Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

[HeroR]

It was in one of the Daizenshuu 4. Here's the insert:

The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.


From Toriyama himself about Saiyan's tails:

What happened to Vegeta's tail after he was defeated on Earth?

The tail lets you get tremendous strength instantly by transforming into a great ape, but the risks are equally great-- you'll lose your strength if it's squeezed. Once you're as powerful as Vegeta and Goku, the tail just gets in the way. It is thought that the bodies of Saiyans, who are a fighting species, decided that their tails are unnecessary appendages.

"Super ultra prodigies" Holy shit.

Daizenshuu 4, got it. Thanks!

Reading this without context is hilarious.

[BWri]

Dont forget that mixed blood Saiyans are supposed to have more potential and easier to achieve transformations than pure blooded. This has been established already. So u cant compare Trunks and Goten with Caulifla.

Yeah, there is that too. Good point. Was that stated or implied? Sometimes it seems like Super has retconned the potential of half-breeds that was established in Z. Goten and Trunks are pretty low on the totem pole.

[HeroR]

Dont forget that mixed blood Saiyans are supposed to have more potential and easier to achieve transformations than pure blooded. This has been established already. So u cant compare Trunks and Goten with Caulifla.

Yeah, there is that too. Good point. Was that stated or implied? Sometimes it seems like Super has retconned the potential of half-breeds that was established in Z. Goten and Trunks are pretty low on the totem pole.

You can compare Goten and Trunks to the U6 Saiyans in that they're all tailless, something that has been noted to make Saiyans stronger by Toriyama. Also, Cali and Kale didn't even get Super Saiyan as easily as Goten and Trunks who got it so easily that they don't even remember when it happened and they are much weaker than Cali to boot.

Super also didn't retcon the potential of half-breeds. The problem with the half-breeds is despite their potential, they're lazy and don't want to train for their power. As Daizenshuu 4 put it:

The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.

Talent means nothing if you don't make the effort to hone it.

[Artorias]

I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.

I definitely agree. My problem with Super currently is that they haven't gone all the way with it yet. I think the biggest example of this in recent episodes was Hit vs Jiren, which was cool up to Jiren literally "transcending time because his so strongth" to beat a technique that he absolutely shouldn't have been able to with sheer power alone.

So basically I love the idea of strategy gaining more and more importance, but the stupid power system of Z is still evident when you have characters like Jiren bending the plot to win fights through nothing but brain-dead "strongths".

Yes exactly. They need to go all the way with it. Jiren should have come up with a counter STRATEGY to beat Hit's time trap, not just grunt loudly and overpower TIME ITSELF. That's just stupid and boring. Toei needs to ignore the powerscalers entirely and do a total re-vamp of the system. Let the powerscalers whine and complain, eventually they'll either stop watching or pipe down.

[lord turbo]

You can use all the lore in the world, it's all still guess work. The best you get is maybe because they're hybrids, but not even Gohan had the luxary of poping into Super saiyan at that young an age when he was angry and emotional. And he is the god damn face of Rage boosts. It's all maybes and probablys and what if's. So if someone gets to use iffy info for those 2 then the same should be granted the girls who actually have on screen methods. It's not nonsense, it's using what we know and what's actually being told to us.

When I say lore, I'm talking about things actually stated and shown in the series, getting SSJ from anger trigger (which is what Vegeta specifically told Cabba) and hybrids having high battle power due to mixtures of their genes isn't something I made up and comes straight from the series which is further supported by the Daizenshuu as HeroR was kind enough to show us. As for Gohan not turning SSJ was weird, he already had the power level necessary for it and should have been a SSJ before the android arc began all things considered outside of the plot simply not having him as one.

As it stands Trunks and Goten got their forms a lot easier than the girls. That's also guess work but it's as good as anything else anyone comes up with. Saying the boys can do it because they're Hybrids is pretty much just telling me "Cuz genetics", which is fine but guess what, the girls also have that because it's been stated that they evolve differently because it's a different Universe. Basically Genetics. It's the same excuse. They literally could not have gone out of their way more to say that these saiyans are different unless they came from a different reality and had 4 eyes and purple skin.

Them doing it because of hybrid genetics is essentially what the story, Toriyama, and Daizenshuu said so what's the issue here?

At least Caulifla was actually taught by Cabba. "Focus your strength into your back" That's how he says he does it and then he describes it as a tingly feeling. It's not their fault the fanbase decided to run with the description and make it sound as silly as possible to diminish it. Jealousy may sound silly, but if we can use real world logic, some people are just more emotional than others. If Maybes are ok, then MAYBE the thought of losing Caulifla is that tramatic to her. It's trivial to us but to her it's the biggest deal in the world.

