Tired SSj Blue Goku was matching blows with Kefla, and with Kaioken, he actually overwhelmed her and damaged her seriously in a single blow. She only won due to him being distracted by the explosion and getting a powerful kick in, to his head no less. That's gotta hurt. The way I see it:
Tired Blue KK Goku > SSj Blue Goku > Tired SSj Blue Goku = True SSj Kefla > Base Kefla > Tired SSj God Goku > True SSj Kale > Berserker Kale
Anyway, we now see just how much more powerful SSj Blue Goku is than Berserker Kale. They literally can't be compared. "Goku was not going out in blue against Kale" - not so funny now, is it?
Last edited by Saturnine on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm gonna say the latter, honestly. Champa explicitly clarified on two separate occasions that Kefla had an advantage against Goku because he was short on stamina, once as a Super Saiyan God and again as a Super Saiyan Blue. Vados herself even doubted that Kefla could stand up to Blue until Champa made the second comment about Goku lacking stamina.
Now I'm pretty confident that Goku was only losing because he was exhausted.
Then I don't understand why they don't just say that. Even the Manga clarified that one between tired Vegeta Blue and Goku God. So it's not like Super has never said it before in some form. Though don't buy into the tired thing as much when they keep on going up and up on forms despite supposedly low on stamina, which is just silly. Ample time to just have it be everyone covering Goku to recover, so they feel more important. But instead Goku is just awesome cause....
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
TheMikado wrote:The only thing that I care about is whether UI is a strength based form or not.
For the record I really hate the name of that form.
It quite clearly is. If I'm not mistaken, judging from some of your previous posts in some threads, you consider this a mental state more than anything - the body reacting on its own to threats without the need for conscious thought. But it's much more than that - it's the only way of overcoming the current wall of progress established in the narrative by Whis all the way back in RoF.
The issue here is that the speed of brain impulses making the body move only begins being an issue at a certain threshold of prowess, because that speed is pretty much the speed of light. How much time does light need to travel say, one meter (the approximate distance from the brain to the fist?). 3.335640952 x 10^-9 seconds, to be exact. That pretty much means you can't make your body initiate moves faster than that (though it doesn't necessarily affect the speed of those moves, so superluminal is still most likely possible). In other words, as long as you think about every move consciously, you won't be able to say, throw two consecutive punches in a shorter timeframe than 3.335640952 x 10^-9 seconds. That's where the Ultra Instinct comes in - by eliminating the need for thinking, the speed of your reactions is no longer restricted by the speed of the electrons travelling throughout your nervous system - in other words your body is not held back by your brain. That way you're not only faster than before, but also able to evade any incoming attack or projectile relying only on instinct - eliminating any need for conscious thought. But whether you do or do not possess Ultra Instinct doesn't appear to be the only factor that determines your strength, since it's clearly possible to progress beyond Goku's current UI level (the Angels are faster still). Anyway, the Ultra Instinct as portrayed with Goku (a transformation) definitely does make him much faster and stronger than any of his previous forms.
dbzfan7 wrote:Then I don't understand why they don't just say that.
Well, they pretty much did -- in this episode anyway. I feel like they could have specified this in the previous episode as well, but you literally have Champa directly stating that Kefla can beat SSG Goku because he's short on stamina which is about as direct as you can possibly get here. I'm honestly not sure how else they could have phrased that. Again, later on, even Vados was confident that SSB Goku posed a serious threat to Super Saiyan Kefla until Champa commented on Goku's exhaustion again and further suggested that this factor evened the odds between the two.
This makes perfect sense, considering the fact that BoG implied that form to provide an even greater boost than Potara. So frankly, there's already a clear precedent not to buy into this notion that Kefla is (necessarily) stronger than Goku as a fresh Super Saiyan God at full power, at least when it comes to her base form.
Saturnine wrote:Tired SSj Blue Goku was matching blows with Kefla, and with Kaioken, he actually overwhelmed her and damaged her seriously in a single blow. She only won due to him being distracted by the explosion and getting a powerful kick in, to his head no less. That's gotta hurt. The way I see it:
Tired Blue KK Goku > SSj Blue Goku > Tired SSj Blue Goku = True SSj Kefla > Base Kefla > Tired SSj God Goku > True SSj Kale > Berserker Kale
Anyway, we now see just how much more powerful SSj Blue Goku is than Berserker Kale. They literally can't be compared. "Goku was not going out in blue against Kale" - not so funny now, is it?
I think you are right and wonder how Kefla will handle Ultra Instinct Goku.
Majinwarman So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
So SSB is 50 times that of God??? Also, Kefla was lucky Goku wasn't fresh and one shot her with a x10 Or x20 on top of blue. Next episode she's gonna get it.
