"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Meshack]

Anything in the interview on kaio-ken blue, and why Toyo/AT decided not to use it in the manga?

Why talk about something that’s not in the manga or something Toriyama didn’t write?

[Meshack]

So we can finally confirmed that Super Saiyan God returning along with a lot of the twists in the manga were Toyo’s ideas that Toriyama blessed. At least we got that out of the way.

The part about Zamasu is strange since he said Zamasu wasn’t that strong in the original draft so two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan’s could beat him. So are they saying that Goku and Vegeta were needed to beat Zamasu and Herms seem to think they mean Merged Zamasu.

With how you word it, sounds like Vegetto wasn't going to appear originally and Merged Zamasu was weak enough that a Goku Vegeta tag team could beat him.

Vegetto was not originally in Toriyama’s script. Toriyama had it so two Super Saiyan Blues was enough for Potara Zamasu. Toyotarou changed it so he Gokuh and Vegeta had to fuse but it seems he still kept Gokuh being able to challenge Zamasu. I don’t understand how the anime was able to do this because the anime is all over the place with the power, but the manga had Gokuh master Blue so he could challenge Zamasu

[Miracles]

Toriyama himself approves all Toyotaro's ideas BUT sometimes he had to make corrections.
So Toriyama is heavily involved in his story. Not only does he give Toyotaro the outline but he does have to get Toriyama's blessings on his ideas.
Toriyama wants Toyotaro to even add more of his own flavor into the outline! So Toyotaro wasn't doing things as freely as the fandom thought!

The thing is though he could freeze him for 0.1 seconds, its just that Goku countered everytime he did and was slightly stronger anyway, so Goku was in a no lose situation where even though he was being damaged, he was doing more damage in the long run.

The only reason that Hit's 0.1 Time-Skip wasn't effective on SSJB Goku was because Goku knew how to counter it before hand. Hence, why Hit had to increase his Time-Skip to get the advantage again. SSJB Vegeta had no idea how the Time-Skip worked, Hit took advantage of that, and kicked his ass.

Blue Goku was punching Hit before Hit could reach him in 0.1 seconds. Time skip was not fully working on him.

[HeroR]

So we can finally confirmed that Super Saiyan God returning along with a lot of the twists in the manga were Toyo’s ideas that Toriyama blessed. At least we got that out of the way.

The part about Zamasu is strange since he said Zamasu wasn’t that strong in the original draft so two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan’s could beat him. So are they saying that Goku and Vegeta were needed to beat Zamasu and Herms seem to think they mean Merged Zamasu.

With how you word it, sounds like Vegetto wasn't going to appear originally and Merged Zamasu was weak enough that a Goku Vegeta tag team could beat him.

Vegetto was not originally in Toriyama’s script. Toriyama had it so two Super Saiyan Blues was enough for Potara Zamasu. Toyotarou changed it so he Gokuh and Vegeta had to fuse but it seems he still kept Gokuh being able to challenge Zamasu. I don’t understand how the anime was able to do this because the anime is all over the place with the power, but the manga had Gokuh master Blue so he could challenge Zamasu

Goku broke his arms against a surpressed Merged Zamasu and did the Kaioken. After that, Goku challenged Merged Zamasu again.

Toriyama himself approves all Toyotaro's ideas BUT sometimes he had to make corrections.
So Toriyama is heavily involved in his story. Not only does he give Toyotaro the outline but he does have to get Toriyama's blessings on his ideas.
Toriyama wants Toyotaro to even add more of his own flavor into the outline! So Toyotaro wasn't doing things as freely as the fandom thought!

The thing is though he could freeze him for 0.1 seconds, its just that Goku countered everytime he did and was slightly stronger anyway, so Goku was in a no lose situation where even though he was being damaged, he was doing more damage in the long run.

The only reason that Hit's 0.1 Time-Skip wasn't effective on SSJB Goku was because Goku knew how to counter it before hand. Hence, why Hit had to increase his Time-Skip to get the advantage again. SSJB Vegeta had no idea how the Time-Skip worked, Hit took advantage of that, and kicked his ass.

Blue Goku was punching Hit before Hit could reach him in 0.1 seconds. Time skip was not fully working on him.

It was, but Goku was predicting it until Hit improved.

[Miracles]

If anyone's wondering, the time limit of the Potaras was in Toriyama's draft. Zamasu being immortal was as well.

