"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Chuquita]

Toriyama called out Toyo for the constant Z homages, thats what I understood in Herms translations, Toyo needs to think outside the box..

So Goku vs Merged Zamasu was Toyos idea while Genkidama Trunks vs Merged Zamasu was Toei

That is why Vegito was not in the original draft as Toriyama does not usually do the same thing twice.

This makes Toyotaro feel more like an editor than anything else.

I do not really like the 'fans expectations' line. It will will end up limiting creativity and uniqueness going forward.

I do prefer Gokû and Vegeta working together rather than taking the shortcut of Vegetto (and now the potara's been retconned) but if I think of it in the vein of Toyotaro as an editor rather than the sole writer I can be more at peace with it

[perucho1990]

You read it wrong. Apperently Merged Zamasu wasn’t originally that strong and Goku and Vegeta together could beat him. It seems this was change so Goku and Vegeta would be forced to fused.

Not sure how you got Manga Black being generic was part of the outline. All I read is what Black was based on.

Also, what Kale strength retcon?

He then mentions how Dragon Ball's villains are always the "absolute evil that needs to be defeated" kind of characters, and that Zamasu's "Distorted sense of Justice" is what set him apart from prior villains. The next part says that even though both Zamasu and Shin are supposed to represent good, their characters are total opposites. Tori then mentions that he's not that good at portraying interior conflicts in his drawings by himself. Toyo says how Buu had none of that, and then Tori adds that back when he did Cell, he thought it was really "annoying" and that doing simple villains that are "just bad" is a lot easier.

This should explain why Manga Black was completely generic.

[HeroR]

You read it wrong. Apperently Merged Zamasu wasn’t originally that strong and Goku and Vegeta together could beat him. It seems this was change so Goku and Vegeta would be forced to fused.

Not sure how you got Manga Black being generic was part of the outline. All I read is what Black was based on.

Also, what Kale strength retcon?

He then mentions how Dragon Ball's villains are always the "absolute evil that needs to be defeated" kind of characters, and that Zamasu's "Distorted sense of Justice" is what set him apart from prior villains. The next part says that even though both Zamasu and Shin are supposed to represent good, their characters are total opposites. Tori then mentions that he's not that good at portraying interior conflicts in his drawings by himself. Toyo says how Buu had none of that, and then Tori adds that back when he did Cell, he thought it was really "annoying" and that doing simple villains that are "just bad" is a lot easier.

This should explain why Manga Black was completely generic.

That only tells us that Black was too complex for Toriyama to properly write or draw. He wasn’t generic for Dragon Ball since as noted, ‘Distorted sense of Justice’ over ‘absolute evil that needs to be defeated’.


Thinking about, Toei being able to write Black and Zamasu so well makes sense since they had taken rather bland villains before made them more complex. As I say this I’m thinking of 90s Sailor Moon when compared to the original manga.

[dbgtFO]

He then mentions how Dragon Ball's villains are always the "absolute evil that needs to be defeated" kind of characters, and that Zamasu's "Distorted sense of Justice" is what set him apart from prior villains. The next part says that even though both Zamasu and Shin are supposed to represent good, their characters are total opposites. Tori then mentions that he's not that good at portraying interior conflicts in his drawings by himself. Toyo says how Buu had none of that, and then Tori adds that back when he did Cell, he thought it was really "annoying" and that doing simple villains that are "just bad" is a lot easier.

This should explain why Manga Black was completely generic.

Source please.

[namekiansaiyan]

If anyone's wondering, the time limit of the Potaras was in Toriyama's draft. Zamasu being immortal was as well.

Toriyama enjoys Toyotarou's ideas and prefers it this way, instead of just relying on what he writes. Either way, Toyotarou sometimes distances himself from the draft (like with God Vegeeta) but mainly respects each "bullet point".

Toyotaro is having way too much of an influence on this series and I don't like it all.

Well, you could see it as a way for Piccolo to have some relevance. Unless Toriyama wrote that Piccolo stays as is, there's a possibility Toyotarou could give him a new attack or power-up.

