Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[AvatarReiko]

So why didn't Goku use normal SSJ forms at all during ROF? The movie seemed to imply that he had a godly base. I also remember Beerus specifically stating that he absorbed the god power into himself. Hence, how a normal SSJ Goku could fight Beerus, who previously 2 shotted his SSJ3 form with ease

Why would he? His base form alone was stronger than true form Freeza and when he went Blue after he told Freeza he was going all out and Freeza should do the same. In other words, playtime was over since Vegeta was getting impatient.

Also, he absorbed Super Saiyan God, but he his Super Saiyan form didn't have god ki since everyone sensed him. The Resurrection 'F' movie never implied that Goku's base form had god ki. Only that it was extremely powerful that it shocked his friends and Freeza.

But Beerus still states that he absorbed god's power into himself. How else do you explain him fighting with Beerus in normal SSJ?

[ekrolo2]

Well Goku did say something about Super Saiyan Blue having proper Ki control when he first turned Super Saiyan. It was obviously something he couldn't do with his other forms so there was a difference.

We saw when Goku fought Arale and he was Super Saiyan Blue that he fired one Kamehameha and then prepared to fire another that was 100 times stronger so he can suppress his power all the way down to 1%.

I'm not sure if he can do the same with the other forms at least to that extent.

SS1 did after mastery but that's been retconned away to make Blue look better.

I'm pretty sure the original SS form's only real mastery of mention was its stamina. Sure, that meant better control over Ki, but more in the sense that you can use it efficiently without it all draining away in battle.

SSB's Ki control is something else entirely, along with its calm heart, that allows it to be used with an intensely stressful technique like Kaio-ken in a way that regular SS can't despite its better stamina. I think I remember one part of the explanation being that SS has a wild and untamed Ki and brings about intensity in the heart despite how it doesn't hit the user's body as badly as SSB.

That's just bull Super has said to prop up Blue, regular SS let Goku and Gohan be perfectly relaxed in normal, every day things on top of letting him use it with the Spirit Bomb, now it's apparently too malicious for either of that stuff.

This wouldn't bother me if a form worth a toss was getting praised like UI, Blue's just SS but blue with one bang lower.

Its like if the Bond franchise spent all this time showing Bond as the ultimate spy only for an identical guy in every way called Bames Jond being better because he's the hot new item.

[HeroR]

But Beerus still states that he absorbed god's power into himself. How else do you explain him fighting with Beerus in normal SSJ?

He absorbed the power than just became normal ki, not god ki. This was made in the movie of Battle of Gods where Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, fought Beerus in his base form and Super Saiyan form without noticing a power different, and then getting Super Saiyan God again at the end. In the retelling, Goku lost Super Saiyan God, everyone felt his ki, Whis specifically states that Goku isn't a god anymore, yet Goku fights Beerus with even more power as a Super Saiyan and destroys Beerus' planet buster in his base form.

[AvatarReiko]

But Beerus still states that he absorbed god's power into himself. How else do you explain him fighting with Beerus in normal SSJ?

He absorbed the power than just became normal ki, not god ki. This was made in the movie of Battle of Gods where Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, fought Beerus in his base form and Super Saiyan form without noticing a power different, and then getting Super Saiyan God again at the end. In the retelling, Goku lost Super Saiyan God, everyone felt his ki, Whis specifically states that Goku isn't a god anymore, yet Goku fights Beerus with even more power as a Super Saiyan and destroys Beerus' planet buster in his base form.

So let me get this straight. Goku absorbed SSJG's power but not the Ki. Some of that power stayed with him and ultimately powered up his base form(and SSJs forms) to a point way above SSJ3 Gotenks level. Though this does not really explain how Vegeta's base got so powerful or how he achieved Blue. I guess we just assume that he also did the ritual?

[Lord Beerus]

But Beerus still states that he absorbed god's power into himself. How else do you explain him fighting with Beerus in normal SSJ?

