DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:50 am

When you take the Kai edit out of the equation with all the filler in DBZ, hell no does the DBZ anime have better fights, not even all of Kai does. It also comes down to your preference of battle length and quality over quantity. Super has already had a handful of Veggetto vs Zamasu like, fluid short but sweet sequences. If only most of DBZ's fights were done as well as Vegeta vs Rikum. Unfortunately most of Toriyama's fights are padded the hell out so his awesome choreography from the manga suffers big time.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:02 am

The production is behind schedule, so the quality will continually suffer no matter what. There isn't enough time to have a small number of animators regularly work on episodes, the production assistants are constantly having to dig up animators or sub-contracting studios between their other commitments. Sub-contracting, especially on a short notice, is even more expensive, because you have to pay for another company to not only pay their animators, but also make the company as a whole a profit. Kyouto Animation personnel are on record stating that by taking the time to do everything in-house their projects actually cost less than normal projects in Japan. Combine that with a carefully curated studio of multiple super-talents and you wind up with consistently high-quality projects.

The key factors are animation production are time and talent. It's hard to recruit talent unless there is time and it's even harder to recruit talent if your main staff are not respected. A big thing that damages Dragon Ball Super is Yamamuro Tadayoshi's poor reputation. He's either known for his bad designs, his bad animation, his bad corrections, or his bad directing and backstabbing, if he's even known at all. Look at Yamamuro Tadayoshi's career: he's been an animator for thirty years but has barely moved outside of his comfort-zone and shown no inclination to improve or try new things. Yamamuro peaked extraordinarily early in his career and never recovered. As a result, good animators don't flood to his projects like you'll see with other titles. Talent flooded to Tiger Mask W and Toriko in part because of the respect Kagawa Hisashi commands. The moment that Umakoshi Yoshihiko left Saint Seiya Omega the series lost the majority of its best animators, too.

If you have a bad schedule and poor leadership you're going to wind up with few talented animators clamoring to work on your project.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Lionel » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:04 am

None of it is particularly original. I think you'll find that the choreographic scenes oftentimes recycle movements and scripts from previously written/animated scenarios -- both Toyotaro and Toei do this. It's why I can't really find agreement with Whis' explanation of Goku's "mastery" of martial arts enabling him to react to someone that should be dozens of times stronger and faster. It doesn't fit, neither in terms of the mechanics of the world or Goku's stylistic execution of combat. I mean why couldn't Hit defeat Jiren based on this same principle? If anyone's "martial arts" should have allowed them to win against a stronger opponent it was the guy who specialises on internal pressure point strikes since you can't bulk up your heart or lungs like you can external muscles.

In general the choreographic stunts tend to be repetitiously mirror each other so much that you begin to question just how much effort is being put into making these fights uniquely distinctive and memorable. This applies to Z as well. However, I would say that overall DBZ had better fights. Although Dragon Ball classic beats them both out, in my opinion.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:08 am

Lionel wrote:None of it is particularly original. I think you'll find that the choreographic scenes oftentimes recycle movements and scripts from previously written/animated scenarios -- both Toyotaro and Toei do this. It's why I can't really find agreement with Whis' explanation of Goku's "mastery" of martial arts enabling him to react to someone that should be dozens of times stronger and faster. It doesn't fit, neither in terms of the mechanics of the world or Goku's stylistic execution of combat. I mean why couldn't Hit defeat Jiren based on this same principle? If anyone's "martial arts" should have allowed them to win against a stronger opponent it was the guy who specialises on internal pressure point strikes since you can't bulk up your heart or lungs like you can external muscles.

In general the choreographic stunts tend to be repetitiously mirror each other so much that you begin to question just how much effort is being put into making these fights uniquely distinctive and memorable. This applies to Z as well. However, I would say that overall DBZ had better fights. Although Dragon Ball classic beats them both out, in my opinion.
Hit tried to use all his skills and failed. Power does not work every time either as evidenced by episode 113.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:05 am

sintzu wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Super still has the same issue it had since the start of the series because it isn't problem you can simply solve with money. How do you create more time for the limited amount of animators you own if you can't hire more staff.

Also, I would say that Super of late has been completely OK production wise, we have had some dips in quality, but nothing comparable to what happened at the start of the show or even in Z.

Also, Super does have scenes that look better than anything from Z. This is a comparison between some of Supers best(and my personal favourites) and Z best(which also has some of my personal favourites).
Toei is one of the biggest animation companies in Japan while DB is one of the biggest franchises, How can they not find the $$$ to hire anyone else ?

A good amount of fights have been very lackluster, especially the ones in the tournament.

