"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[emperior]

I do think Caulifla and Kale are doomed(?) to Hit and Cabba status as characters that'll only reappear in filler episodes once/if this arc ever ends.

I think they'd be a part of a Planet Salad arc if we do get that arc in the future, but I can't see Caulifla abandoning the gang she leads for Uni 7. And Kale follows Caulifla so.


Unrelated, but man am I anxious for those 4 pages of dropped plot stuff in dbs manga volume four.

I agree with you. I think the two girls will appear in a Sadala arc, their character arc will be concluded in some way, and after that we will hardly see them again. I could see many of these awesome characters re-appearing in a possible "Rebellion arc" by helping Goku and co, if something like that ever happens. That would be a great closure for Super and for these new characters.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Lemmy, you mentioned in the other thread that Caulifla is being pushed down the fans throats but it was the same for Goten and Trunks in Z, hell they got more screen time in Z than Caulifla and Kale got in DBS.

They even got their own movie and OVA(Movie 11 and 2008 OVA).

And I love them both, heh. Puttin' out my bias upfront.

I'm conflicted on this point because, while it's definitely a fair comparison, Goten and Trunks feel to me like an organic extension of what came before. Obviously Trunks had to be there, since his future self was born in the previous arc; only Goten comes off as superfluous and unnecessary from a narrative standpoint, except to give Goku another son and Trunks someone to play with. I love this character, but he did kinda just come out of nowhere and has yet to really distinguish himself as something other than Trunks' best friend and half a fusion. The two of them were definitely built up as the next big thing, from both a story perspective and whatever marketing machine existed back then, which I suppose is part of what distresses me so much about DBS and its immovable Status Quo of doing nothing to expound upon their characters or their promising potential that the Boo arc seemed to be hinting at... although that may be due more to the irritating feature of Toriyama's writing style where he ditches characters on a whim than anything specific to DBS itself. I have no idea. The concept of Goten and Trunks still makes sense to me, though, bullshit powerups and all; they're offspring of super strong main characters who are written to advance the story in a particular direction (which at the time was, I suppose, a "next generation" thing that the subsequent series has since abandoned).

Caulifla and Kale, on the other hand, make no sense to me, because we already had Cabba to represent the "alternate universe saiyans" angle. For years all I ever heard was complaints about the oversaturation of saiyans in DragonBall, so it's weird to see DBS go in this direction. Even Cabba was kind of pushing it. But he made narrative sense in the first tournament; it's another universe, let's put a saiyan on the team. By comparison, in this arc, everything about the girls feels superfluous and invented to sell cards and toys, including the characters themselves; i.e., MOAR SAIYANS. Why not just stick with Cabba? I guess for me that's more a criticism of Toriyama than anything, since we can't expect that Toei invents important characters out of nowhere. (Although I wouldn't necessarily ignore the possibility that someone simply went to Toriyama and said 'female saiyans plz', either. He'd probably roll with it.) But the manner in which they're being advanced and accentuated above just about everyone and everything else new in what is supposed to be a multiverse tournament is terrible, and that feels suspiciously like a sleight of hand by Toei or the Dragon Room or whomever assists in fleshing out Toriyama's outline.

There are definitely some parallels to take notice of, narratively speaking; I see a few people deeming Caulifla the Son Goku of Universe 6, for example. So there are interesting things to find for people who want to look, fun stuff to chew on that quasi-justifies their existence. And I admit that any final verdict on these characters should be a long way off to begin with. But their status as an obvious marketing tool is just so blatant that I can't even begin to enjoy them. (To say nothing of Caulifla's obnoxious asshole personality, which I personally cannot stand at all.) It's almost as if the writing staff embellished on everything they could the moment Toriyama's draft hit the floor, as I assume it to be a rather broad outline that isn't heavy on specifics, and turned it to these characters' advantage. Female Super Saiyans! One of them's a Broli! Give them the most focus out of all the new characters in the tournament! Fight the main character; ZOMG even Goku likes them, so you should too! Forms, forms, forms up the ass! Caulifla might even go beyond Super Saiyan 3! Top it off with Fusion! And so on and so forth.

I'm not saying that Goten and Trunks didn't also go through this whole process, this thing where they were being put front and center and being made into merchandise and whatnot, because they did. But it didn't appear to be driven by marketing; it appeared to be driven by a crazy manga-ka with an affinity for gags. Goten and Trunks having SSj without trying is a gag; it's a wink and a nod to the audience. Fusion is a gag. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is a gag, his entire fight with Boo is a series of gags. And you can argue that it makes sense in-universe because of the mixed blood thing. Caulifla and Kale are neither gags nor halfbreeds; their lightning-fast acquisition of transformations and power is played straight, and we're supposed to believe that it's normal and not meant to give them forms for video games. Power inflation has always been a problem in this series, even before DBS, but they are shoving these girls out the door to get every form they can in as little time as possible; it just doesn't jive.