Toriyama enjoys Toyotarou's ideas and prefers it this way, instead of just relying on what he writes. Either way, Toyotarou sometimes distances himself from the draft (like with God Vegeeta) but mainly respects each "bullet point".

Thank you. Do you or Herms translate the entirety of the interview?
Or do we wait for Kanzenshuu site to do so?

It was, but Goku was predicting it until Hit improved.

Blue Goku could see Hit cause Hit's punch grazed a dodging Goku before Hit could reach him in 0.1 seconds.
You even see in the multiple exchanges later that Blue Goku was punching Hit before/during Time skip.

[HeroR]

If anyone's wondering, the time limit of the Potaras was in Toriyama's draft. Zamasu being immortal was as well.

Toriyama enjoys Toyotarou's ideas and prefers it this way, instead of just relying on what he writes. Either way, Toyotarou sometimes distances himself from the draft (like with God Vegeeta) but mainly respects each "bullet point".

Thank you. Do you or Herms translate the entirety of the interview?
Or do we wait for Kanzenshuu site to do so?

It was, but Goku was predicting it until Hit improved.

Blue Goku could see Hit cause Hit's punch grazed a dodging Goku before Hit could reach him in 0.1 seconds.
You even see in the multiple exchanges later that Blue Goku was punching Hit before/during Time skip.

He didn’t see Hit, he predicted Hit. Time-Skip becoming less effective is only in the manga.

[JazzMazz]

It was, but Goku was predicting it until Hit improved.

Blue Goku could see Hit cause Hit's punch grazed a dodging Goku before Hit could reach in 0.1 seconds.
You even see in the multiple exchanges later that Goku was punching Hit during Time skip.

No he wasn't.

There was no point in the early fight where Goku had "broken through" or lessened Hits timeskip.

That is simply an extraplorlation that you made from the show in order to fit the manga continuity even though there is no evidence to suggest that.

For reference, this all the times in episode 39 when Hit uses his 0.1 timeskip on Goku. Goku countered the first time because Hits attack hadn't fully landed in his time-skip the first time he used it, but later in the fight his clearly shown landing blows on Goku using Time-skip, however, his countered each time he does so.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[sintzu]

I think Toyotarou made the right choice by suggesting Goku and Vegeta to fuse as not only would them taking down fused Zamasu without it make him look like a joke, Black and Zamasu must've been very weak in the original draft, not even SsjG level.

I do think he and Toei should've went with Gogeta instead as it would've prevented the retcon that they did with Vegetto and keep his one time appearance a special thing or at the very least save him for when they truly have an idea to justify his return instead of it being a 5 minute fan service.

As someone who loves the manga, I'm very happy to hear that Toyotarou has a lot of control over the story as it rasis the possibilities of the manga avoiding the mistakes I think the anime is making in the current arc.

As things stand and unless said otherwise, it seems like Toriyama has a lot more to do with the manga than he does the anime so the haters going on about it just being side promotion can hopefully stop now. Another thing is that the "great" anime is being heavily influenced by Toyotarou as he's behind Vegetto's return.

[Miracles]

He didn’t see Hit, he predicted Hit. Time-Skip becoming less effective is only in the manga.

No, Blue Goku wouldn't be able to punch Hit and slightly dodge Hit's attacks then before Hit reached Goku in 0.1 seconds if he didn't see him.
The anime showed time skip was shortened too.

No he wasn't.

There was no point in the early fight where Goku had "broken through" or lessened Hits timeskip.

That is simply an extraplorlation that you made from the show in order to fit the manga continuity even though there is no evidence to suggest that.

For reference, this all the times in episode 39 when Hit uses his 0.1 timeskip on Goku. Goku countered the first time because Hits attack hadn't fully landed in his time-skip the first time he used it, but later in the fight his clearly shown landing blows on Goku using Time-skip, however, his countered each time he does so.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Thank you, the bold along with the clips, proves the point that Time skip was shortened.
Hit's punched only GRAZED Goku, meaning Goku was MOVING before 0.1 seconds. Hence why Hit's punch didn't fully connect.
Look at the second clip, we clearly see Goku punching Hit in the face DURING his time skip.
Goku's punch is interrupting Hit before he could reach him in the 0.1 seconds.

[JazzMazz]

He didn’t see Hit, he predicted Hit. Time-Skip becoming less effective is only in the manga.

No, Blue Goku wouldn't be able to punch Hit and slightly dodge Hit's attacks then before Hit reached Goku in 0.1 seconds.
The anime showed time skip was shortened too.

No he wasn't.