The first fight wasn't anything special. The next 2 of UI looked great but lacked choreography. The last one with Black was truly an amazing clip and really shows that this show can be up there with the best of them if it wanted to.
The first fight is better animated than anything in Z. It has loads of wieght movements and effects and effectively uses the priniciples of animation like squash and stretch to add a real sense of speed and character to the scene in a way that Z was hardly ever able to. Its phenomenal stuff for a series like Dragonball.

TBH, I prefer the minute and half long UI scene to that part of the Black fight. While I felt the Black scene it was cool, I also felt that it didn't carry the impact of the fight as well as the aformentioned UI scene, which I felt did a better job at emphasizing the snappiness and weightiness of each action taken by the characters.

Also, the animator for that Black scene is apparently extremely slow and it took him roughly 7 weeks or so complete that simplified sequence. Its highly realistic to think the show would have stuff like that in it every week or even every second week.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:50 am

JazzMazz wrote:
sintzu wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Super still has the same issue it had since the start of the series because it isn't problem you can simply solve with money. How do you create more time for the limited amount of animators you own if you can't hire more staff.

Also, I would say that Super of late has been completely OK production wise, we have had some dips in quality, but nothing comparable to what happened at the start of the show or even in Z.

Also, Super does have scenes that look better than anything from Z. This is a comparison between some of Supers best(and my personal favourites) and Z best(which also has some of my personal favourites).
Toei is one of the biggest animation companies in Japan while DB is one of the biggest franchises, How can they not find the $$$ to hire anyone else ?

A good amount of fights have been very lackluster, especially the ones in the tournament.

The first fight wasn't anything special. The next 2 of UI looked great but lacked choreography. The last one with Black was truly an amazing clip and really shows that this show can be up there with the best of them if it wanted to.
The first fight is better animated than anything in Z. It has loads of wieght movements and effects and effectively uses the priniciples of animation like squash and stretch to add a real sense of speed and character to the scene in a way that Z was hardly ever able to. Its phenomenal stuff for a series like Dragonball.

TBH, I prefer the minute and half long UI scene to that part of the Black fight. While I felt the Black scene it was cool, I also felt that it didn't carry the impact of the fight as well as the aformentioned UI scene, which I felt did a better job at emphasizing the snappiness and weightiness of each action taken by the characters.

Also, the animator for that Black scene is apparently extremely slow and it took him roughly 7 weeks or so complete that simplified sequence. Its highly realistic to think the show would have stuff like that in it every week or even every second week.
I have a question. Why do these videos you post not show for me when I click them?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:55 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Toei is one of the biggest animation companies in Japan while DB is one of the biggest franchises, How can they not find the $$$ to hire anyone else ?

A good amount of fights have been very lackluster, especially the ones in the tournament.

The first fight wasn't anything special. The next 2 of UI looked great but lacked choreography. The last one with Black was truly an amazing clip and really shows that this show can be up there with the best of them if it wanted to.
The first fight is better animated than anything in Z. It has loads of wieght movements and effects and effectively uses the priniciples of animation like squash and stretch to add a real sense of speed and character to the scene in a way that Z was hardly ever able to. Its phenomenal stuff for a series like Dragonball.

TBH, I prefer the minute and half long UI scene to that part of the Black fight. While I felt the Black scene it was cool, I also felt that it didn't carry the impact of the fight as well as the aformentioned UI scene, which I felt did a better job at emphasizing the snappiness and weightiness of each action taken by the characters.

Also, the animator for that Black scene is apparently extremely slow and it took him roughly 7 weeks or so complete that simplified sequence. Its highly realistic to think the show would have stuff like that in it every week or even every second week.
I have a question. Why do these videos you post not show for me when I click them?
By video's, do you mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBpXiJ6DzcY
Or are you referring to the Webm's, because if thats the case I'm really not sure. Bad internet connection? I really don't know.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:50 am

JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: The first fight is better animated than anything in Z. It has loads of wieght movements and effects and effectively uses the priniciples of animation like squash and stretch to add a real sense of speed and character to the scene in a way that Z was hardly ever able to. Its phenomenal stuff for a series like Dragonball.

TBH, I prefer the minute and half long UI scene to that part of the Black fight. While I felt the Black scene it was cool, I also felt that it didn't carry the impact of the fight as well as the aformentioned UI scene, which I felt did a better job at emphasizing the snappiness and weightiness of each action taken by the characters.