He absorbed the power than just became normal ki, not god ki. This was made in the movie of Battle of Gods where Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, fought Beerus in his base form and Super Saiyan form without noticing a power different, and then getting Super Saiyan God again at the end. In the retelling, Goku lost Super Saiyan God, everyone felt his ki, Whis specifically states that Goku isn't a god anymore, yet Goku fights Beerus with even more power as a Super Saiyan and destroys Beerus' planet buster in his base form.

So let me get this straight. Goku absorbed SSJG's power but not the Ki. Some of that power stayed with him and ultimately powered up his base form(and SSJs forms) to a point way above SSJ3 Gotenks level. Though this does not really explain how Vegeta's base got so powerful or how he achieved Blue. I guess we just assume that he also did the ritual?

Vegeta's base form got so powerful because he spent more than 6 months under the tutelage of a man who taught a Hakaishin very he know about martial arts. I mean,wh wouldn't Vegeta get so much power when training with a guy like Whs for that extended period ot time. And Goku later states in Episode 27 that Vegeta basically obtained the power of Super Saiyan God on his own. Pretty much implying that Vegeta brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God in the additional four months he trained with Goku and Whis.

[brett wheeler]

But Beerus still states that he absorbed god's power into himself. How else do you explain him fighting with Beerus in normal SSJ?

He absorbed the power than just became normal ki, not god ki. This was made in the movie of Battle of Gods where Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, fought Beerus in his base form and Super Saiyan form without noticing a power different, and then getting Super Saiyan God again at the end. In the retelling, Goku lost Super Saiyan God, everyone felt his ki, Whis specifically states that Goku isn't a god anymore, yet Goku fights Beerus with even more power as a Super Saiyan and destroys Beerus' planet buster in his base form.

So let me get this straight. Goku absorbed SSJG's power but not the Ki. Some of that power stayed with him and ultimately powered up his base form(and SSJs forms) to a point way above SSJ3 Gotenks level. Though this does not really explain how Vegeta's base got so powerful or how he achieved Blue. I guess we just assume that he also did the ritual?

Well based on quotes from goku, and others, vegeta got the power of ssg without any bodies help, in specifically he got the power of ssg without the ritual all on his own, witch in my opinion is a hell of a impressive feat.

[ChiefWamsutta]

But Beerus still states that he absorbed god's power into himself. How else do you explain him fighting with Beerus in normal SSJ?

He absorbed the power than just became normal ki, not god ki. This was made in the movie of Battle of Gods where Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, fought Beerus in his base form and Super Saiyan form without noticing a power different, and then getting Super Saiyan God again at the end. In the retelling, Goku lost Super Saiyan God, everyone felt his ki, Whis specifically states that Goku isn't a god anymore, yet Goku fights Beerus with even more power as a Super Saiyan and destroys Beerus' planet buster in his base form.

So let me get this straight. Goku absorbed SSJG's power but not the Ki. Some of that power stayed with him and ultimately powered up his base form(and SSJs forms) to a point way above SSJ3 Gotenks level. Though this does not really explain how Vegeta's base got so powerful or how he achieved Blue. I guess we just assume that he also did the ritual?

The following is just an idea, my own headcanon on the subject, but I think it works well:

I tried to merge some concept of Goku's strong Base form, strong SS1 form from Ep. 14, SSGod, and SSBlue. I thought that when Goku lost SSGod, he gained a "Godly Base Form" and "Godly Super Saiyan Form", per say. So, after the Battle of Gods, he had Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Godly Base/Godly SS1. This is what we saw when he was fighting Beerus in Ep. 14 and stopping the sun ball that would destroy earth.

Then when training with Whis, he learns of perfect ki control (which is god ki). Goku easily learns to perfect his ki in the Godly SS1 form. It came easier because of his training with SS1 Grade 4 in the Cell Saga. Once Goku achieved perfect ki control over Godly SS1, it resulted in SSBlue.

Goku then has Godly Base form for a while (against RoF Frieza, Copy-Vegeta, etc.). Perfecting ki control in Base form is not as easy for him to do, but once he does, this Godly Base turns into SSGod. That's why we see the re-emergence of SSGod so close to the introduction of Ultra Instinct (Self-Movement). Goku was incorporating a lot of what Whis taught him during the Tournament of Power. This can also apply to Vegeta too. He probably obtained SSGod without five other Saiyans, and then after the time limit got "Godly Base" and "Godly SS1". At this point Vegeta has only perfected ki control in Godly SS1, resulting in SSBlue.

