Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

[HeroR]

Power is a strategy, and the application of power is an action. If I'm a fighter I can focus on improving the power of my attacks, or I can focus on building up my endurance. If I'm a cop I can bust down a door or I can smoke them out. I can hammer or I can screw.

Power is not a strategy, at least not in Dragon Ball. There is no strategy to power levels. It's A > B, there's no strategy involved. There is no focus on improving power of attacks instead of endurance, it's just power levels.

The strategy to increase your power to fight better has multiple times been featured in DB. From the very start it was the entire premise of Roshi's teachings:

The basics of the Kamesen Style Martial Arts are encompassed within the training you two have been doing for the past 7 months. It seems like you haven't noticed yourselves yet, but your eyes, fists, legs, and even your heads have become extremely keen. Fighting is just the application of your abilities.

I don't understand what you're saying. It's a bad tactic to choose because Jiren's power level is higher, there is no technique or strategy involved in this. Jiren is stronger than Hit because power levels, he was able to break out of Hit's attack because of his power level. It's not strategy, it's not technique, it's not a tactic, it's just A > B because the writers deem it so.

Well, you're out the gate dismissing Jiren's power advantage as one of his tactical advantages. He didn't cast a magic spell or do a fancy pose to get out of it, you're right; he used the strength of his body and his spirit to break free. I don't dismiss strength as a tactic, so it's eminently tactical to me.

Even if you continue to refuse that strength is tactical, surely you have to admit your opponent's strength should at least be part of your own tactical consideration. Hit should have already known that his move wouldn't have worked on JIren, thus making it a bad plan. But I've argued before he did know that, so I don't fault his decision making.

Caulifla IS a brawler. She happens to be a brawler that can also adapt.

Well, I disagree that she was ever a brawler; I think Whis simply judged her too quickly:

Beerus: What do you mean?! You said she was just a brawler!

Whis: Oh? Did I say that? <as he looks away with sweat on his face>

But even granting that she was a brawler, what was her adaptation? To become a martial artist. So it was only "brawler vs martial artist" for the very initial stages of that fight.

And yes, I am assuming Jiren is nothing but brawn because that's literally all he is. He has no special tactics, he has no special techniques, he doesn't use any kind of strategy. He is powerful because... he's powerful! That's just it, there's nothing else to it.

If you're implying Jiren is just like Caulifla then you're wrong, there's nothing at all to imply that Jiren has some sort of skill or disadvantage he has to overcome and adapt to instead of just being all powerful.

It seems we're both looking at the same thing and both seeing it as proof of our different conclusions. I see Jiren beating Goku and Hit as proof that his knowledge as a fighter is as strong as his strength — or, at least, not much below theirs. You see it as proof of inconsistency because you think Hit is a smarter fighter than Jiren and he lost easily, therefore tactics don't matter.

You can be an extremely gifted fighter without being a martial artists or even formally train. From what we have seen of Cali, she is more or less a brawler who got fooled by an After Image, but she learns quickly.

[Simere]

You can be an extremely gifted fighter without being a martial artists or even formally train. From what we have seen of Cali, she is more or less a brawler who got fooled by an After Image, but she learns quickly.

I don't hold falling for the afterimage against her chops as a technical fighter. It's a gimmick technique, and good gimmicks are most effective when your opponent hasn't seen them before. The afterimage has fooled martial arts experts in the series before, including Goku.

To be clear, I'm not saying she's her universe's preeminent expert on the mechanics of combat or anything. I think she had a decent to good grasp going into it, which next to Goku's immense understanding seemed like nothing, and so was inaccurately called nothing.

[HeroR]

You can be an extremely gifted fighter without being a martial artists or even formally train. From what we have seen of Cali, she is more or less a brawler who got fooled by an After Image, but she learns quickly.

I don't hold falling for the afterimage against her chops as a technical fighter. It's a gimmick technique, and good gimmicks are most effective when your opponent hasn't seen them before. The afterimage has fooled martial arts experts in the series before, including Goku.