Also, the animator for that Black scene is apparently extremely slow and it took him roughly 7 weeks or so complete that simplified sequence. Its highly realistic to think the show would have stuff like that in it every week or even every second week.
I have a question. Why do these videos you post not show for me when I click them?
By video's, do you mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBpXiJ6DzcY
Or are you referring to the Webm's, because if thats the case I'm really not sure. Bad internet connection? I really don't know.
The Webm's. I don't think it's my internet since it runs just fine.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:35 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
I have a question. Why do these videos you post not show for me when I click them?
By video's, do you mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBpXiJ6DzcY
Or are you referring to the Webm's, because if thats the case I'm really not sure. Bad internet connection? I really don't know.
The Webm's. I don't think it's my internet since it runs just fine.
Can you see Jacobs?

Because he uses the same source as I do.

Here's a test.


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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:42 am

JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: By video's, do you mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBpXiJ6DzcY
Or are you referring to the Webm's, because if thats the case I'm really not sure. Bad internet connection? I really don't know.
The Webm's. I don't think it's my internet since it runs just fine.
Can you see Jacobs?

Because he uses the same source as I do.

Here's a test.

I get a player, but nothing happens. Let me check on another bowser.

Edit: Apparently, this video doesn't work on Safari. Got it just fine on Chrome.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:11 pm

Amir wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Z's fights suffered from the poor adaptation, mainly starting from Goku vs Freeza on Namek. Fights in DBS have flown a lot better, the Majin Vegeta vs Goku is a good example it just went on and on and became boring that great Yamamuro cut aside it was just eh, cutaways in Z just made one lose immersion too whereas DBS at least when it cuts away still within the setting, using the Majin Vegeta fight as an example again they just kept cutting away to Gohan and Shin etc and when they cut back I am like oh they're still fighting?
Yes thank you! Someone else who thinks the same way I do. Most people just automatically yell at me that DBZ had everything better especially in the fights. I can feel nothing but amazed at how incorrect it is. So many fights with slow ass boring pacing and looped frames. There were some great choreographed fights, at least in a small portion of the fight but considering how long the fights were, most of the time they were looped frames.
Right. Honestly Z is just a terrible adaptation of Toriyama's Manga, if Toei were actually serious about making the Z half closer to the Manga and re-animated everything for Kai instead of the half-assery we got that would have been great instead we're stuck with what we have, a shame really.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:31 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Right. Honestly Z is just a terrible adaptation of Toriyama's Manga, if Toei were actually serious about making the Z half closer to the Manga and re-animated everything for Kai instead of the half-assery we got that would have been great instead we're stuck with what we have, a shame really.
Coming from the anime first to the manga later, it's surprising how quick and punchy the fights in the manga are. The Frieza fight still drags on a little longer than it should but most of the others get right to business.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:40 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:If Toei were actually serious about making the Z half closer to the Manga and re-animated everything for Kai instead of the half-assery we got that would have been great instead we're stuck with what we have, a shame really.
If it ended up with the same issues Super has which it most likely would've then fans would complain and say they should've just remastered the old footage.
JulieYBM wrote:The production is behind schedule, so the quality will continually suffer no matter what.
Why didn't they just do a Kai version of the original DB after Buu if they needed time to get things in order instead of putting themselves in a corner like this ? Or why not release the episodes every 2 weeks instead of the weekly schdule they're on ?
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Miracles » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:48 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: By video's, do you mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBpXiJ6DzcY
Or are you referring to the Webm's, because if thats the case I'm really not sure. Bad internet connection? I really don't know.
The Webm's. I don't think it's my internet since it runs just fine.
Can you see Jacobs?

Because he uses the same source as I do.

Here's a test.

How did you create a video clip like that?
I wanna know how too?

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:10 am

Miracles wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
The Webm's. I don't think it's my internet since it runs just fine.
Can you see Jacobs?

Because he uses the same source as I do.

Here's a test.

How did you create a video clip like that?
I wanna know how too?
Though I didn't personally create that upload, I have created stuff like it. Ajay created a pretty good guide about it.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434&p=1122872&hi ... x#p1122872

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Miracles » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:44 am

JazzMazz wrote:Though I didn't personally create that upload, I have created stuff like it. Ajay created a pretty good guide about it.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=32434&p=1122872&hi ... x#p1122872
Thank you.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:48 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:Overall in any series if a fight does not include a Saiyan then the fight choreography will generally be better so if it has 2 then it is generally bad. Just look at Goku vs Caulifla on episode 113 and it is easily one of the worst of the tournament.

This is because Saiyans have very little variety in the way they fight so the writers find it hard to make good fights which is not punch punch ki blast and then repeat.