[BlueVegerot]

The easier explanation to me is that the ssg aborbed thing was retconned after RoF because they couldn't tell a story that way in terms of goku and vegeta just being WAY WAY ahead of almost anyone they would fight plus toriyama loving the ssg form and wanting it back

[Miracles]

"It appears your Super Saiyan god powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather the power completely fused within your very being. The god's red brilliance...is still burning brightly in you like a flame."~Beerus Episode 13.

"You scrape together the power of five Saiyans...and get a patchwork-like Super Saiyan god. You made it your own and perfected it..." ~ Beerus Episode 14.

"Apparently, you haven't realized it, yourself. Your Super Saiyan god time ran out a good while ago. It seems as though while you had turned god and were fighting me, you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why, even though you've returned to normal, you haven't powered down all that much. You're something else."~Beerus BOG.

So, Goku has the powers of god in his body, which powered up his base and Super Saiyan modes but they are still a "powered down" version of Red.
Therefore his base has no godly presence like red and blue as evidence in the anime. People can still sense his normal state.
Even in the manga, the gods comment on Goku's godly presence when he goes red. They don't say the same for his other modes.

[dragon boss z]

"It appears your Super Saiyan god powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather the power completely fused within your very being. The god's red brilliance...is still burning brightly in you like a flame."~Beerus Episode 13.

"You scrape together the power of five Saiyans...and get a patchwork-like Super Saiyan god. You made it your own and perfected it..." ~ Beerus Episode 14.

"Apparently, you haven't realized it, yourself. Your Super Saiyan god time ran out a good while ago. It seems as though while you had turned god and were fighting me, you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why, even though you've returned to normal, you haven't powered down all that much. You're something else."~Beerus BOG.

So, Goku has the powers of god in his body, which powered up his base and Super Saiyan modes but they are still a "powered down" version of Red.
Therefore his base has no godly presence like red and blue as evidence in the anime. People can still sense his normal state.
Even in the manga, the gods comment on Goku's godly presence when he goes red. They don't say the same for his other modes.

Pretty much this. Absorbing the god power made him much stronger, but not the exact same strength as god, at least not unless he goes full power. It would be nonsensical that as soon as Goku lost SSG his ssj was permanently equal with ssg and his ssj3 was 8x SSG. That means the second he lost SSG he became 8x stronger, which doesn't really make sense and he would of went ssj3 if he thought that was the case.

[Bullza]

Going by what we now.

It would seem that Goku was only as strong as Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan during that fight with Beerus only because the power continued to burn through him even after the form itself faded away.

After the fight ended and Goku had used up all that power, he lost access to the form but because that power was still dormant inside him and it was a part of him, it permanently powered up his Base form massively so, equal to what Vegeta had obtained through training.

Then after he went into that other dimension through Whis' staff he learned how to access all of that power once again but this time on his own. He then combined it with Super Saiyan and he became a Super Saiyan Blue just before fighting Frieza.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Going by what we now.

It would seem that Goku was only as strong as Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan during that fight with Beerus only because the power continued to burn through him even after the form itself faded away.

After the fight ended and Goku had used up all that power, he lost access to the form but because that power was still dormant inside him and it was a part of him, it permanently powered up his Base form massively so, equal to what Vegeta had obtained through training.

Then after he went into that other dimension through Whis' staff he learned how to access all of that power once again but this time on his own. He then combined it with Super Saiyan and he became a Super Saiyan Blue just before fighting Frieza.

And now he can hold back a bunch of his power in base in order to use the yellow Super Saiyan forms again, without Super Saiyan 1 turning into Super Saiyan Blue.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Going by what we now.

It would seem that Goku was only as strong as Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan during that fight with Beerus only because the power continued to burn through him even after the form itself faded away.

After the fight ended and Goku had used up all that power, he lost access to the form but because that power was still dormant inside him and it was a part of him, it permanently powered up his Base form massively so, equal to what Vegeta had obtained through training.

