"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:24 am

batistabus wrote:I'm not sure why one would defend the characterization of characters in the anime over the manga. It's not entirely the fault of the anime staff...rather, it is largely due to the nature of the product. Toei and Toyotaro have the same amount of material to work with, but Toei is forced to stretch the tidbits much further to fill time. Where the manga can convey something and move on, the anime staff needs to milk what they have in order to fit a 24 minute episode every week. This is why in the anime characters constantly repeat themselves and their personality traits are exaggerated/overdone. I'd imagine it also makes it easier for children to understand and remember characters. This "fat" makes for a dragged-out and tiring experience.

People seem to largely prefer the anime's characterization of Black and Zamasu over the manga. For me, if I were inclined to feel this way, it would be almost entirely due to the performances of Nozawa and Miki. I love anime Black's fabulousness, but everything else about the manga portrayal of these characters is more cohesive, nuanced, and satisfying to me.

While the anime inherently has issues as a medium, the manga does as well. I've heard people complain that Toyotaro focuses too much on fights and not enough on letting characters express their personalities in other ways. I think the fights have been plenty interesting, but I would be quite happy to have a little more space between bouts of combat. I think it's possible/likely that Toyotaro doesn't have a say in the matter. My guess is that Shueisha expects at least one fight scene per chapter in order to maintain interest for a monthly serialization. I would imagine that he doesn't have much control over the length of the manga's arcs, either.

Of course, while the anime and manga crews are each under certain constraints, that doesn't mean their products couldn't be improved.

While I love this chapter, I feel that the Zenos being overwhelmed by the Battle of Gods is potentially...problematic. If they can't keep up with a 12 person free-for-all, why would they be interested in an 80 person battle royale? I understand that most of the fighters in the tournament are far beneath the level of gods, but I'd imagine they'd still find it overwhelming. I guess we'll see if that's addressed soon enough.
I agree with you on the anime team having to stretch stuff out to fill the time. It’s very apparent. This is why you hear nothing but love from the 2nd Universe Representatives, Heles and Pell, Toppo talks about nothing but justice and trying to survive, Zamasu nothing but the sin of the gods and humans, Vegeta and his pride, and there’s more. Toyotarou gets to the point and moves on like you said.

I don’t agree with your comment on the Zenohs not liking the Hakaishin battle. The Zenohs didn’t like it because they did nothing but try to kill each other and they have hatred towards one another. With the humans, they try to do different things instead of brutally take someone down. I think it’s due to the humans like Gokuh, doing different techniques instead of shooting someone with an arrow in attempt to kill them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:58 am

Rhuagh wrote:
HeroR wrote:-
Are you seriously saying you thought anime!Black was threatening? Goku could have defeated him any time he wanted, he was vastly more powerful than Black from the start to the end. You go on and on about manga antagonists being weaker than the main characters when the anime has a prime exemple of that in Black (and Toppo).
Yes, Anime Black was threatening since Goku in that arc couldn’t use the Kaioken freely. And Black nearly killed Goku twice, once when Goku even rage boosted.

Toppo is the only example so far where the manga upped the threat from the anime and Toppo isn’t the main ‘villain’, Jiren is.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rhuagh » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:05 am

mfwlegend3 wrote:
Rhuagh wrote:Goku could have defeated him any time he wanted, he was vastly more powerful than Black from the start to the end.
Is that why he was still overwhelmed by Black despite having full-on killing intent after Black and Zamasu told him about the murder of his family? Or how about the time he had a difficult time with SSR Black in E57?
You, like Goku in that saga, forgot about Kaioken.
HeroR wrote:Yes, Anime Black was threatening since Goku in that arc couldn’t use the Kaioken freely.
Except he could, and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. The fact he didn't is simply because Toriyama didn't write the story taking it into account, as it so far has been purely Toei's nonsense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:12 am

So Manga Black being generic was part of the outline.

Mirai Zamasu being Blue level was a Toei thing, he was never supposed to be strong.

Anime Black being flamboyant helped the series gain female fans heh.

Like SSJG appearing in the anime, Kale strength retcon is probably another sign Toyotaro is gaining more power.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:17 am

Rhuagh wrote:
mfwlegend3 wrote:
Rhuagh wrote:Goku could have defeated him any time he wanted, he was vastly more powerful than Black from the start to the end.
Is that why he was still overwhelmed by Black despite having full-on killing intent after Black and Zamasu told him about the murder of his family? Or how about the time he had a difficult time with SSR Black in E57?
You, like Goku in that saga, forgot about Kaioken.
HeroR wrote:Yes, Anime Black was threatening since Goku in that arc couldn’t use the Kaioken freely.
Except he could, and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. The fact he didn't is simply because Toriyama didn't write the story taking it into account, as it so far has been purely Toei's nonsense.
How did I forget the Kaioken when I mentioned it in my post?

No he couldn’t. Goku explained in 39 that the Kaioken has a 90% failure rate and it could kill him if he failed, not to mention make him extremely sick and could cripple him forever. Even if Goku improved the odds, I doubt it was so low that Goku could just do it willy-nilly, otherwise he would like he’s doing in this arc.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:33 am

perucho1990 wrote:So Manga Black being generic was part of the outline.

Mirai Zamasu being Blue level was a Toei thing, he was never supposed to be strong.

Anime Black being flamboyant helped the series gain female fans heh.

Like SSJG appearing in the anime, Kale strength retcon is probably another sign Toyotaro is gaining more power.
Flamboyant anime Gokû Black was a delight; so thank you whoever at Toei came up with the idea.