Well... that's my opinion, anyway. Anyone's mileage with specific characters will differ, and I obviously can't pretend to know what Toriyama is thinking. I'm making some broad assumptions here. But the whole thing just plays so shallow that it's what I feel.

[Noah]

They obviously wanted 100% focus on Goku vs Kale and Caulifla and it seems like that way in episode 114 as well and episode 115 will probably end up being the same.

So I guess we only will see Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta fights after these episodes?

[Kinokima]

They obviously wanted 100% focus on Goku vs Kale and Caulifla and it seems like that way in episode 114 as well and episode 115 will probably end up being the same.

So I guess we only will see Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta fights after these episodes?

If we see them at all. Just because a fight gets started doesn't mean it will finish.

[Kinokima]

Lemmy, you mentioned in the other thread that Caulifla is being pushed down the fans throats but it was the same for Goten and Trunks in Z, hell they got more screen time in Z than Caulifla and Kale got in DBS.

They even got their own movie and OVA(Movie 11 and 2008 OVA).

And I love them both, heh. Puttin' out my bias upfront.

I'm conflicted on this point because, while it's definitely a fair comparison, Goten and Trunks feel to me like an organic extension of what came before.

I absolutely love Trunks and Goten. I think they were great representations of powerful children who were still just children. Besides the very early episodes Gohan became a very mature child and never truly acted like a kid. That is what made Goten and Trunks special to me.

And I have to say that as a Vegeta fan of course I adore Kid Trunks. Sure we had Future Trunks (who I also adore of course) but the idea of Vegeta with a young child like Trunks is just a hell of a lot cuter. And how could I not love the idea that Goku and Vegeta's sons are best friends. I will agree that Trunks is the better developed of the two children. But I think that is partially because he is older and has the stronger personality. Goten is adorable but a bit of a follower. But I love that their relationship and how they act made me think of a real children at that age.

Of course they are older in Super. And while it's true they don't look it I think they do act a bit older in their nature (although still not as mature as Gohan was at that age). Anyways I don't really get the comparison with the new Saiyan characters. Those characters may be young adults or even teenagers but they definitely aren't kids or Goku and Vegeta's flesh and blood after all.

[namekiansaiyan]

They obviously wanted 100% focus on Goku vs Kale and Caulifla and it seems like that way in episode 114 as well and episode 115 will probably end up being the same.

So I guess we only will see Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta fights after these episodes?

If we see them at all. Just because a fight gets started doesn't mean it will finish.

I don't like that these 2 fights were started and now being ignored. I also don't like that they are happening now anyway when we have a lot of Universe 2 and 3 fighters still about who don't look like a challenge.

I do want these 2 fights to be interupted so they can go finish of Universe 2 and 3 before they fight again. It will be a bit crap if Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan win and then go against fighters weaker than their last ones.

[perucho1990]

And I love them both, heh. Puttin' out my bias upfront.

I'm conflicted on this point because, while it's definitely a fair comparison, Goten and Trunks feel to me like an organic extension of what came before. Obviously Trunks had to be there, since his future self was born in the previous arc; only Goten comes off as superfluous and unnecessary from a narrative standpoint, except to give Goku another son and Trunks someone to play with. I love this character, but he did kinda just come out of nowhere and has yet to really distinguish himself as something other than Trunks' best friend and half a fusion. The two of them were definitely built up as the next big thing, from both a story perspective and whatever marketing machine existed back then, which I suppose is part of what distresses me so much about DBS and its immovable Status Quo of doing nothing to expound upon their characters or their promising potential that the Boo arc seemed to be hinting at... although that may be due more to the irritating feature of Toriyama's writing style where he ditches characters on a whim than anything specific to DBS itself. I have no idea. The concept of Goten and Trunks still makes sense to me, though, bullshit powerups and all; they're offspring of super strong main characters who are written to advance the story in a particular direction (which at the time was, I suppose, a "next generation" thing that the subsequent series has since abandoned).

