Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

Each one of them solo Z in their base form with (maybe) the excepting of SS Vegetto.

Damn. Are they far off Vegito?

Like I told you earlier, everyone has a different interpretation.

I'm somewhat in agreement with ZombieVito here, maybe not quite as high but definitely nowhere near as weak as some other people would say. The base Saiyans in this tournament are quite strong for the most part.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Each one of them solo Z in their base form with (maybe) the excepting of SS Vegetto.

Damn. Are they far off Vegito?

Like I told you earlier, everyone has a different interpretation.

I'm somewhat in agreement with ZombieVito here, maybe not quite as high but definitely nowhere near as weak as some other people would say. The base Saiyans in this tournament are quite strong for the most part.

Personally, I think that they're somewhere between Namek 100% Freeza and Android 18. Same with the U7 Saiyans in base.

[ZombieVito]

Damn. Are they far off Vegito?

Like I told you earlier, everyone has a different interpretation.

I'm somewhat in agreement with ZombieVito here, maybe not quite as high but definitely nowhere near as weak as some other people would say. The base Saiyans in this tournament are quite strong for the most part.

Personally, I think that they're somewhere between Namek 100% Freeza and Android 18. Same with the U7 Saiyans in base.

Copy Vegeta disagrees with this. Hell, base Kafla beating a weakened SSG Goku lines up perfectly with how strong base Vegetto was in the Boo arc.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Like I told you earlier, everyone has a different interpretation.

I'm somewhat in agreement with ZombieVito here, maybe not quite as high but definitely nowhere near as weak as some other people would say. The base Saiyans in this tournament are quite strong for the most part.

Personally, I think that they're somewhere between Namek 100% Freeza and Android 18. Same with the U7 Saiyans in base.

Copy Vegeta disagrees with this. Hell, base Kafla beating a weakened SSG Goku lines up perfectly with how strong base Vegetto was in the Boo arc.

Saiyan Beyond God. Really, why'd you ask when you already know the answer I'll give?

[Marlowe89]

I'm with Saturnine, Doctor and LowRyder in regards to the base Saiyans' strength.

In any case, we're definitely going around in circles with this -- months and months of debating and there's still no resolution in sight because everyone has their own interpretations that they firmly stand by and have already provided their reasoning for those beliefs. I think it's time we all agree to disagree, since clearly this argument has gone absolutely nowhere from the moment it was first brought up as a topic.

[HeroR]

Personally, I think that they're somewhere between Namek 100% Freeza and Android 18. Same with the U7 Saiyans in base.

Copy Vegeta disagrees with this. Hell, base Kafla beating a weakened SSG Goku lines up perfectly with how strong base Vegetto was in the Boo arc.

Saiyan Beyond God. Really, why'd you ask when you already know the answer I'll give?

Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing. Goku and Vegeta don't have a second base form that is vastly stronger than their normal base. Especially when Goku went through all his forms in both the manga and anime and no one mentions his base form doing a vast jump in power.

[GodVegetto91]

Here's the thing, Potara Fusion can not be "Several tens of times stronger." Since Base Vegito is already pretty much confirmed to be significantly above SSJ3 Goku, which is a 400x multiplier. Therefore, we can say that a Potara Fusion provides a 400x + boost to the individual saiyan's Base power. It's simple math, it's simple logic. Anyone can understand that, even a 5 year old. I just don't understand how Toei somehow isn't able to consistently keep that line of thinking. It should be much simpler and way more ordered. Rather than it complicating things, it makes it easier!

SSJ1 = 50x Base
SSJ2 = 100x Base
SSJ3 = 400x Base

Base Gotenks was made out to be at least beyond a SSJ2 tier, hence the Fusion Dance is a 100x + multiplier over Base.

Base Vegito was stomping Buuhan in the anime, and another guidebook stated that he has surpassed a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Therefore, Potara Fusion = a 400x + multiplier over Base at the least!

I'm not using my opinions here, or subjective viewpoints guys, i'm merely presenting what the actual evidence of both the series and guidebooks are telling us. And now this whole situation with Kefla, where she is able to stomp Super Saiyan God Goku in her mere Base form no less, gives that even more credit!

That said, Super Saiyan God is supposed to be above ANY SSJ3 Fusion, including Potara's
Battle of Gods made that pretty clear. God ki is a whole different realm of power for the Saiyans, and nothing could even come close towards touching it.

[Bullza]

Here's the thing, Potara Fusion can not be "Several tens of times stronger."

I didn't get the impression Vados was referring to them being in the same form. I think she was just saying Kefla (even in Base form) was just tens of times stronger in general.

Tens of stronger than True Legendary Super Saiyan Kale or tens of stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla or tens of times stronger than the two of them together I don't know.