If the series explains something in a stupid way don't be surprise when the fanbase runs with it. Fair enough point about jealousy in regards to Kale.

I don't care if someone doesn't like the girls. I really don't. Dislike them all you want but these rants about how they ruined SSJ from some folk because they got it to easy is ridiculous, when Goten and Trunks got it POSSIBLY easier and they have no real explanation that isn't made up by fans to justify it.

Except we know the reason why Goten and Trunks got it so using them as examples to excuse Kale and Caulifla's short comings makes little sense, sounds like shifting the blame onto someone else to me.

[Boo Machine]

Them doing it because of hybrid genetics is essentially what the story, Toriyama, and Daizenshuu said so what's the issue here?

I don't know anymore to be quite honest, this is why I don't like to do paragraph long debates, because I lose track easily. I am not a smart man.

If the series explains something in a stupid way don't be surprise when the fanbase runs with it. Fair enough point about jealousy in regards to Kale.

It is a very silly way to describe it. I agree on that much. But it doesn't make it less valid. At the very worst it's just cheap and that's stretching it.

Except we know the reason why Goten and Trunks got it so using them as examples to excuse Kale and Caulifla's short comings makes little sense, sounds like shifting the blame onto someone else to me.

Sure we know the WHY. And that's really all I or anyone else needs. The how is so irrelevant at this point that it would just be flavor text for the sake of lore. But we also know the how and why the girls gets theirs.

I don't bring up the comparison to shift blame. When I bring it up it's usually as a response to someone saying that SSJ shouldn't ever be an easy thing to get and there is only one way to get it. I bring up the comparison to ask why it's ok then and why it isn't ok now. Assuming they were ok with it before in the first place. If not then I can understand why they still wouldn't like it.

[HeroR]

Them doing it because of hybrid genetics is essentially what the story, Toriyama, and Daizenshuu said so what's the issue here?

I don't know anymore to be quite honest, this is why I don't like to do paragraph long debates, because I lose track easily. I am not a smart man.

If the series explains something in a stupid way don't be surprise when the fanbase runs with it. Fair enough point about jealousy in regards to Kale.

It is a very silly way to describe it. I agree on that much. But it doesn't make it less valid. At the very worst it's just cheap and that's stretching it.

Except we know the reason why Goten and Trunks got it so using them as examples to excuse Kale and Caulifla's short comings makes little sense, sounds like shifting the blame onto someone else to me.

Sure we know the WHY. And that's really all I or anyone else needs. The how is so irrelevant at this point that it would just be flavor text for the sake of lore. But we also know the how and why the girls gets theirs.

I don't bring up the comparison to shift blame. When I bring it up it's usually as a response to someone saying that SSJ shouldn't ever be an easy thing to get and there is only one way to get it. I bring up the comparison to ask why it's ok then and why it isn't ok now. Assuming they were ok with it before in the first place. If not then I can understand why they still wouldn't like it.

I want to add this.

Super Saiyan stopped being special in the manga after Goku got it on Namek. Trunks came out of nowhere with it and used it to sliced up Freeza and we looked at his flashback, he got Super Saiyan off-scene since he had it before Gohan died. Vegeta got it off-scene when it was noted that he didn't have a pure-heart and we get some BS about Vegeta being pure evil. Gohan got it off-scene and it was treated as just the opening step of making Gohan remotely useful.

In other words, Super Saiyan lost its luster before Goten and Trunks. They just made it much more apparent. It only comes off as jarring if you only watched the anime which kept Super Saiyan as a special thing gotten by bitter tears and anger until they couldn't do it anymore.

[Asura]

I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.

I definitely agree. My problem with Super currently is that they haven't gone all the way with it yet. I think the biggest example of this in recent episodes was Hit vs Jiren, which was cool up to Jiren literally "transcending time because his so strongth" to beat a technique that he absolutely shouldn't have been able to with sheer power alone.

So basically I love the idea of strategy gaining more and more importance, but the stupid power system of Z is still evident when you have characters like Jiren bending the plot to win fights through nothing but brain-dead "strongths".

Yes exactly. They need to go all the way with it. Jiren should have come up with a counter STRATEGY to beat Hit's time trap, not just grunt loudly and overpower TIME ITSELF. That's just stupid and boring. Toei needs to ignore the powerscalers entirely and do a total re-vamp of the system. Let the powerscalers whine and complain, eventually they'll either stop watching or pipe down.

This is a great example of Super being inconsistent, so people who think Super is consistent should really sit down and think about this because one episode with Jiren it relies on power levels and the next with Caulifla and Goku tries to rely on skill and tactics. There's no consistency.

[nato25]

When people say the power scaling is completely broken, i still find that the outcomes of the fights seem true to what people would expect. I cant think of any immediate examples that speak to the opposite.