Has anyone translated the full interview into English? I checked the usual translators (Herms and Sailorspazz) and neither has anything on it yet.
On hiatus.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by micah007 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:39 am

Herms has highlights from the interview posted. Slowly it does look like Toyotaro is coming into his own writing plot details. Also Toriyama gives a critique of Toyos fight scenes saying it would be better If he drew them with a "rougher" edge something I'd like to see him improve on personally.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:46 am

So we can finally confirmed that Super Saiyan God returning along with a lot of the twists in the manga were Toyo’s ideas that Toriyama blessed. At least we got that out of the way.

The part about Zamasu is strange since he said Zamasu wasn’t that strong in the original draft so two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan’s could beat him. So are they saying that Goku and Vegeta were needed to beat Zamasu and Herms seem to think they mean Merged Zamasu.

Also, glad Toriyama’s agrees that Toyo is too safe. Although safe in my eyes is his copy panels.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:50 am

HeroR wrote:So we can finally confirmed that Super Saiyan God returning along with a lot of the twists in the manga were Toyo’s ideas that Toriyama blessed. At least we got that out of the way.

The part about Zamasu is strange since he said Zamasu wasn’t that strong in the original draft so two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan’s could beat him. So are they saying that Goku and Vegeta were needed to beat Zamasu and Herms seem to think they mean Merged Zamasu.
With how you word it, sounds like Vegetto wasn't going to appear originally and Merged Zamasu was weak enough that a Goku Vegeta tag team could beat him.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:53 am

HeroR wrote:So we can finally confirmed that Super Saiyan God returning along with a lot of the twists in the manga were Toyo’s ideas that Toriyama blessed. At least we got that out of the way.

The part about Zamasu is strange since he said Zamasu wasn’t that strong in the original draft so two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan’s could beat him. So are they saying that Goku and Vegeta were needed to beat Zamasu and Herms seem to think they mean Merged Zamasu.
Toyotaro has said that he asked for a correction for a part that says "Zamasu" to be changed to "Merged Zamasu" but it was left. He did say he'd tweet the correct version once the books on sale.
It seems like that is the part Toyotaro is talking about.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:54 am

perucho1990 wrote:So Manga Black being generic was part of the outline.

Mirai Zamasu being Blue level was a Toei thing, he was never supposed to be strong.

Anime Black being flamboyant helped the series gain female fans heh.

Like SSJG appearing in the anime, Kale strength retcon is probably another sign Toyotaro is gaining more power.
You read it wrong. Apperently Merged Zamasu wasn’t originally that strong and Goku and Vegeta together could beat him. It seems this was change so Goku and Vegeta would be forced to fused.

Not sure how you got Manga Black being generic was part of the outline. All I read is what Black was based on.

Also, what Kale strength retcon?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:55 am

This now means something appearing in the anime and manga does not mean it was in the outline, other words the outline doesn't matter it is a Toei and Toyo product respectively.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:55 am

Toyotaro is having way too much of an influence on this series and I don't like it all.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:58 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:Toyotaro is having way too much of an influence on this series and I don't like it all.
The only thing that he seemingly had influence on was Vegetto and even then it is unclear if he was the actual one who came up with it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:59 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:This now means something appearing in the anime and manga does not mean it was in the outline, other words the outline doesn't matter it is a Toei and Toyo product respectively.
That is something to note. Especially if both the manga and anime had to upped Merged Zamasu. That also explained why Vegetto was a flash in the pan. He wasn’t even originally there.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Toyotaro is having way too much of an influence on this series and I don't like it all.
The only thing that he seemingly had influence on was Vegetto and even then it is unclear if he was the actual one who came up with it.
According to what I’ve read, the anime and the manga were allowed to go on different tracks since a lot of twists in the manga isn’t in the anime. Seems the only thing taken for both was uppering Merged Zamasu from being something like Golden Freeza to needing a fusion. If that was Toyo’s idea, I’m glad he made it since if Merged Zamasu was that weak, how pathetic was Black and Future Zamasu?
Last edited by HeroR on Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:01 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Toyotaro is having way too much of an influence on this series and I don't like it all.
The only thing that he seemingly had influence on was Vegetto and even then it is unclear if he was the actual one who came up with it.
I can't help but think he might of came up with a certain other fusion.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:02 pm

This makes Toyotaro feel more like an editor than anything else.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:02 pm

Toriyama called out Toyo for the constant Z homages, thats what I understood in Herms translations, Toyo needs to think outside the box..

So Goku vs Merged Zamasu was Toyos idea while Genkidama Trunks vs Merged Zamasu was Toei :think:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:04 pm

perucho1990 wrote:Toriyama called out Toyo for the constant Z homages, thats what I understood in Herms translations, Toyo needs to think outside the box..

So Goku vs Merged Zamasu was Toyos idea while Genkidama Trunks vs Merged Zamasu was Toei :think:
That is why Vegito was not in the original draft as Toriyama does not usually do the same thing twice.
Chuquita wrote:This makes Toyotaro feel more like an editor than anything else.
I do not really like the 'fans expectations' line. It will will end up limiting creativity and uniqueness going forward.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:13 pm

If anyone's wondering, the time limit of the Potaras was in Toriyama's draft. Zamasu being immortal was as well.

Toriyama enjoys Toyotarou's ideas and prefers it this way, instead of just relying on what he writes. Either way, Toyotarou sometimes distances himself from the draft (like with God Vegeeta) but mainly respects each "bullet point".
namekiansaiyan wrote:Toyotaro is having way too much of an influence on this series and I don't like it all.
Well, you could see it as a way for Piccolo to have some relevance. Unless Toriyama wrote that Piccolo stays as is, there's a possibility Toyotarou could give him a new attack or power-up.

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