In other words Base Vegito would probably have also been tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta or both back in the Buu saga. Which would actually make sense going by the anime filler.

Was that actually kept in Kai? Base Vegito fighting Buuhan? If so that would make a lot more sense with where Toei would be coming from as opposed to any guidebook.

[GodVegetto91]

Here's the thing, Potara Fusion can not be "Several tens of times stronger."

I didn't get the impression Vados was referring to them being in the same form. I think she was just saying Kefla (even in Base form) was just tens of times stronger in general.

Tens of stronger than True Legendary Super Saiyan Kale or tens of stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla or tens of times stronger than the two of them together I don't know.

In other words Base Vegito would probably have also been tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta or both back in the Buu saga. Which would actually make sense going by the anime filler.

Was that actually kept in Kai? Base Vegito fighting Buuhan? If so that would make a lot more sense with where Toei would be coming from as opposed to any guidebook.

Yes they did keep that in Kai, which i appreciate greatly.

Well i do agree that Base Vegetto would be "Several tens of times" stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But keep in mind that they usually always fuse in Base Form. Base Goku and Vegeta became Base Vegetto (which we know was far greater than several tens of times). And now we saw a Base Kefla, which suggest both Kale and Caulifla powered down from their Super Saiyan forms to Base and then fused. Even so, it would be even more absurd. Since Base Kefla's actual performance was WAY beyond "several tens of times" their Base forms. Though i would agree with it being several tens of times controlled ssj berserk Kale.

[ssbgoku]

Facts from the anime about ssg goku and vegito(potara):
1. Ssg god goku > ssj vegito(possibly not 100% as he has never used fp against buuhan)
2. Beerus > Vegito , beerus > ssg goku

Fan assumptions:
1. Goku was comparing Vegito with heavily supressed beerus.
2. Goku was considering ss2 or even ss3 over potara power when he compared fusion to beerus
3. Goku could straight think when he was stomped beerus instead of being negative from fear.

For me the only problem with Kefla is that she should only match or even be little weaker then ssg as she turns in ssj. Ss2 keffla beating ssg goku I would be fine with it.

Just hope Goku will say he was heavily holding back like 1% and dropped his guard then release more power of ssg and beat down base Kafla forcing her to ssj. Then it can go either way.

And no I consider base vegitto filler. I have him around ultimate gohan or below. The problem is that potara doesnt have specific multiplayier which make it convienient to use by writers making fused character as strong as needed for story.

[Hugo Boss]

Here's the thing, Potara Fusion can not be "Several tens of times stronger."

I didn't get the impression Vados was referring to them being in the same form. I think she was just saying Kefla (even in Base form) was just tens of times stronger in general.

Tens of stronger than True Legendary Super Saiyan Kale or tens of stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla or tens of times stronger than the two of them together I don't know.

In other words Base Vegito would probably have also been tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta or both back in the Buu saga. Which would actually make sense going by the anime filler.

Was that actually kept in Kai? Base Vegito fighting Buuhan? If so that would make a lot more sense with where Toei would be coming from as opposed to any guidebook.

Yes they did keep that in Kai, which i appreciate greatly.

Well i do agree that Base Vegetto would be "Several tens of times" stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But keep in mind that they usually always fuse in Base Form. Base Goku and Vegeta became Base Vegetto (which we know was far greater than several tens of times). And now we saw a Base Kefla, which suggest both Kale and Caulifla powered down from their Super Saiyan forms to Base and then fused. Even so, it would be even more absurd. Since Base Kefla's actual performance was WAY beyond "several tens of times" their Base forms. Though i would agree with it being several tens of times controlled ssj berserk Kale.

When they say “tens of times” it doesn’t have to mean literally. I think this just comes as a reminder about how ridiculously powerful a fusion can be. So, they use a hyperbole.

[Saturnine]

When they say “tens of times” it doesn’t have to mean literally. I think this just comes as a reminder about how ridiculously powerful a fusion can be. So, they use a hyperbole.

Well too bad it's the opposite of a hyperbole, as Vegetto was like 500x stronger than Goku, or even more. Still, the nerfing of SSj God is probably even worse.

What I have concluded is that statements only hold true until disproven by feats or other statements, which basically means every saga has its own multipliers for everything.

6-10-15 was retconned. SSj Blue Goku and Vegeta having a chance against Beerus if fighting together was retconned. Saiyan Beyond God was retconned. SSj God being in a realm of its own, far above any non-divine fusion, was retconned.

We totally should treat every arc separately when doing power scaling. Having a continuous, consistent strength progression while maintaining the SEG multipliers is simply impossible.

[Shlugo]

Thinking about it, the only explanation I can come up with for the Kalfa thing that doesn't totally break the power scaling is that SSG no longer gives the huge boost it gave the first time, because Goku absorbed most of it's power into his normal form.