[BWri]

You can compare Goten and Trunks to the U6 Saiyans in that they're all tailless, something that has been noted to make Saiyans stronger by Toriyama.

And it makes sense when you think about it. Maybe that 10x power boost is just naturally supplanted to their bodies now. Maybe it's an even greater boost for the U6 Saiyans since they've evolved many generations in this way. Gee, I wish someone in the show would supply this information!

Also, Cali and Kale didn't even get Super Saiyan as easily as Goten and Trunks who got it so easily that they don't even remember when it happened and they are much weaker than Cali to boot.

Looked like the girls did get it easier. What information are you pulling from that says Goten and Trunks got their forms easier and that they can't remember when it happened? Is it the manga? I don't remember that.

Super also didn't retcon the potential of half-breeds. The problem with the half-breeds is despite their potential, they're lazy and don't want to train for their power. As Daizenshuu 4 put it:

The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.

Talent means nothing if you don't make the effort to hone it.

100% agree. I wonder if the half breeds have the same potential as the U6 evolved Saiyans and vice versa. I wonder is there any benefit to having full Saiyan blood with no tail vs. partial saiyan blood and no tail, other than the violent temperament.

[BWri]

When people say the power scaling is completely broken, i still find that the outcomes of the fights seem true to what people would expect. I cant think of any immediate examples that speak to the opposite.

I think anything involving Super's version of Trunks. He's just too inconsistent around the board. Really, only his defeat of Dabura made sense.

[JazzMazz]

I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.

I definitely agree. My problem with Super currently is that they haven't gone all the way with it yet. I think the biggest example of this in recent episodes was Hit vs Jiren, which was cool up to Jiren literally "transcending time because his so strongth" to beat a technique that he absolutely shouldn't have been able to with sheer power alone.

So basically I love the idea of strategy gaining more and more importance, but the stupid power system of Z is still evident when you have characters like Jiren bending the plot to win fights through nothing but brain-dead "strongths".

Yes exactly. They need to go all the way with it. Jiren should have come up with a counter STRATEGY to beat Hit's time trap, not just grunt loudly and overpower TIME ITSELF. That's just stupid and boring. Toei needs to ignore the powerscalers entirely and do a total re-vamp of the system. Let the powerscalers whine and complain, eventually they'll either stop watching or pipe down.

Yeah, Dragonball(specifically in Z) had a tendency to write itself into a corner where the only way to beat the opponent is because they're stronger. The problem I have is that these corners are usually pretty easy to write out of with a little imagination. For example with Hit vs Jiren, make Hits time trap flawed in some way, if its just Hit repeatedly using Time-skip just on Jiren, make it so there is a small window between each time-skip that Jiren can exploit or something along those lines. Instead he just powered up to win with minimal skill or strategy involved.

The fact that most situations are overcome through power even though there are creative ways to get around it shows how series has lost a lot of fight creativity due to powerscaling determining the winner of a fight for decades. There are some instances when there are exceptions, but they are still far from being the rule, which I hope is something that continues to become more prevalent.

[Boo Machine]

This is a great example of Super being inconsistent, so people who think Super is consistent should really sit down and think about this because one episode with Jiren it relies on power levels and the next with Caulifla and Goku tries to rely on skill and tactics. There's no consistency.

While there are inconsistencies that should be acknowledged this isn't a good example. These are different fighters with different strengths and abilities not every fighter is going to have to be dealt with in the same manner as Roshi's episode proved.

It is a good example of inconsistency that should be happening though. Because Jiren using his muscles to break out of time, while that sounds metal as hell, I feel it was probably the most boring way he could have gotten out of it. Goku in base having the edge over SSJ2 Caulifla because of his experience maybe inconsistent with whatever formula that started getting stale in Z's later arcs, but it's a lot more interesting and still uses what we know about the characters.

[HeroR]

You can compare Goten and Trunks to the U6 Saiyans in that they're all tailless, something that has been noted to make Saiyans stronger by Toriyama.

And it makes sense when you think about it. Maybe that 10x power boost is just naturally supplanted to their bodies now. Maybe it's an even greater boost for the U6 Saiyans since they've evolved many generations in this way. Gee, I wish someone in the show would supply this information!

Also, Cali and Kale didn't even get Super Saiyan as easily as Goten and Trunks who got it so easily that they don't even remember when it happened and they are much weaker than Cali to boot.

Looked like the girls did get it easier. What information are you pulling from that says Goten and Trunks got their forms easier and that they can't remember when it happened? Is it the manga? I don't remember that.

Super also didn't retcon the potential of half-breeds. The problem with the half-breeds is despite their potential, they're lazy and don't want to train for their power. As Daizenshuu 4 put it:

The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.