Caulifla and Kale, on the other hand, make no sense to me, because we already had Cabba to represent the "alternate universe saiyans" angle. For years all I ever heard was complaints about the oversaturation of saiyans in DragonBall, so it's weird to see DBS go in this direction. Even Cabba was kind of pushing it. But he made narrative sense in the first tournament; it's another universe, let's put a saiyan on the team. By comparison, in this arc, everything about the girls feels superfluous and invented to sell cards and toys, including the characters themselves; i.e., MOAR SAIYANS. Why not just stick with Cabba? I guess for me that's more a criticism of Toriyama than anything, since we can't expect that Toei invents important characters out of nowhere. (Although I wouldn't necessarily ignore the possibility that someone simply went to Toriyama and said 'female saiyans plz', either. He'd probably roll with it.) But the manner in which they're being advanced and accentuated above just about everyone and everything else new in what is supposed to be a multiverse tournament is terrible, and that feels suspiciously like a sleight of hand by Toei or the Dragon Room or whomever assists in fleshing out Toriyama's outline.

There are definitely some parallels to take notice of, narratively speaking; I see a few people deeming Caulifla the Son Goku of Universe 6, for example. So there are interesting things to find for people who want to look, fun stuff to chew on that quasi-justifies their existence. And I admit that any final verdict on these characters should be a long way off to begin with. But their status as an obvious marketing tool is just so blatant that I can't even begin to enjoy them. (To say nothing of Caulifla's obnoxious asshole personality, which I personally cannot stand at all.) It's almost as if the writing staff embellished on everything they could the moment Toriyama's draft hit the floor, as I assume it to be a rather broad outline that isn't heavy on specifics, and turned it to these characters' advantage. Female Super Saiyans! One of them's a Broli! Give them the most focus out of all the new characters in the tournament! Fight the main character; ZOMG even Goku likes them, so you should too! Forms, forms, forms up the ass! Caulifla might even go beyond Super Saiyan 3! Top it off with Fusion! And so on and so forth.

I'm not saying that Goten and Trunks didn't also go through this whole process, this thing where they were being put front and center and being made into merchandise and whatnot, because they did. But it didn't appear to be driven by marketing; it appeared to be driven by a crazy manga-ka with an affinity for gags. Goten and Trunks having SSj without trying is a gag; it's a wink and a nod to the audience. Fusion is a gag. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is a gag, his entire fight with Boo is a series of gags. And you can argue that it makes sense in-universe because of the mixed blood thing. Caulifla and Kale are neither gags nor halfbreeds; their lightning-fast acquisition of transformations and power is played straight, and we're supposed to believe that it's normal and not meant to give them forms for video games. Power inflation has always been a problem in this series, even before DBS, but they are shoving these girls out the door to get every form they can in as little time as possible; it just doesn't jive.

Well... that's my opinion, anyway. Anyone's mileage with specific characters will differ, and I obviously can't pretend to know what Toriyama is thinking. I'm making some broad assumptions here. But the whole thing just plays so shallow that it's what I feel.

My take is that Caulifla being that strong isnt bad, they established that she still has a long way to go before catching up to the Top Tiers. As for her personality goes, she behaves like the typical delinquent character, she is going to mature once something tragic somethings to her.

As for Kale goes, for me it was a big mistake making her a Broly clone, as an attempt to pander the Broly fans, notice that fans are starting to like her ever since she stopped being a Broly knockoff, she has potential in becoming a better character.

Goten and Trunks can still be relevant again, look at what the Poachers "training" did to 17, it might also give the boys a boost, back to relevance again. It would nice if they have the boys in the trip to Planet Sadala, and they interact with the girls, they could have scenes like idk...Goten and Caulifla spar and ends up with Caulifla on the ground due to Goten being skilled in martial arts

[Torturephile]

They obviously wanted 100% focus on Goku vs Kale and Caulifla and it seems like that way in episode 114 as well and episode 115 will probably end up being the same.

So I guess we only will see Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta fights after these episodes?

If we see them at all. Just because a fight gets started doesn't mean it will finish.

I bet episodes 116-119 go like this:

-Episode 166: "The Battle Intensifies! Kafla Powers Up to Berserker Super Saiyan 3 at Last!"
-Episode 117: "The Counter Attack! Vegetto vs. Kafla!" Vegetto appears for two minutes in UI SSJB Kaioken form just to be destroyed by BSSJ3 Kafla.
-Episode 118: "A Desperate Cry! Universes on the Brink of Extinction!" All other fights, which were unseen, are interrumpted and all fighters but Jiren get eliminated.
-Episode 119: "El Padre Grande and Fused Zen-Oh's Last Stand!" Jiren dies, then Kafla farts and everything in the multiuniverse is erased.

Super ends with Kafla floating in the pitch-black nothingness. EoZ is non-canon anymore.

[Kinokima]

Lol on that note does anyone know when we should get synopsis for ep 116 and beyond?

[Noah]

Super ends with Kafla floating in the pitch-black nothingness. EoZ is non-canon anymore.

Sure if you rip all the pages from Chapter 518 to 519 of the manga

[SansrivaaL]

So I guess we only will see Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta fights after these episodes?

