Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

[TekTheNinja]

See, I don't understand why everyone is so hung up on the "Toriyama handjob" thing. It's a funny and strangely accurate term. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it unless you're one of those prudes who want only the classiest of language to be used, in which case that's your own problem.

[BlueBasilisk]

Oh don't get me wrong, he's funny and he has some good insights. At the same time, I think his Dragon Ball stuff goes for the low-hanging fruit a bit too much. Like, the Tien video which blew up for going on about "Toriyama handjobs." Not exactly high critique

See, I'm the opposite; I'm fine to write off their power because I just don't care about that side of things. Meanwhile, it's their personalities that make me stick up for them. I was lukewarm on Caulifla in her first few scenes, but since the Tournament began she's grown on me tremendously, to the point where she might be my favourite character introduced in Super. I think it's her attitude; it's very typical Saiyan arrogance on the face of it but without the try-hard (dare I say impotent) cool of Vegeta or the cheerful obliviousness of Goku. She's energetic and brash, but not completely self-absorbed either. It's fun when she demands Goku to teach her Blue so she can beat him up with it, or talks about how the fight with Jiren only made her scared..."of (her) own infinite potential!" but she's also encouraging Kale to come out of her shell and join in the action, and trying seriously to step up when Cabba and Hit get knocked out.

As for Kale...look, the Broly stuff was dodgy, but it also hasn't been a problem for a while. At least they're trying to do something different with the concept; hell, the TFS version of Broly (aka the only good version) was basically Kale before Kale. Whereas, when she's not being Broly...not gonna lie, I don't mind that stuff. It's cliche but it's cute, I dig the obvious shipping. There was already homoerotic subtext between Goku and Vegeta before the Potara earrings sent them flying gayly toward one another, dick-first. I can't wait to see the gay go even further beyond when Caulifla and Kale fuse next ep.

Having watched some of his other stuff I think that Tien video was made with a healthy dose of sarcasm. He does that a lot. "Toriyama handjob" is crass but I don't think the point was wrong. Toriyama freely gives out power-ups no matter how "earned" they are when it's convenient for the story he's trying to tell and Goku himself has been the beneficiary multiple times, including right at the beginning of Super with the BoG arc and going back to the original BoG movie.

The Broly stuff doesn't bother me because even when she's doing it, there's a different spin. Broly could never be talked down from one of his murderous rampages and Kale actually went out of her way to avoid Caulifla the first time and ended up hitting her the second because she was right next to Goku. Plus once she gets control of herself she gladly teams up with Caulifla (also something Broly would never do), and is perfectly fine being around Goku and the others without rushing in to attack. There's some nuance there if you look but a lot of people just kneejerk hate anything resembling or referencing Broly. Certain aspects of his character get exaggerated and overblown too.

[RedHeat]

See, I don't understand why everyone is so hung up on the "Toriyama handjob" thing. It's a funny and strangely accurate term. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it unless you're one of those prudes who want only the classiest of language to be used, in which case that's your own problem.

Comments like these are one of the reasons I still come here.

[TekTheNinja]

See, I don't understand why everyone is so hung up on the "Toriyama handjob" thing. It's a funny and strangely accurate term. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it unless you're one of those prudes who want only the classiest of language to be used, in which case that's your own problem.

Comments like these are one of the reasons I still come here.

Sure, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

[Asura]

I think this is a good video in defense of Caulifla and Kale and how they don't deserve a lot of the hate they get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGKF8_RO28

Hahaha, oh Plague. I don't want this man in my corner, and clearly he doesn't either.

That being said, I think he's got the right idea about how this all came to be. Sometimes it's worth remembering that writers don't think about these things the way fans do, especially Toriyama who has admitted to not planning ahead or taking things seriously on multiple occasions. Also, that's the best take I've ever seen on the scene of Kale walking through the blast because it actually acknowledges the concept of homage. Goku had to be in Blue for the scene to work as intended, simple as that. Fans can either work around it or work with it but their power rankings were not the first consideration. I generally prefer to work with this stuff, which might be my tolerance of DB nonsense is so high. If I don't like something, I'll just stop watching which is what I did with GT.

Also, for all his whinging about not wanting to be a DragonTuber...still made a banner for it. How long til he pops up on Geekdom's channel?

What's wrong with him? I love the guy. He's great.

Anyway the difference for me though, is that while I hate their inexplicable power, I also think their personalities are insufferable. Caulifla is a spoiled brat and also a flat out bitch, and Kale has two modes: Broly, and "ZOMG I'M FIGHTING WITH SIS, I HOPE CAULIFLA SENPAI NOTICES ME!"

I don't really think Caulifla is a bitch. She's arrogant and cocky, but she still shows respect to people like Hit and even recently Cabba, and of course Goku.