I also see it in a bad way with Piccolo as he could be the reason why Piccolo is not seperating from Gohan and if Piccolo did get a power it might be because the Namekians fuse which I don't want. I want a brand new type of power up and attack for Piccolo and not a throwback just like Vegito was. Throwbacks is the worst thing in Dragon Ball Super.

We know Toyotaro helped with characters in the Universal Survival Arc so I wouldn't be surprised if he actually helped with the way actual story elements are and how fights go. However the hints we have at the way he thinks, I am not liking it and I hope we get another interview after the tournament finishes to get information on what Toyotaro actually did.

[MaskedRider]

"Toriyama got inspiration for Goku Black from Kamen Rider Black."

Is it Gorgom?

[BlueBasilisk]

My post seems to have been eaten by a forum gremlin.

I'm glad they upped the threat level of Merged Zamasu. Goku Black must have been a real sad sack if Goku and Vegeta could handle the fusion together. And I think Toyotaro made the right call here. If Black and Zamasu fused but Goku and Vegeta didn't, the fans would have been all over it.

The stuff about absolute evil villains is interesting too since this arc doesn't seem to have one. Except Frieza....

[Lord Beerus]

So from what I've gathered from the interview so far:

- Future Trunks training in the Kaioshin realm and gaining healing powers, Vegeta gaining Super Saiyan God off-screen and several of the "twists and turns" leading up to Goku fighting Merged Zamasu were all Toyotaro's idea with Toriyama's supervision
- Toriyama approved most of Toyotaro's drafts for the Future Trunks arc the first time round
- Toriyama wants Toyotaro to tone down on how much he imitates how Toriyama used to Dragon Ball and to be more rough and less "careful" with how he draws fights
- The concept of Goku Black originated from Toriyama being inspired by "copies of the hero" characters like Fake Ultra Man, Fake Kamen Rider from Kamen Rider Black
- Vegetto, or at least the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing, was not in Toriyama's original plot outline. This was, contrary to believe, Toyotaro's idea and not Toei's. And the justification Toyotaro provided for Goku and Vegeta fusing was to "meet fan expectations". As given their current personalities in Super, it's likely that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse after the Majin Boo arc. So Vegetto was 100% fan-service thrown in by Toyotaro and Toei just followed suit because... why not?
- Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the original draft and two Super Saiyan Blue's (Goku and Vegeta) would have been able to handle him. So basically the anime staff chose to beef up Merged Zamasu's strength, so that beyond his immortality, he was a genuine threat in battle. While Merged Zamasu remained below the realm of SSJB in the manga, as originally intended in Toriyama's plot outline.

Do I have all that right?

[Totamo]

I knew it, Toriyama is like 30% involved with all this.

[HeroR]

So from what I've gathered from the interview so far:
- Future Trunks training and gaining healing powers, Vegeta gaining Super Saiyan God off-screen and several of the "twists and turns" leading up to Goku fighting Merged Zamasu were all Toyotaro's idea with Toriyama's supervision
- Toriyama approved most of Toyotaro's drafts for the Future Trunks arc the first time round
- Toriyama wants Toyotaro to tone down on how much he imitates how Toriyama used to Dragon Ball and to be more rough and less "careful" with how he draws fights
- The concept of Goku Black originated Toriyama being inspired by "copies of the heroes characters" like Fake Ultra Man, Fake Kamen Rider from Kamen Rider Black
- Vegetto, or at least the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing, was not in the original plot outline. This was, contrary to believe, Toyotaro's idea and not Toei's. And the justification Toyotaro provided for Goku and Vegeta fusing was to "meet fan expectations". As given their current personalities in Super, it's likely that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse after the Majin Boo arc. So Vegetto was 100% fan-service thrown in by Toyotaro and Toei just followed suit because... why not?
- Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the original draft and two Super Saiyan Blue's (Goku and Vegeta) would have been able to handle him. So basically the anime staff chose to beef up Merged Zamasu's strength, so that beyond his immortality, he was a genuine threat in battle. While Merged Zamasu remained below the realm of SSJB in the manga, as originally intended in Toriyama's plot outline.

Do I have all that right?

