Kaioken attack question

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:40 pm

Hi,

I am wondering: I always read, that Kaioken x2 doubles the user's strength, x3 triples it and so on.

If this is true, what does a Kaioken x1 do then?
Does it even exist? I mean, x2 indicates that there is x1 as well, doesn't it?

Does anyone have a clue?

mister yummy · Post by **mister yummy** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:46 pm

Kioken doubles the user's Fighting Power, according the Daizenshuu. The double kioken would seem redundant in that case. I've always thought that the Kaioken doesn't fully double the user's fighting power, or that the Double Kaioken more than doubles it, but not quite tripples it.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:57 pm

I figure it's one of two things:

1. "Basic Kaioken" and "Kaioken x2" are the same.

2. "Basic Kaioken" is like KKx1.25 or 1.5 or something.

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:15 pm

Considering that when Gokuu simply utters "Kaiou-ken" during his display of power to Ginyu, that his power level doubled (since you could tell by the numbers being read off that it was more than a 1.25x boost), it seems absolutely certain that it's a two fold boost. As such, there's really no reason to go to the trouble of addressing it as the 2x Kaiou-ken (and I chalk up Gokuu using "both" in the Saiya-jin Saga as being a simple mistake on Toriyama's part)

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm

As I see it, you can use the Kaioken to multiply your power by any factor that your body can handle (in Saiyan saga Goku's case, this was four times, tops). I don't believe the Kaioken is bound to natural numbers; it can be used to any factor in between.

To answer your question: Goku mostly states the factor at which he performs Kaioken, but when he doesn't you'd have to look at power levels to determine the factor that was used. In most cases, just "Kaioken" was two times.

A Kaioken x1 would be rather useless, a Kaioken x0.5 plain stupid and Kaioken x0 would be suicide. I wouldn't know what happens when Goku does a Kaioken x-2... but oh well

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:34 pm

Kaio-Ken ^2?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:00 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Kaio-Ken ^2?

Kaioken xΠ. Goku powers up forever.

It still takes less time than the Freeza fight, though.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:51 pm

KK and KKx2 are the same thing.

Both variations double the amount of ki in Goku's body. The evidence can be seen when we compare Goku's base to Vegeta's base during the Saiyan arc.
Goku's base was only around 8,500 ("It's over ninnne thooouuusand!" is ironically a dub mistake). Vegeta's base was 18,000: the reason we know that KK and KKx2 are the same is because Goku had to increase to KKx3 to surpass Vegeta's level of 18,000.
If Kaioken x2 was different then regular Kaioken, then Goku's increase for KKx2 would be to 25,500 (17,000 (KK) + another 8,500 (KKx2)), but it obviously isn't because Vegeta's base is not 25,500+, it's only 18,000.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:02 pm

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:If Kaioken x2 was different then regular Kaioken, then Goku's increase for KKx2 would be to 25,500 (17,000 (KK) + another 8,500 (KKx2)), but it obviously isn't because Vegeta's base is not 25,500+, it's only 18,000.

It... huh?

If KKx2 is different from regular KK, Goku would still go to 17,000-ish. Kaioken doesn't add to itself, it multiplies your base power.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:13 am

Rocketman wrote:
DemonKingPiccolo wrote:If Kaioken x2 was different then regular Kaioken, then Goku's increase for KKx2 would be to 25,500 (17,000 (KK) + another 8,500 (KKx2)), but it obviously isn't because Vegeta's base is not 25,500+, it's only 18,000.
It... huh?

If KKx2 is different from regular KK, Goku would still go to 17,000-ish. Kaioken doesn't add to itself, it multiplies your base power.

He's not saying it adds to itself, he's using that as a break down of the math. 8,500 base + KK = 17,000. Double the power of the Kaio Ken and you'd get 25,500.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:24 pm

Rocketman wrote:
DemonKingPiccolo wrote:If Kaioken x2 was different then regular Kaioken, then Goku's increase for KKx2 would be to 25,500 (17,000 (KK) + another 8,500 (KKx2)), but it obviously isn't because Vegeta's base is not 25,500+, it's only 18,000.
It... huh?

If KKx2 is different from regular KK, Goku would still go to 17,000-ish. Kaioken doesn't add to itself, it multiplies your base power.

I know that, that's actually what I was explaining at the begining of my post.
By doing the math to get the 25,500 number, I was explaining what it KK2 wasn't. The reason why I was doing this is because quite a few people believe that the KK and KK2 are different, and they don't know that they're the same.

A rough sum up of Kaioken12's original question was "what is the difference between Kaioken and Kaioken x2?" and a rough sum up of that very confusing post of mine is "there is no difference, it's the same thing."

The S · Post by **The S** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:26 pm

Rocketman wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Kaio-Ken ^2?
Kaioken xΠ. Goku powers up forever.

It still takes less time than the Freeza fight, though.

Mmm... Π

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:42 pm

Narrator: "Vegeta's strength far surpassed Goku's expectations...! Not even doubling his strength through the Kaio-ken was enough to stop the Saiya-jin...Now what will he do?"