When it comes to characters like Hit, Piccolo and Buu it is harder to make a bad fight then it is a good one as they are so easy to write fights for.
This is clearly false. Goku vs Vegeta (both times) and Goku vs Nappa easily are some of the best fights in the whole franchise. Using more tricks doesn't equal better choreography. Your argument is like saying Boxing matches suck because all they do is punch each other. Its the intensity, direction and momentum that makes a great fight, not what tricks and techniques they use.

And you are wrong about Goku vs Caulifla. Goku vs Caulifla/Kale/Kefla was actually better the one hour special with Jiren. Almost all of the best fights in the series feature a saiyan in them.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:57 am

JazzMazz wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Overall in any series if a fight does not include a Saiyan then the fight choreography will generally be better so if it has 2 then it is generally bad. Just look at Goku vs Caulifla on episode 113 and it is easily one of the worst of the tournament.

This is because Saiyans have very little variety in the way they fight so the writers find it hard to make good fights which is not punch punch ki blast and then repeat.

When it comes to characters like Hit, Piccolo and Buu it is harder to make a bad fight then it is a good one as they are so easy to write fights for.
I definitely agree with you that character which are more strategy and ability based are usually far more interesting to write than the Saiyan characters, but I feel thats a little out of place considering the topic...

Overall, I would have to go with Z for generally better storyboarding, but I would say Super has more movement generally and better animation highlights, even though it does lack the polish of Z.
Virtually all of the best fights in the franchise involve a saiyan, so how is he right? Goku vs Cauifla was actually pretty good, idk what he's talking about.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:58 am

blain218 wrote: And you are wrong about Goku vs Caulifla. Goku vs Caulifla/Kale/Kefla was actually better the one hour special with Jiren. Almost all of the best fights in the series feature a saiyan in them.
I think the Jiren fight is better and anything involving Jiren has been good.

Most fights in the series have Saiyans in them so your last sentence isn't really saying much.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:40 am

blain218 wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Overall in any series if a fight does not include a Saiyan then the fight choreography will generally be better so if it has 2 then it is generally bad. Just look at Goku vs Caulifla on episode 113 and it is easily one of the worst of the tournament.

This is because Saiyans have very little variety in the way they fight so the writers find it hard to make good fights which is not punch punch ki blast and then repeat.

When it comes to characters like Hit, Piccolo and Buu it is harder to make a bad fight then it is a good one as they are so easy to write fights for.
This is clearly false. Goku vs Vegeta (both times) and Goku vs Nappa easily are some of the best fights in the whole franchise. Using more tricks doesn't equal better choreography. Your argument is like saying Boxing matches suck because all they do is punch each other. Its the intensity, direction and momentum that makes a great fight, not what tricks and techniques they use.

And you are wrong about Goku vs Caulifla. Goku vs Caulifla/Kale/Kefla was actually better the one hour special with Jiren. Almost all of the best fights in the series feature a saiyan in them.
Eh, I didn't think Goku's fight with Nappa was really anything special to say the least. I agree with you on the Vegeta fights though, they are easily some of the strongest fights from the show.

As for Goku vs Caulifla/Kale/Kefla being better than the one hour special with Jiren, that not really true. Outside of Kales neat little scene in 100, thats really the only particularly well executed fight scene between Goku and the unfused female Saiyans from universe 6. Kefla's fight in 116 was really good for the most part, but even then, I would struggle to call it a stronger effort than the special, which at the end of the day, I feel is still the better animated and directed of the two fights.
blain218 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Overall in any series if a fight does not include a Saiyan then the fight choreography will generally be better so if it has 2 then it is generally bad. Just look at Goku vs Caulifla on episode 113 and it is easily one of the worst of the tournament.

This is because Saiyans have very little variety in the way they fight so the writers find it hard to make good fights which is not punch punch ki blast and then repeat.

When it comes to characters like Hit, Piccolo and Buu it is harder to make a bad fight then it is a good one as they are so easy to write fights for.
I definitely agree with you that character which are more strategy and ability based are usually far more interesting to write than the Saiyan characters, but I feel thats a little out of place considering the topic...

Overall, I would have to go with Z for generally better storyboarding, but I would say Super has more movement generally and better animation highlights, even though it does lack the polish of Z.
Virtually all of the best fights in the franchise involve a saiyan, so how is he right? Goku vs Cauifla was actually pretty good, idk what he's talking about.
I say that in terms of the actual content of the fight. Saiyans fights mainly just consist of powering up to hit their enemies really hard, in contrast to more interest stuff relating to poison or something unique along those lines.
As for Goku vs Caulifla, it wasn't exactly anything special, despite myself considering it an at least serviceable effort.

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