Even in the manga, Merged Zamasu easily beat Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta at the same time. Goku needed Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan just to do anything. So both the manga and anime made Merged Zamasu stronger. The anime did it more so Vegetto would have an actual challenge.

I knew it, Toriyama is like 30% involved with all this.

What’s up with the random low number?

[TheSaiyanGod]

You read it wrong. Apperently Merged Zamasu wasn’t originally that strong and Goku and Vegeta together could beat him. It seems this was change so Goku and Vegeta would be forced to fused.

Not sure how you got Manga Black being generic was part of the outline. All I read is what Black was based on.

Also, what Kale strength retcon?

He then mentions how Dragon Ball's villains are always the "absolute evil that needs to be defeated" kind of characters, and that Zamasu's "Distorted sense of Justice" is what set him apart from prior villains. The next part says that even though both Zamasu and Shin are supposed to represent good, their characters are total opposites. Tori then mentions that he's not that good at portraying interior conflicts in his drawings by himself. Toyo says how Buu had none of that, and then Tori adds that back when he did Cell, he thought it was really "annoying" and that doing simple villains that are "just bad" is a lot easier.

This should explain why Manga Black was completely generic.

I did not see this in the Herms translation.

Has anyone translated more parts of the interview?

[emperior]

I would wait for the full interview first, but this is surely interesting. It seems like Toyotaro is Toriyama's editor, and he suggests changes before the full outline is completed, and in this case his major contribution was that he suggested Vegetto (or just Goku and Vegeta fusing) then Toriyama agreed, and he invented the 1 hour time limit.
The "original draft" was then changed, which explains why the anime too had Vegetto. It was not something Toyo came up with on the fly.
This would also explain why they reverted Goku and Vegeta to their old outfits since the beginning of the arc.

[Totamo]

So from what I've gathered from the interview so far:
- Future Trunks training and gaining healing powers, Vegeta gaining Super Saiyan God off-screen and several of the "twists and turns" leading up to Goku fighting Merged Zamasu were all Toyotaro's idea with Toriyama's supervision
- Toriyama approved most of Toyotaro's drafts for the Future Trunks arc the first time round
- Toriyama wants Toyotaro to tone down on how much he imitates how Toriyama used to Dragon Ball and to be more rough and less "careful" with how he draws fights
- The concept of Goku Black originated Toriyama being inspired by "copies of the heroes characters" like Fake Ultra Man, Fake Kamen Rider from Kamen Rider Black
- Vegetto, or at least the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing, was not in the original plot outline. This was, contrary to believe, Toyotaro's idea and not Toei's. And the justification Toyotaro provided for Goku and Vegeta fusing was to "meet fan expectations". As given their current personalities in Super, it's likely that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse after the Majin Boo arc. So Vegetto was 100% fan-service thrown in by Toyotaro and Toei just followed suit because... why not?
- Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the original draft and two Super Saiyan Blue's (Goku and Vegeta) would have been able to handle him. So basically the anime staff chose to beef up Merged Zamasu's strength, so that beyond his immortality, he was a genuine threat in battle. While Merged Zamasu remained below the realm of SSJB in the manga, as originally intended in Toriyama's plot outline.

Do I have all that right?

Even in the manga, Merged Zamasu easily beat Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta at the same time. Goku needed Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan just to do anything. So both the manga and anime made Merged Zamasu stronger. The anime did it more so Vegetto would have an actual challenge.

I knew it, Toriyama is like 30% involved with all this.

What’s up with the random low number?

Do you think its higher? If Toriyama's involvement was more than that, toei and toyo would not be able to add their own ideas to this level.

[perucho1990]

Someone from Narutoforums bought the volume and asked another user to translate the full interview, and we see stuff that wasnt in Herms translation.

[Analytical Delusion]

Anything in the interview on kaio-ken blue, and why Toyo/AT decided not to use it in the manga?

[dbgtFO]

Someone from Narutoforums bought the volume and asked another user to translate the full interview, and we see stuff that wasnt in Herms translation.

Why didn't you just provide the link in the first place?
Even now you didn't provide a link!