[TekTheNinja]

Actually it's pissing me off a lot that whenever Caulifla sees a form, she immediately wants and then gets it. It's more about her being a spoiled brat and then getting what she wants anyway. It would be like if Vegeta during the Frieza Arc just became a super saiyan because he wanted to. It's annoying. It doesn't help that everyone around Caulifla is constantly validating her. They ALMOST gave her a flaw in saying that while Goku was a talented martial artist, she's just a street brawler... then immediately afterward Whis just decides that he was wrong and Caulfla WAS a talented martial artist the whole time! That's just stupid. It's because of stuff like that, that people say she's a Mary Sue.

[GodVegetto91]

It's not the fandom or even the public for that matter. It's Toei themselves who are absolutely obsessed with these two characters, and keep forcibly pushing them more and more and give them all the attention and focus. And just because of that, i hate them even more. I couldn't get more interested in them if i tried. Give me Goku Black or Zamasu all the way.

[precita]

Caulifa and Kale were awesome in today's episode. I really like them, and probably their fusion form too.

Finally we get kick ass lesbian female Super Saiyans. What sounded like nothing more than fanfiction a decade ago has become reality. What more can you possibly ask for?

[Cabba]

If Kale alon could beat Blue Goku then fused with a stronger fighter would result in more power needed assuming Super decides to use logic for the first time.

Good thing episode 114 fixed that inconsistency introduced in episode 100 or it other words made it clear that Berserk withstanding a Kamehameha from blue was just because Goku blue can diminish his energy to test opponents like he did against Krillin
SSG was shown as superior to Kale Berserk+ i loved that consistency and how it owned Kale and Caulifla
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I was wrong though, looks like its gonna take at least Blue Kaioken x10 to beat Kefura

[Asura]

Caulifa and Kale were awesome in today's episode. I really like them, and probably their fusion form too.

Finally we get kick ass lesbian female Super Saiyans. What sounded like nothing more than fanfiction a decade ago has become reality. What more can you possibly ask for?

Sounds like it's still fanfiction to me. Get rid of the lesbian part and you've got reality though.

Dunno why this keeps being said even after episodes air where Caulifla constantly refers to Kale as only a friend, and Kale completely acknowledges that too.

[Kataphrut]

Caulifa and Kale were awesome in today's episode. I really like them, and probably their fusion form too.

Finally we get kick ass lesbian female Super Saiyans. What sounded like nothing more than fanfiction a decade ago has become reality. What more can you possibly ask for?

Sounds like it's still fanfiction to me. Get rid of the lesbian part and you've got reality though.

Dunno why this keeps being said even after episodes air where Caulifla constantly refers to Kale as only a friend, and Kale completely acknowledges that too.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

[JulieYBM]

The subtext itself is a part of the fetish, too. It gives Otaku more room to posses these characters by further fictionalizing them in side stories.

[Faisal Shourov]

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

Females hold hands and kiss each other on the cheeks all the time. It's their way of showing friendship. Female friendship is very different from male friendship, you should watch some shoujo anime to understand it better.

[Asura]

Caulifa and Kale were awesome in today's episode. I really like them, and probably their fusion form too.

Finally we get kick ass lesbian female Super Saiyans. What sounded like nothing more than fanfiction a decade ago has become reality. What more can you possibly ask for?

Sounds like it's still fanfiction to me. Get rid of the lesbian part and you've got reality though.

Dunno why this keeps being said even after episodes air where Caulifla constantly refers to Kale as only a friend, and Kale completely acknowledges that too.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

So what you're saying is that it will never happen, but because you look too deep into shit that somehow means it's real, even though you just said it's never going to happen? And you just said it's a kids show, so holding hands must mean they're lesbians? I didn't realize hand holding was now such a clear indicator of homosexual love in a show made for kids.

The subtext itself is a part of the fetish, too. It gives Otaku more room to posses these characters by further fictionalizing them in side stories.

Oh of course, now it's the subtext lol. Just sounds like more layers of bullshit to me. You peel back one layer and lo and behold there's another one underneath trying to rationalize how it's totally true guys, lesbians in dragon ball!!!

You might as well open your sentences with "Okay, I know that nothing ever happened and nothing is ever shown at happening and there's proof that nothing ever will happen, but let me tell you why it's happening."

Until it's actually proven or confirmed in the show, it's about as valid as a tumblr fanship.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

Females hold hands and kiss each other on the cheeks all the time. It's their way of showing friendship. Female friendship is very different from male friendship, you should watch some shoujo anime to understand it better.

For real, some of you guys need to learn a little more about girls. Not every show of friendship and affection between girls means that they want to fuck each other.

[Faisal Shourov]

For real, some of you guys need to learn a little more about girls. Not every show of friendship and affection between girls means that they want to fuck each other.

Females have been physically intimate to display affection since forever, I am surprised some of the guys here are so ignorant about female behavior.

[Kataphrut]

Sounds like it's still fanfiction to me. Get rid of the lesbian part and you've got reality though.