To be clear, I'm not saying she's her universe's preeminent expert on the mechanics of combat or anything. I think she had a decent to good grasp going into it, which next to Goku's immense understanding seemed like nothing, and so was inaccurately called nothing.

There have been several fighters who easily countered the After Image, including Nam. It's a very basic attack and Goku didn't even used it in his more clever ways like he did against Freeza and Cell. It also only fooled Goku because he was fooled by a double and couldn't sense ki back then.

Cali is much like kid Goku at the 21st tournament. Highly talented and a quick learner, but is a greenhorn who lacks a lot of understanding of techniques. Especially when she complained how unfair the After Image was and wanted Goku to fight 'fair and square'.

[Simere]

There have been several fighters who easily countered the After Image, including Nam. It's a very basic attack and Goku didn't even used it in his more clever ways like he did against Freeza and Cell. It also only fooled Goku because he was fooled by a double and couldn't sense ki back then.

Cali is much like kid Goku at the 21st tournament. Highly talented and a quick learner, but is a greenhorn who lacks a lot of understanding of techniques. Especially when she complained how unfair the After Image was and wanted Goku to fight 'fair and square'.

Just because other fighters countered it doesn't mean those who didn't counter it were newb fighters, or that those who countered it are superiors to those who didn't. Sometimes gimmicks work; sometimes superior fighters don't know defenses that inferior ones do.

Kid Goku wasn't a greenhorn, though; he wasn't just raw talent, he was a highly trained expert. It's just that even experts can be made to look foolish by those with greater mastery. I've done it to experts myself, and it's been done to me way more times. And lacking experience with a breadth of gimmicks doesn't mean the more prominent and fundamental techniques—the mechanics of attacking and guarding—aren't there.

[HeroR]

Just because other fighters countered it doesn't mean those who didn't counter it were newb fighters, or that those who countered it are superiors to those who didn't. Sometimes gimmicks work; sometimes superior fighters don't know defenses that inferior ones do.

Kid Goku wasn't a greenhorn, though; he wasn't just raw talent, he was a highly trained expert. It's just that even experts can be made to look foolish by those with greater mastery. I've done it to experts myself, and it's been done to me way more times. And lacking experience with a breadth of gimmicks doesn't mean the more prominent and fundamental techniques—the mechanics of attacking and guarding—aren't there.

Not sure why you're reducing the After Image to a gimmick when it's a martial arts technique in the Dragon Ball, but the fact remains it's a basic attack that Cali called cheap and Goku scoffed at her for being so new.

Kid Goku was a greenhorn. Roshi outright called Goku 'wild, but strong' and Korin called him a greenhorn more or less when he met Goku. Goku had some fighting experience, but he made many newbie mistakes.

[Simere]

Not sure why you're reducing the After Image to a gimmick when it's a martial arts technique in the Dragon Ball, but the fact remains it's a basic attack that Cali called cheap and Goku scoffed at her for being so new.

Being a "martial arts technique in DB" doesn't make something not a gimmick. A gimmick, a basis attack, cheap — the extent to which it makes a difference to my point is extremely minor.

Kid Goku was a greenhorn. Roshi outright called Goku 'wild, but strong' and Korin called him a greenhorn more or less when he met Goku. Goku had some fighting experience, but he made many newbie mistakes.

The fact is even experts make newbie mistakes. I regularly watch pros mess up on a basic level. Caulifla not knowing the response to a technique she's never seen before isn't enough evidence for me to declare she never had an understanding of technical fighting.

[HeroR]

Not sure why you're reducing the After Image to a gimmick when it's a martial arts technique in the Dragon Ball, but the fact remains it's a basic attack that Cali called cheap and Goku scoffed at her for being so new.

Being a "martial arts technique in DB" doesn't make something not a gimmick. A gimmick, a basis attack, cheap — the extent to which it makes a difference to my point is extremely minor.

Kid Goku was a greenhorn. Roshi outright called Goku 'wild, but strong' and Korin called him a greenhorn more or less when he met Goku. Goku had some fighting experience, but he made many newbie mistakes.