[HeroR]

So from what I've gathered from the interview so far:
- Future Trunks training and gaining healing powers, Vegeta gaining Super Saiyan God off-screen and several of the "twists and turns" leading up to Goku fighting Merged Zamasu were all Toyotaro's idea with Toriyama's supervision
- Toriyama approved most of Toyotaro's drafts for the Future Trunks arc the first time round
- Toriyama wants Toyotaro to tone down on how much he imitates how Toriyama used to Dragon Ball and to be more rough and less "careful" with how he draws fights
- The concept of Goku Black originated Toriyama being inspired by "copies of the heroes characters" like Fake Ultra Man, Fake Kamen Rider from Kamen Rider Black
- Vegetto, or at least the concept of Goku and Vegeta fusing, was not in the original plot outline. This was, contrary to believe, Toyotaro's idea and not Toei's. And the justification Toyotaro provided for Goku and Vegeta fusing was to "meet fan expectations". As given their current personalities in Super, it's likely that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse after the Majin Boo arc. So Vegetto was 100% fan-service thrown in by Toyotaro and Toei just followed suit because... why not?
- Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the original draft and two Super Saiyan Blue's (Goku and Vegeta) would have been able to handle him. So basically the anime staff chose to beef up Merged Zamasu's strength, so that beyond his immortality, he was a genuine threat in battle. While Merged Zamasu remained below the realm of SSJB in the manga, as originally intended in Toriyama's plot outline.

Do I have all that right?

Even in the manga, Merged Zamasu easily beat Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta at the same time. Goku needed Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan just to do anything. So both the manga and anime made Merged Zamasu stronger. The anime did it more so Vegetto would have an actual challenge.

I knew it, Toriyama is like 30% involved with all this.

What’s up with the random low number?

Do you think its higher? If Toriyama's involvement was more than that, toei and toyo would not be able to add their own ideas to this level.

They can because Toriyama supervised and are okay with some of their ideas. So he’s more than 30% since everything goes through him.

[HeroR]

I would wait for the full interview first, but this is surely interesting. It seems like Toyotaro is Toriyama's editor, and he suggests changes before the full outline is completed, and in this case his major contribution was that he suggested Vegetto (or just Goku and Vegeta fusing) then Toriyama agreed, and he invented the 1 hour time limit.
The "original draft" was then changed, which explains why the anime too had Vegetto. It was not something Toyo came up with on the fly.
This would also explain why they reverted Goku and Vegeta to their old outfits since the beginning of the arc.

It doesn’t since Goku and Vegeta’s outfits don’t match what they wore in the Buu Saga, especially Vegeta.

[Meshack]

Toriyama called out Toyo for the constant Z homages, thats what I understood in Herms translations, Toyo needs to think outside the box..

So Goku vs Merged Zamasu was Toyos idea while Genkidama Trunks vs Merged Zamasu was Toei

That is why Vegito was not in the original draft as Toriyama does not usually do the same thing twice.

This makes Toyotaro feel more like an editor than anything else.

I do not really like the 'fans expectations' line. It will will end up limiting creativity and uniqueness going forward.

I do prefer Gokû and Vegeta working together rather than taking the shortcut of Vegetto (and now the potara's been retconned) but if I think of it in the vein of Toyotaro as an editor rather than the sole writer I can be more at peace with it

Vegetto is Gokuh and Vegeta working together

[Meshack]

I would wait for the full interview first, but this is surely interesting. It seems like Toyotaro is Toriyama's editor, and he suggests changes before the full outline is completed, and in this case his major contribution was that he suggested Vegetto (or just Goku and Vegeta fusing) then Toriyama agreed, and he invented the 1 hour time limit.
The "original draft" was then changed, which explains why the anime too had Vegetto. It was not something Toyo came up with on the fly.
This would also explain why they reverted Goku and Vegeta to their old outfits since the beginning of the arc.

It doesn’t since Goku and Vegeta’s outfits don’t match what they wore in the Buu Saga, especially Vegeta.

Why do you think Vegeta’s armor was destroyed? We don’t fully know how the clothing works when you fuse wih the Potara. Yes, it’s a combination of both the users’ clothes but we don’t know if it stays the same or not when you do fuse or if it depends