That was before Goku ever mentioned "two fold"/"times two" when using the Kaio-ken.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:42 pm

Tyro, which episode slash translation is that from? I have the Steve Simmons translation of the recap at the beginning of episode 31 in front of me. It says:

"A times-two level Kaiou-ken was no use against the mighty warrior Vegeta. Ultimately, Goku dared to risk his life by taking upon himself a times-three Kaiou-ken."

And all that was said at the tail end of the previous episode was:

"Ignoring Kaiou's warning, Goku uses a times-three Kaiou-ken. Will Goku's body be able to withstand a battle power ("power level") beyond its limits?"

It's clear that Goku had already used the alleged "times-two" Kaiou-ken at the time of the re-cap (remember, he was trying to dodge Vegeta's fireball or something, and it burned through his shirt), had just finished reaching a times-three Kaiou-ken, and was presently leaping through the air, shouting, "May my body withstand this! Times-three Kaiou-ken!"

I'm not trying to bash you or anything Tyro, but I encourage you to go back and watch episode 30. Or enlighten me. Whichever comes easiest.

Of interest: A times-three Kaiou-ken is "beyond [Goku's] limits". but a times-two Kaiou-ken isn't? This interests me. It seems to imply that a character's "limit" is not the same as his "base". A limit is indeed twice the base.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:11 pm

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:Tyro, which episode slash translation is that from? I have the Steve Simmons translation of the recap at the beginning of episode 31 in front of me. It says:

That was from the manga. Dragonball, volume 20/Dragonball Z, volume 4, page 8. Viz translations, so from Japanese to English.

Again, this was stated by the narrator after Goku had used the Kaio-ken twice, once against Nappa and once against Vegeta, and both times he fails to mention anything besides "Kaio-ken".

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:(remember, he was trying to dodge Vegeta's fireball or something, and it burned through his shirt)

Yes, but the quote I mentioned came before that.

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:I'm not trying to bash you or anything Tyro, but I encourage you to go back and watch episode 30. Or enlighten me. Whichever comes easiest.

It's no problem. I don't actually watch the anime, so I wouldn't have went out of my way to find reliable subs on the Internet or the dub, which I don't own nor do I want to. I'm strictly a manga purist. Hopefully what I mentioned above sheds some light on my opinion?

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:29 am

Ohhh, gotcha. Why didn't I consider that?

Well, in any case, Mr. Narrator noted that the standard Kaiou-ken doubled Goku's strength, that's the important part. The way I see it, this cements the notion that "times-one Kaiou-ken" and "times-two Kaiou-ken" are the same thing (don't most people think it multiplies your power by 1.5 or something the first time?), though I'm not sure what your original opinion was on this and I might just be re-stating the obvious.

There is SOMETHING that could be considered a "times-one Kaiou-ken", however. It's that pure white aura that Kaiou-sama can reach when he's teaching Goku how to use the technique. It's basically putting the user at the top of his natural power, whereas Kaiou-ken x2 actually doubles it. So it's conditioning. You should power up to your maximum first (like Goku did), before doubling it to your limit. Anything above twice your maximum is beyond your limit and has detrimental effects on your body.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:40 am

Goku eventually uses Kaioken x20, so the maximum allowable Kaioken can be increased with training. At first, Goku's limit was x2, but as he went above that limit with x3 and x4, he began to deepen the limit to Kaioken until he reaches x20 (said to be the final Kaioken).

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:21 am

Thanks for all your answers.
What confused me is the thing that every dub/sub I know uses something like "double kaioken" or "kaioken times two" and so on.

So I thought, if this always is Kaioken times TWO, there has to be a times ONE somehow.

x2 seems to double strength (if you look at Vegeta fight where Goku has 8.000 then presumably ~16.000 (x2) and after that something around 24.000 (x3)).

Or is there something in the name?
I heard before that kaioken means something like "kaio fist", so perhaps times two just indicates that the kaio fist is used to double one's strength...

About x20 Kaioken:
I'm not sure if this is the maximum.
We actually never see Goku (manga) use it again after he can transform to SSJ, so can we really know if he couldn't have learned perhaps x30 for example?
I think, he just stopped to train kaioken as SSJ was simply the better choice and not as dangerous - he still got stronger and his body got more resistant - so a greater kaioken doesn't seem to be impossible.
(Or does it? I really don't know)

Luffy · Post by **Luffy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:01 pm

But will his power double even as ssj?
Because if he is ssj3 and then double the power of a ssj3 it would be pretty nice.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:02 pm

My guess is that there is a maximum Kaioken and Goku kind of mastered it, making its power part of his base energy level. So when Goku's base previously was at, say, 3,000,000, (that's five comma's!) he's always at 20 times that because of the Kaioken.
This means that Goku mastered the Kaioken in such a way that the red aura and the danger to his body are gone. It's just a thought, but I think this little theory fits the idea of Goku moving on 'beyond' the Kaioken technique. During the fight against Freeza (pre-SSj), Tenshinhan notes that Goku was still able to use Kaioken. Kaio-sama then informs him that Goku's already using it.