Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

None of this makes any sense. Why the hell was Goku using blue if a SSJ form likely would have been just as effective previously and SSB burns stamina. Further why go into a stamina burning form and still get your head caved in for not using the power benefit of the stamina draining form. Like all the drawbacks and non of the benefits...

[Zamasu55]

So Dyspo refuses to face Final form Freeza.
Yet he was destroying Ssj God Goku.


Super.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think this all makes perfect sense, guys. Allow me to explain.

Where do you guys place the tournament's base Saiyans, and SSG and Potara in relation to them? The differences aren't as massive and unreachable as you might think.

Thanks to the manga, we can reasonably place the base Saiyans (besides Goten and Trunks, those lazy bums) above Shin. So, at a minimum, that's at least as strong as Cell. But wait! It's only 3 years from the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, and Shin isn't a particularly strong Kaioshin, either, and Goku was above even the rest; Goku's set to fight Uub in base form in a few years. Coupled with his and similar level fighters' bouts with beings like Gotenks and Slim Buu, we can reasonably place him, and in turn the other base Saiyans, at the level of Majin Buu.

As well, if Ultimate Gohan is anywhere approaching his dad's SSB power and the boost is the same proportional one as back in the Buu Arc, then that'd mean SSB can't be much more than a few dozen times stronger than SS3. Which would mean that SSG, being a lower form, is only a few times stronger at most. Which makes sense, since being a few hundred times to maybe a few thousand times stronger than Majin Buu sounds like a good boost from the previous series' highest level.

Vegetto was several hundreds of times stronger than the sum of his parts, possibly thousands. If SSG is only hundreds to maybe a few thousand of times stronger than the current base Saiyans, then a fusion between compatible individuals with a strong relationship like Kale and Caulifla would be more than capable of taking on a SSG. We have to remember that the gaps between forms probably aren't as massive as we think they are.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Dyspo would know about Golden Freeza since Freeza transformed twice into it and Freeza is nuts. Dyspo would stay away.

Both Vegeta and Toppo seems to be dicking around.

Goku's attack did nothing to Kale. The problem, Kale's attacks weaksauce, which we saw when Super Saiyan 2 Goku took no real damaged from Berserk Kale. She's like a RPG tank. High defense, low attack. So she is 'god level'.

In fact, that does not even make sense. It was never said that Kale had great resistance but low attack power. We're talking about her power, and her power (even bigger than on EP 100) did not even scratch Goku God. She just showed off punching Goku. Although she had not shown much damage, she was clearly inferior to Goku God.

It does when you considered that she tanked a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku's Kamehameha, yet she did almost no damaged to Super Saiyan 2 Goku. If your argument is that Goku scaled down his attack, what was the point of him even transforming past Super Saiyan 2?

She was mostly inferior in terms of fighting skill, while when Goku and her scuffled they were more or less even.

Goku said he would release A LITTLE more power after turning into Blue (a little more power than he was using in SSJ2).

So we can say that he was at most using a force greater than SSJ2, maybe SSJ3 level on that Kamehameha, but he used SSB because level 3 wasted too much energy (God had not even returned yet).

So Kale's controlled Berserker is above SSJ3, but below the worn Goku God (though she has traded punches with him)

[HeroR]

Goku said he would release A LITTLE more power after turning into Blue (a little more power than he was using in SSJ2).

So we can say that he was at most using a force greater than SSJ2, maybe SSJ3 level on that Kamehameha, but he used SSB because level 3 wasted too much energy (God had not even returned yet).

So Kale's controlled Berserker is above SSJ3, but below the worn Goku God (though she has traded punches with him)

A little to the point the point that may as well go Super Saiyan God and not Blue and he let someone just walk through his attack and grabbed him? So why go Blue? Using 'Super Saiyan God hasn't return yet' doesn't work Goku narrative always had it and Super Saiyan God being back was already planned by the script. And Super Saiyan God Goku didn't even hurt Kale. She didn't even have a mark on her despite Goku punching her in the face.

[Doctor.]

So Dyspo refuses to face Final form Freeza.
Yet he was destroying Ssj God Goku.


Super.

Makes sense to me, final form Freeza is at SSG's level. What's wrong?

[TheMikado]

Goku said he would release A LITTLE more power after turning into Blue (a little more power than he was using in SSJ2).