The fact is even experts make newbie mistakes. I regularly watch pros mess up on a basic level. Caulifla not knowing the response to a technique she's never seen before isn't enough evidence for me to declare she never had an understanding of technical fighting.

A gimmick isn't a basic or cheap attack. Gimmick is something like Hit's Time-Skip since it's the central part of his entire fighting style.

True, but Goku made a lot more as a kid than the experts that he got called off on and called a greenhorn. This isn't about pros making mistake, it's the the characters and even the narrative of Dragon Ball calling Kid Goku a strong and gifted, but unskilled fighter. And it isn't about 'enough evidence' since Whis outright called her greenhorn, but was impressed by her growth. Goku also scoffed at her for acting new, and also impressed by her growth. The narrative, Cali is a strong and gifted fighter, who happened to be somewhat unskilled and can be unfocused.

[Simere]

True, but Goku made a lot more as a kid than the experts that he got called off on and called a greenhorn. This isn't about pros making mistake, it's the the characters and even the narrative of Dragon Ball calling Kid Goku a strong and gifted, but unskilled fighter.

Goku was trained in technical fighting by Gohan. He was more of an expert than all of Earth's masters save a handful, and in their eyes he was unskilled.

And it isn't about 'enough evidence' since Whis outright called her greenhorn, but was impressed by her growth.

And then not as outright, but just as clearly, admitted he was wrong to say that:

Beerus: What do you mean?! You said she was just a brawler!

Whis: Oh? Did I say that? <as he looks away with sweat on his face>

[HeroR]

True, but Goku made a lot more as a kid than the experts that he got called off on and called a greenhorn. This isn't about pros making mistake, it's the the characters and even the narrative of Dragon Ball calling Kid Goku a strong and gifted, but unskilled fighter.

Goku was trained in technical fighting by Gohan. He was more of an expert than all of Earth's masters save a handful, and in their eyes he was unskilled.

And it isn't about 'enough evidence' since Whis outright called her greenhorn, but was impressed by her growth.

And then not as outright, but just as clearly, admitted he was wrong to say that:

Beerus: What do you mean?! You said she was just a brawler!

Whis: Oh? Did I say that? <as he looks away with sweat on his face>

Goku had some technical training, but Gohan died when Goku was still young. When Krillin observed Goku, he called his stances sloppy. He was certainly not "more of an expert than all of Earth's masters save a handful" before going to Roshi since even Krillin, a newbie himself, called Goku out for his lack of fundamentals. Goku made up for this by by extremely powerful and a fast learner. Hence Roshi's 'wild, but strong'.

He didn't admit that he was wrong, especially when he said that Cali was learning. His statement was more on him underestimating Cali's ability to get better so fast. Something that impressed Goku, who also more or less called her a greenhorn for having trouble with the After Image.

[Simere]

Goku had some technical training, but Gohan died when Goku was still young. When Krillin observed Goku, he called his stances sloppy. He was certainly not "more of an expert than all of Earth's masters save a handful" before going to Roshi since even Krillin, a newbie himself, called Goku out for his lack of fundamentals. Goku made up for this by by extremely powerful and a fast learner. Hence Roshi's 'wild, but strong'.

Are you talking about Krillin calling his stance for running a sprint sloppy? And since I'm already asking, when did Roshi call him wild but strong? Even if I admitted Krillin were Goku's superior in terms of technique, you're calling him a newbie but he was also one of the premier martial artists of the world. He came from one of the world's best temples after having trained there for years. Very few people left on Earth were better than either of them. That doesn't mean they didn't still have leagues left to grow and sharpen their techniques, even just on Earth, but there's a big difference between a newbie that lacks any understanding of the intricacies at play, and an expert who still has miles to go on the road of mastery.

He didn't admit that he was wrong, especially when he said that Cali was learning. His statement was more on him underestimating Cali's ability to get better so fast. Something that impressed Goku, who also more or less called her a greenhorn for having trouble with the After Image.