Dunno why this keeps being said even after episodes air where Caulifla constantly refers to Kale as only a friend, and Kale completely acknowledges that too.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

So what you're saying is that it will never happen, but because you look too deep into shit that somehow means it's real, even though you just said it's never going to happen? And you just said it's a kids show, so holding hands must mean they're lesbians? I didn't realize hand holding was now such a clear indicator of homosexual love in a show made for kids.

Look too deep? Come on mate, you know exactly what's happening here. You wouldn't be getting this defensive about it if you didn't. And when I say it's never going to happen, I mean we will never get straight up explicit confirmation that they're gay (or rather, that Caulifla reciprocates and returns Kale's obvious affection in a meaningful way) because children's TV and Japanese children's TV especially still has a long way to go in normalising gay relationships. But that doesn't mean the writers and animators don't intend for people to read into the subtext, even if the text can never be too explicit.

Just let people enjoy it, you know?

[Jigurashi]

Caulifa and Kale were awesome in today's episode. I really like them, and probably their fusion form too.

Finally we get kick ass lesbian female Super Saiyans. What sounded like nothing more than fanfiction a decade ago has become reality. What more can you possibly ask for?

Why do people keep throwing the word fanfiction around? Also, Kale may have the hots for Caulifla, but it certainly doesn't look like Cauli feels that strong about Kale.

[pacz360]

Caulifa and Kale were awesome in today's episode. I really like them, and probably their fusion form too.

Finally we get kick ass lesbian female Super Saiyans. What sounded like nothing more than fanfiction a decade ago has become reality. What more can you possibly ask for?

Which neither of them are so

Caulifa and Kale were awesome in today's episode. I really like them, and probably their fusion form too.

Finally we get kick ass lesbian female Super Saiyans. What sounded like nothing more than fanfiction a decade ago has become reality. What more can you possibly ask for?

Sounds like it's still fanfiction to me. Get rid of the lesbian part and you've got reality though.

Dunno why this keeps being said even after episodes air where Caulifla constantly refers to Kale as only a friend, and Kale completely acknowledges that too.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

Holding hands equals gay!
Jesus are you serious?

[pacz360]

Sounds like it's still fanfiction to me. Get rid of the lesbian part and you've got reality though.

Dunno why this keeps being said even after episodes air where Caulifla constantly refers to Kale as only a friend, and Kale completely acknowledges that too.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

So what you're saying is that it will never happen, but because you look too deep into shit that somehow means it's real, even though you just said it's never going to happen? And you just said it's a kids show, so holding hands must mean they're lesbians? I didn't realize hand holding was now such a clear indicator of homosexual love in a show made for kids.

The subtext itself is a part of the fetish, too. It gives Otaku more room to posses these characters by further fictionalizing them in side stories.

Oh of course, now it's the subtext lol. Just sounds like more layers of bullshit to me. You peel back one layer and lo and behold there's another one underneath trying to rationalize how it's totally true guys, lesbians in dragon ball!!!

You might as well open your sentences with "Okay, I know that nothing ever happened and nothing is ever shown at happening and there's proof that nothing ever will happen, but let me tell you why it's happening."

Until it's actually proven or confirmed in the show, it's about as valid as a tumblr fanship.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

Females hold hands and kiss each other on the cheeks all the time. It's their way of showing friendship. Female friendship is very different from male friendship, you should watch some shoujo anime to understand it better.

For real, some of you guys need to learn a little more about girls. Not every show of friendship and affection between girls means that they want to fuck each other.

Exactly

[Kataphrut]

Sounds like it's still fanfiction to me. Get rid of the lesbian part and you've got reality though.

Dunno why this keeps being said even after episodes air where Caulifla constantly refers to Kale as only a friend, and Kale completely acknowledges that too.

It's never going to be shown as more than subtext because kids show. And because Japan. But come on. It's there. They spent half the episode fighting while holding hands, it could not be more blatant.

Holding hands equals gay!
Jesus are you serious?

Well, they're not going to start making out in the middle of the battle, that would be inefficient! They're still Saiyans after all
You're the second person to jump on my "holding hands" remark as if that was the shatterpoint upon which my entire insinuation hinged. It's just an example, there's plenty of others like it in the twenty-something episodes these characters have been around.

And I know the stuff I'm calling evidence of gay subtext is tropey as hell, but if people want to take that reading away from it, then why deny them?

This thread is about the popularity of Kale and Caulifla, but everyone has been kind of tiptoeing around the fact that having female Super Saiyans in a prominent role is good representation and a lot of female fans are finally getting it after all these years. We like to think we're above that, that talking about diversity and representation is for the Tumblr crowd. But looking over this thread, are any of the discussions about power scaling and relative screentime any less fatuous? And you know just maybe...just maybe, if we accept that having female representation is a good enough reason for a character's popularity, perhaps we can also accept that gay fans might appreciate the same courtesy?