There was no point in the early fight where Goku had "broken through" or lessened Hits timeskip.

That is simply an extraplorlation that you made from the show in order to fit the manga continuity even though there is no evidence to suggest that.

For reference, this all the times in episode 39 when Hit uses his 0.1 timeskip on Goku. Goku countered the first time because Hits attack hadn't fully landed in his time-skip the first time he used it, but later in the fight his clearly shown landing blows on Goku using Time-skip, however, his countered each time he does so.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Thank you, the bold along with the clips, proves the point that Time skip was shortened.
Hit's punched only GRAZED Goku, meaning Goku was MOVING before 0.1 seconds. Hence why Hit's punch didn't fully connect.
Look at the second clip, we clearly see Goku punching Hit in the face DURING his time skip.
Goku's punch is interrupting Hit before he could reach him in the 0.1 seconds.

The punch your referring to shows Goku attacking at the end of Hits time-skip.

Its never stated anything about it being interrupted, its only stated to be out-manoeuvred.

Your first point also doesn't make sense since Goku was blocking Hits attacks in his base form. Are you going to argue that his base form shortens Hit's time-skip because he tried punching Goku but it was blocked?

Again, extraporlating something from the show that isn't shown or said just to prove your own head-canon.

[Sandubadear]

Was this posted already?

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

[sintzu]

Was this posted already?

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I don't think so. I like how it calls out the potara's time limit, it's the little things like this that make the manga so good.

[HeroR]

I would wait for the full interview first, but this is surely interesting. It seems like Toyotaro is Toriyama's editor, and he suggests changes before the full outline is completed, and in this case his major contribution was that he suggested Vegetto (or just Goku and Vegeta fusing) then Toriyama agreed, and he invented the 1 hour time limit.
The "original draft" was then changed, which explains why the anime too had Vegetto. It was not something Toyo came up with on the fly.
This would also explain why they reverted Goku and Vegeta to their old outfits since the beginning of the arc.

It doesn’t since Goku and Vegeta’s outfits don’t match what they wore in the Buu Saga, especially Vegeta.

Why do you think Vegeta’s armor was destroyed? We don’t fully know how the clothing works when you fuse wih the Potara. Yes, it’s a combination of both the users’ clothes but we don’t know if it stays the same or not when you do fuse or if it depends

Only a part of Vegeta’s armor was destroyed and it wasn’t at all in the manga.

My point, then going back to their old gi has nothing to do with fusion, especially since they kept the same clothes in this arc.

[Miracles]

The punch your referring to shows Goku attacking at the end of Hits time-skip.

Its never stated anything about it being interrupted, its only stated to be out-manoeuvred.

Your first point also doesn't make sense since Goku was blocking Hits attacks in his base form. Are you going to argue that his base form shortens Hit's time-skip because he tried punching Goku but it was blocked?

Again, extraporlating something from the show that isn't shown or said just to prove your own head-canon.

It's not head cannon. Base Goku only blocking Hit after that time skip proves that it was fully freezing Goku for the full 0.1 seconds. Showing that he was weaker than Hit.
Base Goku couldn't move during the skip. Base Goku could only block "AFTER" Time skip's 0.1 seconds. Allowing Hit to attack without interruption.
In Blue, Goku is shown ONLY being grazed by Hit's punch after the skip. Which shows that Goku was moving BEFORE Hit reached him in 0.1 seconds. Proving that Goku was stronger.
The manga and anime are demonstrating the same. Anime only showed it by visuals not in depth like the manga.

[Totamo]

Even in the manga, Merged Zamasu easily beat Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta at the same time. Goku needed Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan just to do anything. So both the manga and anime made Merged Zamasu stronger. The anime did it more so Vegetto would have an actual challenge.



What’s up with the random low number?

Do you think its higher? If Toriyama's involvement was more than that, toei and toyo would not be able to add their own ideas to this level.

They can because Toriyama supervised and are okay with some of their ideas. So he’s more than 30% since everything goes through him.

You know damn well Toriyama likes to take the easy way when it comes to this sort of thing, notice how we never once heard of him telling them an idea was bad or giving a disapproval of an idea.


I am thoroughly convinced Toriyama does not care what they do and lets them do what they want, they give him an idea, he will say go ahead and do it then they will put his name on it. Its a marketing tool because his name is powerful.


And if you disagree, find one interview on super where Toriyama said no to one thing they proposed.