How else can saying "did I say that" nervously be interpreted? You don't do that if you think you were right to say what you did. If she were just a brawler he shouldn't have any trouble owning up to it and calling her that again. Adapting to your opponent's moves is exactly what he was talking about when distinguishing between a brawler and a martial artist.

[Tombstone1988]

I think anyone complaining about Base Goku being able to take on SSJ2 Caulifla should really take a step back and realize what they're saying. You're essentially asking Toei to continue with the very mechanics that have made this franchise stale over the years, that is, that if someone has a bigger number, they literally can't be beaten, no matter how much strategy or teamwork you use. Don't you people realize that's boring as hell, and got old by the mid 90's? It confines the series to a small, rigid box that inhibits the potential for interesting storytelling and combat situations.

Honestly, SCREW the pre-established "rules" of the power system in Dragon Ball Z. They were boring and terrible back then, and I am more than glad that Toei is consistently playing with the idea of ditching those static rules altogether in favor of actual skill and strategy. Neither situation is ideal, but I would MUCH prefer them to retcon the power system entirely than continue this tired and formulaic excuse of power mechanics that has plagued this franchise for decades.

There's some merit to your point, but it is full of hyperbole and generalizations. With last week's previous episode you yourself posted that Vegeta thinking he could take Jiren was nonsensical. That's because power level A trumps power level B. If strategy trumped everything else, Vegeta should have been just fine going at him, right?

Power levels being a strict "A always trumps B" thing should go away forever, I agree. But the rules of the "power system" present a means of storytelling in themselves. Jiren is threatening because his power level dwarfs that of Hit and SSB w/ Kaioken Goku, previously established immense powers. Goku Black was a threat because he learned to harness a power that beat even SSB. Golden Freeza was a threat because he could easily go toe-to-toe with Goku's SSB form. If skill and strategy were the only determinants of a winner, Goku should've beaten Goku Black on the first trip back in time. He is, after all, a much better fighter. But that wouldn't be as threatening. It wouldn't carry the same weight as what actually occurred.

And I think you're missing a couple points on the "base Goku vs. SSJ2 Caulifla" debate. One point is that Goku is supposed to be fatigued. He should be exhausted, recuperating after his fight with Jiren. Instead, he's basically running circles around Caulifla. That makes very little sense, regardless of power levels. The other point is that, visually, the fight looked practically the same between when Goku was in his base form and when he went SSJ2. The visual interpretation made it seem like his transformation (which was for some reason elongated, almost like a Namek callback) was almost meaningless. And it's annoying because it's very easily remedied. Have a regular SSJ Caulifla getting schooled by a more skillful Goku, have her slowly adapt, have Goku transform, then have her go SSJ2 to compensate. Boom. Almost everyone's happy. Doesn't fix the fatigue problem, but hey, Super's not perfect.

[nato25]

In this episode, Goku struggled more as a SSJ2 than in his base form.

Thats kind of the point I was making though, during the fights it seems all over the place, but the outcome seems to remain consistent.

PsionicWarrior - I think I'm misunderstanding your points. It was clear Vegeta would have won that fight, it wasn't Frieza's blast that killed Vegeta but the planet exploding. SSJB Vegito also was a clear winner there I think but the whole potara retcon is a whole nother topic and I already talked about Trunks beating Merged Zamasu, I also hate that ending.

As for SSJ3 Gotenks, I think you could definitely argue at that time Base Copy Vegeta (who from what we know is equal to Base Vegeta) was stronger after being able to obtain SSJB and all that training from Whis. The kids had long slacked off in their training so even multiplying gotenks power as a SSJ3 probably wouldn't be enough. However I don't like that he couldn't even make him flinch. My point stands however, the outcome I think was consistent with expectations.

Not a fan of the two base theory. base > SSJ3 just sounds wrong...

I dont buy into that theory either i just think at this time in the series base vegeta is more powerful than gotenks at ssj3. A good comparison would be base goku beating final form frieza in resurrection f. At this point goku and vegeta were roughly equal id say most would agree. I cant see ssj3 gotenks doing that honestly.