So we can say that he was at most using a force greater than SSJ2, maybe SSJ3 level on that Kamehameha, but he used SSB because level 3 wasted too much energy (God had not even returned yet).

So Kale's controlled Berserker is above SSJ3, but below the worn Goku God (though she has traded punches with him)

A little to the point the point that may as well go Super Saiyan God and not Blue and he let someone just walk through his attack and grabbed him? So why go Blue? Using 'Super Saiyan God hasn't return yet' doesn't work Goku narrative always had it and Super Saiyan God being back was already planned by the script. And Super Saiyan God Goku didn't even hurt Kale. She didn't even have a mark on her despite Goku punching her in the face.

The real reason this doesn’t make any sense is Goku would have had two more transformations between his SSJ2 & SSB which doesn’t drain stamina as bad. So the logic of why and how Goku uses the transformations is just thrown out the window in exchange for showing Kale take on SSB and succeed. It’s especially irritating because in universe maybe 2-5 minutes later he goes SSG rather than “low power” SSB so why use one rather than the other as it’s now completely arbitrary and non sensical.

[Arg]

Remembering how base copy vegeta easily dealt with gotenks just makes base kalfa dominating ssgod goku that much more disturbing.

[Noah]

Remembering how base Copy Vegeta easily dealt with Gotenks just makes base Kefla dominating SS God Goku that much more disturbing.

Not really, the first example you used was the worst in this whole series, I don't think we'll get anything that will top that. Also you shouldn't try to connect both scenes, avoid the headache.

[Marlowe89]

Thanks to the manga, we can reasonably place the base Saiyans (besides Goten and Trunks, those lazy bums) above Shin.

That doesn't particularly matter if you're talking about Super Saiyan God's strength, because the manga also confirmed just in the most recent chapter that SSG is supposed to be in a different league entirely than SS1-SS3. So there still should be an enormous gap between the two, even if you believe the current base Goku is significantly stronger than the base Goku in BoG.

The anime corroborates this as well. A fatigued, weakened Super Saiyan God Goku had a massive advantage against a Legendary Super Saiyan Kale at full power (who herself should be comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku at minimum, maybe even stronger) and Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla combined. This was the same form that also forced Jiren to start defending himself when the golden forms previously did absolutely nothing.

Trying to close the gap between the other forms and SSG doesn't really explain this away. It arguably makes more sense to just say that Goku was exhausted and that Potara fusion is absurdly powerful.

Makes sense to me, final form Freeza is at SSG's level. What's wrong?

Pretty much, and that's why I'm still sticking to the retcon interpretation personally. I firmly believe that base Goku vs. Frieza in RoF was fully intended to be a God tier fight.

[Yedis]

Remembering how base copy vegeta easily dealt with gotenks just makes base kalfa dominating ssgod goku that much more disturbing.

Base Cabba is near Base Vegeta (U6 Arc).

Kale and Caulifla are a lot closer to Goku and Vegeta in terms of power than Goten and Trunks are. I don't get the comparison. Because they both fused?

[TheMikado]

Remembering how base Copy Vegeta easily dealt with Gotenks just makes base Kefla dominating SS God Goku that much more disturbing.

Not really, the first example you used was the worst in this whole series, I don't think we'll get anything that will top that. Also you shouldn't try to connect both scenes, avoid the headache.

The problem is even ignoring “certain” scenes. New scenes get created. We keep saying ignore this and that as if it’s a problem that the series has moved past but it’s obvious it’s not. I’m not even processing the details of the intermediate form the only thing I’m trying to make sense of is Gokus max form vs Kales max form which is what we thought we got with SSB. But you can’t because we don’t know if he was holding back to SSJ3 levels or SSG levels which begs the question why go SSB in the first place. Everything about that encounter would have implied her Beserk form was at least stronger than SSG.

[Doctor.]

Pretty much, and that's why I'm still sticking to the retcon interpretation personally. I firmly believe that base Goku vs. Frieza in RoF was fully intended to be a God tier fight.

Toei is probably avoiding a fight between Goku and final form Freeza to avoid even more complications. If they ever fight again, I'm sure it'll be SSB/UI vs Golden Freeza.