So:

SSG (BOG): base x 10 000

SSG (now) base x 500 or so

How strong are Caulifa, Kale and Cabba in their base forms? How do they compare to Z Namek Frieza? And what of their SSJ forms? How strong they in relation to Cell and Buu saga characters?

Mostly comparable to Goku and Vegeta, so they are above SSJ 3 Gotenks by significant margin. I'd put them around Buutenks level of power as of now.

[Saturnine]

Mostly comparable to Goku and Vegeta, so they are above SSJ 3 Gotenks by significant margin. I'd put them around Buutenks level of power as of now.

Copy Vegeta was portrayed as a "Saiyan beyond god" in that episode. This portrayal hasn't been consistent. You probably shouldn't take this at face value.

[Bullza]

Do you realise how ridiculously more powerful​ this makes Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku?

So Base Kefka is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Current Base Vegito we'll just say is equal to Base Kefla.

Super Saiyan 3 Vegito would then be enormously over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Super Saiyan God Vegito would then be multiple times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Vegito, could easily be tens of times,making him thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito would then be probably be multiple times as strong as that.

Beerus seems to be on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito. So he could easily be maybe tens of thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

That's a complete mess.

[HeroR]

Do you realise how ridiculously more powerful​ this makes Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku?

So Base Kefka is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Current Base Vegito we'll just say is equal to Base Kefla.

Super Saiyan 3 Vegito would then be enormously over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Super Saiyan God Vegito would then be multiple times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Vegito, could easily be tens of times,making him thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito would then be probably be multiple times as strong as that.

Beerus seems to be on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito. So he could easily be maybe tens of thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

That's a complete mess.

Not sure why this is still a thing since Beerus said himself that Super Saiyan God Goku was underwhelming.

[Hugo Boss]

When they say “tens of times” it doesn’t have to mean literally. I think this just comes as a reminder about how ridiculously powerful a fusion can be. So, they use a hyperbole.

Well too bad it's the opposite of a hyperbole, as Vegetto was like 500x stronger than Goku, or even more. Still, the nerfing of SSj God is probably even worse.

What I have concluded is that statements only hold true until disproven by feats or other statements, which basically means every saga has its own multipliers for everything.

6-10-15 was retconned. SSj Blue Goku and Vegeta having a chance against Beerus if fighting together was retconned. Saiyan Beyond God was retconned. SSj God being in a realm of its own, far above any non-divine fusion, was retconned.

We totally should treat every arc separately when doing power scaling. Having a continuous, consistent strength progression while maintaining the SEG multipliers is simply impossible.

Honestly, I don’t see why the writers would give an arbitrary figure like that to something they admittedly can’t quantify, as per Goku not seeing a limit to Kafla’s power. The same thing happened when Goku used SS2 in his first fight with Zamas.

Also, I don’t remember if we ever had a direct comparison between Potara and Super Saiyan God.

[Bullza]

Not sure why this is still a thing since Beerus said himself that Super Saiyan God Goku was underwhelming.

He also said that he briefly regretted seeking him out.

Going by what we know now. Beerus wouldn't have even need 0.1 of his power to royally stomp Super Saiyan God Goku. Kinda ruins the story entirely.

[HeroR]

Not sure why this is still a thing since Beerus said himself that Super Saiyan God Goku was underwhelming.

He also said that he briefly regretted seeking him out.

Going by what we know now. Beerus wouldn't have even need 0.1 of his power to royally stomp Super Saiyan God Goku. Kinda ruins the story entirely.

And Beerus was spit balling a lot since he was trying to get Goku to go all out. This is the same guy who claimed he was going all out.

It doesn't ruined the story since the story was that despite Goku's power-up, he couldn't beat Beerus and Beerus wasn't even at full power. The levels in which Beerus tried doesn't really matter.

[AvatarReiko]

Copy Vegeta disagrees with this. Hell, base Kafla beating a weakened SSG Goku lines up perfectly with how strong base Vegetto was in the Boo arc.

Saiyan Beyond God. Really, why'd you ask when you already know the answer I'll give?

Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing. Goku and Vegeta don't have a second base form that is vastly stronger than their normal base. Especially when Goku went through all his forms in both the manga and anime and no one mentions his base form doing a vast jump in power.

I thought "saiyan beyond god" was that powered up base state that Goku was using to fight Frieza in ROF? Or was that simply his normal base state? The movies seem to imply that he had god ki at the time but he never uses normal SSJ1 and/or 2. Man, I am confused

This is what I have in my head... SSJB Goku>>>SSJ God>>Powered Up/God Ki Base Goku(ROF)???>>>SSJ3>>>SSJ2>>>SSJ Goku>>>>Normal Base?