If we see them at all. Just because a fight gets started doesn't mean it will finish.

I bet episodes 116-119 go like this:

-Episode 166: "The Battle Intensifies! Kafla Powers Up to Berserker Super Saiyan 3 at Last!"
-Episode 117: "The Counter Attack! Vegetto vs. Kafla!" Vegetto appears for two minutes in UI SSJB Kaioken form just to be destroyed by BSSJ3 Kafla.
-Episode 118: "A Desperate Cry! Universes on the Brink of Extinction!" All other fights, which were unseen, are interrumpted and all fighters but Jiren get eliminated.
-Episode 119: "El Padre Grande and Fused Zen-Oh's Last Stand!" Jiren dies, then Kafla farts and everything in the multiuniverse is erased.

Super ends with Kafla floating in the pitch-black nothingness. EoZ is non-canon anymore.

For a split second I actually thought this was legit, ep 118 "desperate cry" should be more like "Kafla makes her ass tingle and goes UIBSSJB, proceeds to whoop Vegetto's ass and made him cry"

[JulieYBM]

Caulifla and Kale acquire Super Saiyan easily just as Trunks and Goten did before them. I...don't see this being an issue. It's a premise. Let's stop paying the setting mind and go at the nitty-gritty, the characters' involvement in and dictating of the story. The grand narrative of the story is the Tournament of Power, a tournament that will decide the fate of eight universes, being fought between ten representatives of those eight universes. Kale and Caulifla are two small pieces in that giant bowl of M&Ms, but there's a big distinctive difference between them and Goten and Trunks. Caulifla and Kale are new characters, they're female Saiyans and they have bold personalities that you can play for drama and laughs. They represent genuine elements of their creator's personalities--perhaps most so Nagamine Tatsuya and the other staff. In the end, they can fulfill the needs of the merchandisers and the creative staff. Goten and Trunks apparently aren't--and I argue that that is quite right. Toriyama's made it pretty clear he just isn't interested in those characters and I see no reason to replace a production committee with a committee of a small fan group that cannot even support the creation of works specifically for their use.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

http://motto.daisuki.net/information/

Looks like Daisuki only streaming DBS in 480p now, R.I.P free DBS in HD

[BlueBasilisk]

Lol on that note does anyone know when we should get synopsis for ep 116 and beyond?

Should be sometime early next week, probably Tues/Wed but coud be earlier.

[Noah]

Caulifla and Kale acquire Super Saiyan easily just as Trunks and Goten did before them. I...don't see this being an issue.

It kinda is. Hybrids are stated to have more potential than full blooded ones since the Saiyan arc, so not a really good comparison with Caulifla and Kale that are Saiyans from another universe which probably had many battles and yet never achieved the transformation before, until Cabba told them about it.

[TheDipDap1234]

Lol on that note does anyone know when we should get synopsis for ep 116 and beyond?

They usually come out on the 5th or 6th of the month, so either this Sunday or Monday is my guess.

[BlueBasilisk]

http://motto.daisuki.net/information/

Looks like Daisuki only streaming DBS in 480p now, R.I.P free DBS in HD

That stinks! Daisuki's player is so much better than Crunchy's and isn't bogged down by 10 minutes of intrusive commercials.

[hardcorefakes]

Caulifla and Kale acquire Super Saiyan easily just as Trunks and Goten did before them. I...don't see this being an issue.

It kinda is. Hybrids are stated to have more potential than full blooded ones since the Saiyan arc, so not a really good comparison with Caulifla and Kale that are Saiyans from another universe which probably had many battles and yet never achieved the transformation before, until Cabba told them about it.

Shhhh.

Don't mention this. It's too logical.

[RedHeat]

Caulifla and Kale acquire Super Saiyan easily just as Trunks and Goten did before them. I...don't see this being an issue.

It kinda is. Hybrids are stated to have more potential than full blooded ones since the Saiyan arc, so not a really good comparison with Caulifla and Kale that are Saiyans from another universe which probably had many battles and yet never achieved the transformation before, until Cabba told them about it.

Sure, but base Caulifla is already stronger than most of characters before the Battle of Gods Arc. Their evolution means they'd have more potential than half-saiyans.

[alakazam^]

Caulifla and Kale acquire Super Saiyan easily just as Trunks and Goten did before them. I...don't see this being an issue.

It kinda is. Hybrids are stated to have more potential than full blooded ones since the Saiyan arc, so not a really good comparison with Caulifla and Kale that are Saiyans from another universe which probably had many battles and yet never achieved the transformation before, until Cabba told them about it.

Shhhh.

Don't mention this. It's too logical.

What's logical is that being from a different Universe means they can function differently. None of your bias matters in this case.