If I had to guess, I'd say first form should be about even with Goku's Super Saiyan, second form with Super Saiyan 2 and so on.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku said he would release A LITTLE more power after turning into Blue (a little more power than he was using in SSJ2).

So we can say that he was at most using a force greater than SSJ2, maybe SSJ3 level on that Kamehameha, but he used SSB because level 3 wasted too much energy (God had not even returned yet).

So Kale's controlled Berserker is above SSJ3, but below the worn Goku God (though she has traded punches with him)

A little to the point the point that may as well go Super Saiyan God and not Blue and he let someone just walk through his attack and grabbed him? So why go Blue? Using 'Super Saiyan God hasn't return yet' doesn't work Goku narrative always had it and Super Saiyan God being back was already planned by the script. And Super Saiyan God Goku didn't even hurt Kale. She didn't even have a mark on her despite Goku punching her in the face.

Goku just hit an attack on Kale. Even Caulifla has withstood some punches from Goku God, so it is normal for Kale not to appear to suffer damage with only one attack.

The point is that Goku was dominating the fight, suffered no damage from any attacks by the two Saiyans and was still worn out. He was clearly superior to Kale (Shin still says he's far superior)

[HeroR]

Goku just hit an attack on Kale. Even Caulifla has withstood some punches from Goku God, so it is normal for Kale not to appear to suffer damage with only one attack.

The point is that Goku was dominating the fight, suffered no damage from any attacks by the two Saiyans and was still worn out. He was clearly superior to Kale (Shin still says he's far superior)

Cali was floored for several seconds grabbing her stomach after taking one direct hit from Super Saiyan God Goku, while Kale took one direct hit and was still fighting with almost no pause. So it isn't 'normal' when Goku could have done the same to Kale if he was indeed massively stronger than Kale.

Goku dominated, yes, but Kale was still very much in fighting shape unlike Cali. The fight ended when Cali went down since she's Kale's moral support. Skill-wise, Goku was superior, but overall power, neither Kale or Super Saiyan God Goku were hurting each other. Also, Goku can't be that tired if he can a) go and maintain Super Saiyan God and b) will apparently used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Kaioken next episode.

And since when does Shin's word mean much? He's the same person last week that said Goku was in trouble with Cali.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku just hit an attack on Kale. Even Caulifla has withstood some punches from Goku God, so it is normal for Kale not to appear to suffer damage with only one attack.

The point is that Goku was dominating the fight, suffered no damage from any attacks by the two Saiyans and was still worn out. He was clearly superior to Kale (Shin still says he's far superior)

Cali was floored for several seconds grabbing her stomach after taking one direct hit from Super Saiyan God Goku, while Kale took one direct hit and was still fighting with almost no pause. So it isn't 'normal' when Goku could have done the same to Kale if he was indeed massively stronger than Kale.

Goku dominated, yes, but Kale was still very much in fighting shape unlike Cali. The fight ended when Cali went down since she's Kale's moral support. Skill-wise, Goku was superior, but overall power, neither Kale or Super Saiyan God Goku were hurting each other. Also, Goku can't be that tired if he can a) go and maintain Super Saiyan God and b) will apparently used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Kaioken next episode.

And since when does Shin's word mean much? He's the same person last week that said Goku was in trouble with Cali.

it is obvious that Kale endured the battle against Goku God much better than Caulifla (who could barely stand). What I meant was that even she resisted a Goku punch without being disabled (as it was at the end of the EP). The same goes for Kale, who felt pain but was not defeated.

Goku God in this EP

-Have had no scratches after taking a Kale Ki Blast
- Stopped another Ki Blast from Kale with simple Ki Blast (Kale still had great difficulty reflecting).
"The two Saiyans did not hit him at all.
- He dominated the two with no problems.

Why do you become attached to the fact that Kale has continued standing after receiving ONLY a blow? This does not show that she has God's level. Although Shin normally talks nonsensical things, he explained what was happening, Goku showing himself far superior to the two Saiyans

[HeroR]

it is obvious that Kale endured the battle against Goku God much better than Caulifla (who could barely stand). What I meant was that even she resisted a Goku punch without being disabled (as it was at the end of the EP). The same goes for Kale, who felt pain but was not defeated.