Talent means nothing if you don't make the effort to hone it.

100% agree. I wonder if the half breeds have the same potential as the U6 evolved Saiyans and vice versa. I wonder is there any benefit to having full Saiyan blood with no tail vs. partial saiyan blood and no tail, other than the violent temperament.

With Goten, he did say in the manga that he couldn’t remember when or how he became Super Saiyan. He just did. The anime an explanation that he transformed when training with Chi-Chi. Trunks, they didn’t bother to explain anything with him in either the manga and anime.

[Kuwabara]

Gohan as a child was consistently stated to be inexperienced in combat. We see this at the start of the series, Vegeta said it in the Namek saga, and Piccolo implied it in the Cell Games. However, when Gohan transformed into a SSJ2, Cell--a being specifically designed to be the perfect fighter--had no chance.

Alright, I'll bite. Yes, Gohan was stated to be inexperienced multiple times, but by the time he faces Cell, he had also been training under martial arts masters and surviving perilous situations for most of his life, with a massive amount of potential also on his side. Not to mention that he trained an extra year in the RoSaT, under harsher conditions than Earth can provide. Cell was around in his perfect form for what, a week? Gohan was pushing himself and training his entire life for this fight.

You also make it sound as if Cell had absolutely no chance. Didn't he massively fuck up one of Gohan's arms with a ki blast? The fight was pretty close.

[fadeddreams5]

Gohan as a child was consistently stated to be inexperienced in combat. We see this at the start of the series, Vegeta said it in the Namek saga, and Piccolo implied it in the Cell Games. However, when Gohan transformed into a SSJ2, Cell--a being specifically designed to be the perfect fighter--had no chance.

You also make it sound as if Cell had absolutely no chance. Didn't he massively fuck up one of Gohan's arms with a ki blast? The fight was pretty close.

That was after Cell committed suicide, and he only managed that cause Gohan protected Vegeta from the blast.

[nato25]

When people say the power scaling is completely broken, i still find that the outcomes of the fights seem true to what people would expect. I cant think of any immediate examples that speak to the opposite.

I think anything involving Super's version of Trunks. He's just too inconsistent around the board. Really, only his defeat of Dabura made sense.

While the Trunks arc was probably the best example of broken I can think of, the outcomes still line up ok in my mind.

Trunks never defeated zamasu or black. He did defeat the fusion, however there was definitely something going on with his body in terms of it breaking down so he was more just finishing off a weakened opponent, it was vegito blue that put in all the work.

Even then zamasu came back due to his immortality and essentially won that fight, zen oh had to step in and end it. So zamasu with immortality still beat trunks in the end and zenoh beat zamasu.

[gofishus]

When people say the power scaling is completely broken, i still find that the outcomes of the fights seem true to what people would expect. I cant think of any immediate examples that speak to the opposite.

There's always a few twists though. SSJB Vegeta should have been able to beat Frieza - but it ended up being Goku. SSJB Vegito should have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but ended up running out of time (which was a retcon). SSJ2 Trunks should not have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but he did with a spirit bomb sword learned from who knows ?? SSJ3 Gotenks should have been able to defeat base Copy Vegeta - but he didn't stand a chance. those are just a few off the top of my head...

[PsionicWarrior]

When people say the power scaling is completely broken, i still find that the outcomes of the fights seem true to what people would expect. I cant think of any immediate examples that speak to the opposite.

There's always a few twists though. SSJB Vegeta should have been able to beat Frieza - but it ended up being Goku. SSJB Vegito should have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but ended up running out of time (which was a retcon). SSJ2 Trunks should not have been able to beat merged Zamasu - but he did with a spirit bomb sword learned from who knows ?? SSJ3 Gotenks should have been able to defeat base Copy Vegeta - but he didn't stand a chance. those are just a few off the top of my head...

In this episode, Goku struggled more as a SSJ2 than in his base form.

[Zagacious]

Surprised you didn't mentioned Buu Saga Gohan who went from a rusty Super Saiyan 2 who was actually weaker than he was seven years go to becoming the strongest unfused character by sitting on his ass for 24 hours. At least Cali somewhat worked for Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. She didn't have Kai to do a ritual to unlock her hidden power.

Is this a troll account? Almost every claim I see you make defending Super either extremely exaggerates problems with DBZ or just dismisses the problems with Super as if they don't even exist. Gohan was training through meditation and that's how he got stronger, similar to how Frieza did but using a Kai to do it for you, as opposed to the people in DBS are actually sitting on their ass doing nothing and getting stronger.

It contributes nothing to the conversation if you can't make a post without exaggerating or straight making things up, it's basically just spamming. I strongly suggest you rewatch DBZ if you actually believe any of this crap you are spewing.