[Noah]

Not a fan of the two base theory. base > SSJ3 just sounds wrong...

There's no reason to support this theory anymore. Goku transformed into a SSJ God again in this very arc, confirming he didn't absorbed the power into his Base and SSJ forms.

[gohan_black]

i think its the worst TOP episode yet. maybe more then 102. i know this because i just have no will whatsoever to watch it again. I'm just bored to death with caulifia and kale. they are terrible charecters with flat personality. the fight was quite lame as hell. whats bothering me even more is that we still have 2 more episodes with them. i also tired of goku. i want to see vegeta get an episode. vegeta vs toppo is far more interesting then goku vs Saiyan girls

[BlueBasilisk]

There's no reason to support this theory anymore. Goku transformed into a SSJ God again in this very arc, confirming he didn't absorbed the power into his Base and SSJ forms.

They literally tell you that he did in the BoG arc and he continues to be that strong into the Resurrection F arc and beyond. All it means is that his God form in the ToP is proportionally stronger than the one he used against Beerus. Two bases was never a thing and Saiyan Beyond God was just something Heroes cooked up until SSB was revealed and replaced it. Goku is just stronger in his normal base form.

[HeroR]

There's no reason to support this theory anymore. Goku transformed into a SSJ God again in this very arc, confirming he didn't absorbed the power into his Base and SSJ forms.

They literally tell you that he did in the BoG arc and he continues to be that strong into the Resurrection F arc and beyond. All it means is that his God form in the ToP is proportionally stronger than the one he used against Beerus. Two bases was never a thing and Saiyan Beyond God was just something Heroes cooked up until SSB was revealed and replaced it. Goku is just stronger in his normal base form.

Not to mention in the movie Battle of Gods, Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and was able to fight Beerus in base and Super Saiyan, yet he still transformed into Super Saiyan God near the end of the movie.

[BlueBasilisk]

Not to mention in the movie Battle of Gods, Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and was able to fight Beerus in base and Super Saiyan, yet he still transformed into Super Saiyan God near the end of the movie.

That's true, I forgot he did that. He did it to dispel Beerus' giant death ball didn't he?

[Miracles]

There's no reason to support this theory anymore. Goku transformed into a SSJ God again in this very arc, confirming he didn't absorbed the power into his Base and SSJ forms.

To add to the other posters above...Toriyama himself clearly states Goku absorbed god too.

[Asura]

i think its the worst TOP episode yet. maybe more then 102. i know this because i just have no will whatsoever to watch it again. I'm just bored to death with caulifia and kale. they are terrible charecters with flat personality. the fight was quite lame as hell. whats bothering me even more is that we still have 2 more episodes with them. i also tired of goku. i want to see vegeta get an episode. vegeta vs toppo is far more interesting then goku vs Saiyan girls

What? Caulifla has a flat personality? How do you even come to that conclusion? Caulifla RADIATES personality. It's oozing out of every pore. In fact, her overabundance of personality is what causes a lot of people to dislike her. She's arrogant, she's cocky, she's brave, she's excitable like Goku, she's got a lot going for her.

Actually, a "flat personality" isn't even a thing. If you google it you get "flat affect" which is showing no emotion to things that typically would elicit emotion. Definitely and very obviously the complete opposite of Caulifla. More of a Jiren thing, really.

Kale on the other hand I can see having a flat personality, but luckily her character has been improving every time she's been on screen lately.

[Noah]

They literally tell you that he did in the BoG arc and he continues to be that strong into the Resurrection F arc and beyond. All it means is that his God form in the ToP is proportionally stronger than the one he used against Beerus. Two bases was never a thing and Saiyan Beyond God was just something Heroes cooked up until SSB was revealed and replaced it. Goku is just stronger in his normal base form.

Not to mention in the movie Battle of Gods, Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and was able to fight Beerus in base and Super Saiyan, yet he still transformed into Super Saiyan God near the end of the movie.

Not to mention the movies are not correlated to this series. People can say Beerus stated that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God, but in fact means that was permanent? I don't think so, Goku could get stronger in Base due to his training with Whis.