Goku God in this EP

-Have had no scratches after taking a Kale Ki Blast
- Stopped another Ki Blast from Kale with simple Ki Blast (Kale still had great difficulty reflecting).
"The two Saiyans did not hit him at all.
- He dominated the two with no problems.

Why do you become attached to the fact that Kale has continued standing after receiving ONLY a blow? This does not show that she has God level. Although Shin normally talks nonsense, he explained what was happening, Goku showing himself much superior to the two Saiyans

It wasn't just her endurance was better. She took a hit from Super Saiyan God Goku and got no damaged. I mean, but the time they fused Kale looked as fresh as she did in 113. Goku mostly distract her from Cali so he could wiped her.

Kale still deflected it without too much issue and it seemed Goku just wanted to keep her away from Cali. Also, Cali did hit Super Saiyan God Goku. She tripped him, given Kale the chance to blast him.

He mostly dominated Cali who really was Kale's weakness after Super Saiyan God Goku came. Kale and Goku from the brief fight we seen with them were more or less even power-wise. Goku and Kale weren't hurting each other, but Goku was able to stall her thanks to his skillset.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Thanks to the manga, we can reasonably place the base Saiyans (besides Goten and Trunks, those lazy bums) above Shin.

That doesn't particularly matter if you're talking about Super Saiyan God's strength, because the manga also confirmed just in the most recent chapter that SSG is supposed to be in a different league entirely than SS1-SS3. So there still should be an enormous gap between the two, even if you believe the current base Goku is significantly stronger than the base Goku in BoG.

The anime corroborates this as well. A fatigued, weakened Super Saiyan God Goku had a massive advantage against a Legendary Super Saiyan Kale at full power (who herself should be comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku at minimum, maybe even stronger) and Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla combined. This was the same form that also forced Jiren to start defending himself when the golden forms previously did absolutely nothing.

Trying to close the gap between the other forms and SSG doesn't really explain this away. It arguably makes more sense to just say that Goku was exhausted and that Potara fusion is absurdly powerful.

SSG's power likely hasn't increased THAT MUCH since its initial introduction, much like how SSB isn't likely to be many tens of times stronger than its initial introduction.

As well, with my comments on Ultimate Gohan, the god forms can still be reasonably above the normal forms but also not be totally insurmountable, ESPECIALLY if we have super strong base Saiyans. For example, SS3 was considered very impressive by Caulifla and Kale, being able to easily no-sell Caulifla and Kale's attacks in its brief appearance in the tournament. SSG only has to be a few times stronger than that, and BOOM! It's still significantly above even Kale's controlled power, but can still be below a Potara fusion.

When it comes to god level, it appears as though small differences lead to greater results compared to lower levels of power, at least how I'm interpreting it.

We have to remember that Potara fusion is a massive boost, at minimum over 500 times stronger than equivalent base Saiyans like Goku and Vegeta and possibly reaching into up to 8000 times, given how easily SS Vegetto could trounce Buuhan and how well Jiren was doing in the Genkidama struggle against SSB/KKx20 Goku. SSG can still be thousands of times stronger than the Buu-level base Saiyans and still be inferior to a current Potara fusion.

Right now, I have SSG about 5-10 times stronger than SS3's 400 times multiplication of a Majin Buu level base form, significant but still only in the low thousands of times and easily surpassed by a Potara fusion of such Saiyans. The boost from base to SSG is smaller than it originally was, but not from base to Potara base.

[Triggered Vegeta]

So Base Vegito(DBS) >> Base Kefla > SSG(Top) >>> SSG(Bog) >> Vegito(Z & BoG) Interesting.

[Bullza]

People do seem to have an issue with the idea that Base Vegito would be stronger than Super Saiyan God but weren't people already saying that Base Vegito was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku going by what went on in the manga or something?

It would seem like this episode goes.

Base Kefla > Super Saiyan God Goku > True Legendary Super Saiyan Kale > Super Saiyan Berserk Kale > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Goku >= Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla

Makes sense to me, final form Freeza is at SSG's level. What's wrong?

Nah that couldn't be right or Frieza wouldn't have had to turn Golden against Super Saiyan 2 Cabba and waste energy.

It is kinda anyway though because as someone pointed out Dyspo was just fine to challenge Hit and was even winning for a large part of it but then saw Final Form Frieza and ran off. I'd like to think it was because he was referring to his Golden Frieza form for consistency.