

[dragon boss z]

I wouldn't really starting that's true. For one thing it was implied at the time that Frieza was stronger and with what we know now he would have to be.

Are you talking about during the RoF arc? Because I do think Frieza could power up his final form above base Goku, but his resting final form strength is equal to base form Goku.

Even the current Base Goku who should be multiple times as strong as he was in the Resurrection F saga probably isn't as strong as Frieza whose strength would be unchanged.

This is how I see it
suppressed final form Frieza<=base Goku<100% final form Frieza<ssj Goku

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There are explicitly different mentalities when it comes to writing how combat works now.

We see that only exceptionally high power levels, like Jiren compared to Goku or Golden Freeza to SS2 Cabba, allow someone to "tank" a hit nowadays. Being taken off-guard is a death sentence now, as Goku continues to demonstrate following the events of Resurrection of F through explicit dialogue. Remember when being off-guard used to not matter because of your power level? Well, look how well that rule has stayed around with what I've mentioned.

It's headcanon NOW that power levels make someone entirely untouchable on their own. They CAN, but they must be exceptionally high. Notice that Jiren bothered to even block SSG Goku's hits, even though he only needed one finger and was barely using even a small fraction of his power.

Hit managed to actually do something to Jiren thanks to his skill and special abilities, despite being many times weaker. And I mean many MANY times weaker.

This is SUPER, NOT Z. The old rules need not necessarily apply anymore. As my saying...... POWER =/= PERFORMANCE.

We have to remember that a lot of what Freeza did was offscreen. We have no idea how he handled such opponents, but his elimination of Jimeze gives us some insight: he's actually a very good fighter, now.

This most recent episode also explicitly rectifies many other fights that seem to have odd power level disparities in this tournament, as we see that good strategy and skill can keep weaker opponents in the fight against stronger ones.

[ekrolo2]

This is SUPER, NOT Z. The old rules need not necessarily apply anymore. As my saying...... POWER =/= PERFORMANCE.

We have to remember that a lot of what Freeza did was offscreen. We have no idea how he handled such opponents, but his elimination of Jimeze gives us some insight: he's actually a very good fighter, now.

This most recent episode also explicitly rectifies many other fights that seem to have odd power level disparities in this tournament, as we see that good strategy and skill can keep weaker opponents in the fight against stronger ones.

Super is a sequel to Z, meaning if you're going to change the how and why of the fighting mechanics, you need a good reason for it other then just because.

If Dragon Ball as a whole property was a lot fresher, not even 10 years old, you could probably get away with a sudden shift with a lot less blowback. But 20+ years is a long time man. Even if Super's writing was top tier stuff, and I do mean the absolute of top tiers, you'd still fail to sell a lot of people on it regardless.

Conceptually, I'm fine with the idea of this new direction, it just doesn't feel organic at all.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is SUPER, NOT Z. The old rules need not necessarily apply anymore. As my saying...... POWER =/= PERFORMANCE.

We have to remember that a lot of what Freeza did was offscreen. We have no idea how he handled such opponents, but his elimination of Jimeze gives us some insight: he's actually a very good fighter, now.

This most recent episode also explicitly rectifies many other fights that seem to have odd power level disparities in this tournament, as we see that good strategy and skill can keep weaker opponents in the fight against stronger ones.

Super is a sequel to Z, meaning if you're going to change the how and why of the fighting mechanics, you need a good reason for it other then just because.

If Dragon Ball as a whole property was a lot fresher, not even 10 years old, you could probably get away with a sudden shift with a lot less blowback. But 20+ years is a long time man. Even if Super's writing was top tier stuff, and I do mean the absolute of top tiers, you'd still fail to sell a lot of people on it regardless.

Conceptually, I'm fine with the idea of this new direction, it just doesn't feel organic at all.

Regardless of quality or flow, I just wish people would at least take it as is first and foremost, rather than try and fit the new stuff into the old mold.

It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Whether or not we like it, we're stuck with the square peg, so we might as well at least put in in the square hole so that everything fits together better.

[ekrolo2]

Regardless of quality or flow, I just wish people would at least take it as is first and foremost, rather than try and fit the new stuff into the old mold.

It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Whether or not we like it, we're stuck with the square peg, so we might as well at least put in in the square hole so that everything fits together better.

I just explained the why: it's a sequel that changes some firmly established tropes without a good reason behind it. It's not rocket science. If Halo ended with 3, then came back 20 years later and the sequel to 3 was a fighting game, people would understandably go WTF even if you made a good reason for it.

Super doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's by design made to fit into the round hole of Z but doesn't and not for any good reason just because. There's no even real in-universe reason for it besides this is just how things work. Thor Ragnarok is a writing mess but even it understands that if you're gonna break the old for the new, you should probably ACTUALLY break it instead of ignoring the old, forcing the new and asking everyone to ignore the discrepancy.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Regardless of quality or flow, I just wish people would at least take it as is first and foremost, rather than try and fit the new stuff into the old mold.

It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Whether or not we like it, we're stuck with the square peg, so we might as well at least put in in the square hole so that everything fits together better.

I just explained the why: it's a sequel that changes some firmly established tropes without a good reason behind it. It's not rocket science. If Halo ended with 3, then came back 20 years later and the sequel to 3 was a fighting game, people would understandably go WTF even if you made a good reason for it.

Super doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's by design made to fit into the round hole of Z but doesn't and not for any good reason just because. There's no even real in-universe reason for it besides this is just how things work. Thor Ragnarok is a writing mess but even it understands that if you're gonna break the old for the new, you should probably ACTUALLY break it instead of ignoring the old, forcing the new and asking everyone to ignore the discrepancy.

Even still, blatantly ignoring that this is the way things are doesn't strengthen one's arguments.

Good debating etiquette is predicated on following the evidence and knowing when to use precedence, and when not to. For example, a legal battle on a case isn't always won by using the court standards of the old legal system, even if that's when it would've been the most applicable for the case that set the precedent. Sometimes, you need to set a new standard. Now's that time for this franchise where we need to set the standard for NOW, and not dwell on the past.

I don't care if it doesn't logically flow, or if it somehow ruins the franchise as a whole (which it doesn't, BTW). If people aren't gonna at least make the attempt, then there's no point in debating the current series as its own thing.

[Doctor.]

I mean, yes, it's stupid, it's dumb and it contradicts what was established earlier. But that's the way it is now.

Why are people arguing this, though? This isn't the correct thread for it. You either accept the numbskull logic and apply it in debates or you don't debate about fights involving Super characters.