Then after he went into that other dimension through Whis' staff he learned how to access all of that power once again but this time on his own. He then combined it with Super Saiyan and he became a Super Saiyan Blue just before fighting Frieza.

And now he can hold back a bunch of his power in base in order to use the yellow Super Saiyan forms again, without Super Saiyan 1 turning into Super Saiyan Blue.

See, I like this idea, but it seems to convoluted to me. I think it's easier to believe because of using Base and SS1 right before turning SSGod with the ritual, those two forms got a huge boost. Then he uses ki control to modify the Godly SS1 to become SSBlue and the Godly Base to become SSGod.

[shadowmaria]

I don't pay attention to this thread because, honestly; strength debates annoy me - I'm just here for the story

But what was the general consensus of base Kefla being able to beat down a (tired) Super Saiyan God Goku?

[brett wheeler]

A lot of you really over estemate toriyama story writing ability, db/z/super are cool and all but very simplictic, I say what toriyama intended was for goku to absorb god and make it his own ( obviously beerus even said as such), and since later bog we see goku turns ssg agian its pretty safe to assume base, ssj, and ssg all had different powers even after absorbing ssg, so goku would then be base( post initial god form ), ssj, ssj2, ssj3, ssg, and ssb, the initial ssg was probably so strong due to it involving 4 saiyans the new ssg he can use upon accessing his own god Ki is probably no where near as strong a multiplier,my prediction is ssg is 1000×current base with ssb being a variable between 5-10× that, ad to the next question how does piccolo, Kuririn,ect even keep up with goku or vegeta then, well first of all it has already been stated by toie that goku held back, but even if he didn't its would just be plot in witch case there is no real reason for it its just making characters relavent, dumb and poor writing, yes, necessary at times, yes, goku's friends had to compete in this tournament where the woriors could match at least base goku giving characters boost to let them compete is necassary, sorry to say but that's probably closer to the truth than a lot of what where coming up with.

[brett wheeler]

I don't pay attention to this thread because, honestly; strength debates annoy me - I'm just here for the story

But what was the general consensus of base Kefla being able to beat down a (tired) Super Saiyan God Goku?

There isn't one yet we just agree he was tired.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

I don't pay attention to this thread because, honestly; strength debates annoy me - I'm just here for the story

But what was the general consensus of base Kefla being able to beat down a (tired) Super Saiyan God Goku?

There isn't one yet we just agree he was tired.

Mostly just waiting for next episode to address her massive power.

[ZombieVito]

Going by what we now.

It would seem that Goku was only as strong as Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan during that fight with Beerus only because the power continued to burn through him even after the form itself faded away.

After the fight ended and Goku had used up all that power, he lost access to the form but because that power was still dormant inside him and it was a part of him, it permanently powered up his Base form massively so, equal to what Vegeta had obtained through training.

Then after he went into that other dimension through Whis' staff he learned how to access all of that power once again but this time on his own. He then combined it with Super Saiyan and he became a Super Saiyan Blue just before fighting Frieza.

I agree with this.

I also think the difference between SS3 and SSG isn't that big. If we take the anime's word about Rose being Black's Super Saiyan form then it should be a 50 times boost, take that and combine it with the manga and SSG should be 10 times stronger than SS3 and SSB should be 5 times stronger than SSG.

It's probably more but that's what I'm inclining to believe right now.

[Lord Beerus]

More translations from Herms about Episode 116:

- Kalfa, although it isn't determined whether she's powered up or not, seem to have the strength to push back SSJB Goku. Interestingly enough, there is no mention of Goku using Kaioken on top. Perhaps he's still too tired to stack that on top of SSJB? We'll have to wait and see.
- Goku seems to tap into Ultra Instinct spontaneously.
- Kalfa can't seem to handle Ultra Instinct Goku, and Goku turns the tide of the battle with the form
- Jiren notices Goku's power as Ultra Instinct and seems to get involved. Goku vs Jiren Part 2 may be on cards.

[buutenks]

Seems the controlled berserk form is god tier. Although it is very low, lower than ssg.