[sintzu]

I am thoroughly convinced Toriyama does not care what they do and lets them do what they want, they give him an idea, he will say go ahead and do it then they will put his name on it. Its a marketing tool because his name is powerful.

We've got a female Broly now so it's going to be hard to prove you wrong. It really does seem like he's OK with most of what they do and that his name is more of a "Toriyama approval" than anything else. As far as I know GT had that as well but unlike GT, he's trying to keep them in the right direction so obviously he's doing more than he did with GT's staff. Based on us not getting any comment from him for the current arc, I think his involvment might've been even less than it was in Black's arc.

He said multiple times that the Buu arc was his limit and 20+ years later, it seems like that's still true. I guess if there's one good thing about him not being as involved as we thought he was is that it shows he didn't just stop the manga because he was tired of it, he really didn't have anything else to tell.

[HeroR]

Do you think its higher? If Toriyama's involvement was more than that, toei and toyo would not be able to add their own ideas to this level.

They can because Toriyama supervised and are okay with some of their ideas. So he’s more than 30% since everything goes through him.

You know damn well Toriyama likes to take the easy way when it comes to this sort of thing, notice how we never once heard of him telling them an idea was bad or giving a disapproval of an idea.


I am thoroughly convinced Toriyama does not care what they do and lets them do what they want, they give him an idea, he will say go ahead and do it then they will put his name on it. Its a marketing tool because his name is powerful.


And if you disagree, find one interview on super where Toriyama said no to one thing they proposed.

If Toriyama doesn’t want to do something, he won’t do it. And just because we ‘never once heard of him telling them an idea was bad or giving a disapproval of an idea’ doesn’t mean it doesn’t happens. After all, the absent of evidence isn’t evidence. Especially when we have seen some of the corrections he did for the manga.

He cares. He’s just loose about people using their own ideas. It’s no different when his editors used to give him suggests during his manga days.

Where is your proof that he approves everything since you’re the one making the charge. The burden of proof is on you, especially since the absent of evidence isn’t evidence.

[emperior]

Do you think its higher? If Toriyama's involvement was more than that, toei and toyo would not be able to add their own ideas to this level.

They can because Toriyama supervised and are okay with some of their ideas. So he’s more than 30% since everything goes through him.

You know damn well Toriyama likes to take the easy way when it comes to this sort of thing, notice how we never once heard of him telling them an idea was bad or giving a disapproval of an idea.


I am thoroughly convinced Toriyama does not care what they do and lets them do what they want, they give him an idea, he will say go ahead and do it then they will put his name on it. Its a marketing tool because his name is powerful.


And if you disagree, find one interview on super where Toriyama said no to one thing they proposed.

I disagree. A very reliable source (kei17) reported, a while ago, that Toriyama was so angry with the anime's poor quality he wanted to quit Super, and they had to give him ideas for the next arc (FT arc) to keep him on board.
This means he actually cares somewhat, along with the fact that he supervises every storyboard. He's just very laid back and not too oppressive - I would speculate it's got something to do with his "hatred" towards his old editors, who disapproved many of his ideas.
While the anime and manga might not be the very best thing in some parts, they are both definitely Dragon Ball, they are doing well and are both good products. Toei and Toyo are following Toriyama's overall vision, so he's ok with them adding their own spin to spice things up in between plot points. Kaioken, for example, was well received and SSG returning too. Toyotaro also made a good call on fans wanting Vegetto/Goku and Vegeta fusing, and it made sense considering Kaioshin was there, Zamasu and Black fused too, and the retcon might prove useful in the future to give a better motivation to Goku and Vegeta not fusing other than pride.

[Kinokima]

There is no way that Toriyama would ever outright say he thought someone else's idea was horrible. So yeah just because he has never said it doesn't mean he just approves everything and doesn't care. People are being ridiculous if they think Toriyama is going to outright insult something to the public.

[sintzu]

Just because we ‘never once heard of him telling them an idea was bad or giving a disapproval of an idea’ doesn’t mean it doesn’t happens. The burden of proof is on you, especially since the absent of evidence isn’t evidence.

He cares. He’s just loose about people using their own ideas. It’s no different when his editors used to give him suggests during his manga days.

I'm sure there are things he turned down but it seems like most of the ideas they have get his OK. He approved a female Broly so he must not be turning down many things if something like that can get an OK.

I think he cares about the franchise's image and the fans who love it so much. If it's going to be continued he's obviously going to help who's involved which is what he's doing but unlike before, he seems to want this to be their project and story, not his.