So Kefla is still below Super Saiyan God Goku in power. The people having mental breakdowns last week can rest easy. Goku is also tired and not at full strength either, so he would have knocked out Kefla even easier.
Triggered Vegeta wrote:So SSB is 50 times that of God??? Also, Kefla was lucky Goku wasn't fresh and one shot her with a x10 Or x20 on top of blue. Next episode she's gonna get it.
If that’s true than SSBx20xKK is 200000% stronger than SSG.... umm ok
Where are people getting the idea that gokus forms are weaker than they should be?
He wasn't weaker as an ssj2. His forms aren't stated to be weaker. His stamina in reference to how the show talks about it is only affecting how long he can maintain his power, but it isn't weaker than it would usually be.
Just wanted to weigh in on something that may clear up issues with fusion power scaling.
I always felt that fusion should add the max potential of both fighters. So in DBZ Vegito's case, base Vegito would be several times stronger than the sum of SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegita.
This way, the base of any fusion should automatically be several times stronger than either unfused character no matter what form they are in.
This also makes sense from a storytelling perspective because you don't want to glorify fusion and show off someone who is technically weaker than the people they were originally.
This should fit well within what Vados said of potara fusion being "sum of the two multipled tens of times" or something along those lines.
This then would make it understandable why base Kale is even catching tired SSJG Goku since SS Berserker Kale seems to be somewhere between SSJ3 and SS God.
This would also imply that base Kale is stronger than Buu saga Vegito since he was only SSJ3 + SSJ2 while Kale is SS Berserker + SSJ2.
And thus we understandably get:
FT arc Vegito >> Kefla >= SSJG Goku > Buu Saga Vegito
dbzfan7 wrote:Then I don't understand why they don't just say that.
Well, they pretty much did -- in this episode anyway. I feel like they could have specified this in the previous episode as well, but you literally have Champa directly stating that Kefla can beat SSG Goku because he's short on stamina which is about as direct as you can possibly get here. I'm honestly not sure how else they could have phrased that. Again, later on, even Vados was confident that SSB Goku posed a serious threat to Super Saiyan Kefla until Champa commented on Goku's exhaustion again and further suggested that this factor evened the odds between the two.
This makes perfect sense, considering the fact that BoG implied that form to provide an even greater boost than Potara. So frankly, there's already a clear precedent not to buy into this notion that Kefla is (necessarily) stronger than Goku as a fresh Super Saiyan God at full power, at least when it comes to her base form.
I dunno if he's saying she would have no chance if he was fresh, but more she can take this easily now. Could be interpreted how you say. Though the Vados/Champa part is a good indicator. I dunno with how they're reacting a lot of the time, especially in SSJG they treat her as something insane rather than just "Drat if only I was at full stamina." Even though he keeps on pulling out forms left and right when he's supposed to be low on stamina. He's gaining it somehow...and then losing it again cause well plot.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Where are people getting the idea that gokus forms are weaker than they should be?
He wasn't weaker as an ssj2. His forms aren't stated to be weaker. His stamina in reference to how the show talks about it is only affecting how long he can maintain his power, but it isn't weaker than it would usually be.
Due to th as fact they litteraly state it in this episode that if you wasn't tired he would win, basically saying goku tired ssg is stronger than a not tired ssg.
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Where are people getting the idea that gokus forms are weaker than they should be?
He wasn't weaker as an ssj2. His forms aren't stated to be weaker. His stamina in reference to how the show talks about it is only affecting how long he can maintain his power, but it isn't weaker than it would usually be.
Because even way back in Boo saga Goku can still maintain his SSJ3 despite not at full power. Its the same thing here.
As I suggested, Toppo is slightly weaker than a full powered Super Saiyan blue as vegeta seems to have an advantage. His one throw seems to have briefly incapicitated Toppo. Toppo only gets hits on Vegeta when he is distracted on Kefla vs Goku fight. Fits in line with Goku having an advantage over him. However, toppo is still extremely strong, strong enough to nearly stalemate him.
Super Saiyan for fusions seems to be a 4-5x multiplier. Also it is noted by Champa that tired blue goku can't beat kefla because he's exhausted. She seems to be in a weird tier above blue but below KKx2 Blue. Remember that base kefla was walking all over SSG GOku.
So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?
Turns out people were losing their minds over nothing. SSJB was giving SSJ Kefla a pretty tough time. The spoilers made it sound as if she was stomping him
AvatarReiko wrote:So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?
Turns out people were losing their minds over nothing. SSJB was giving SSJ Kefla a pretty tough time. The spoilers made it sound as if she was stomping him
Lol, you should read YT comments. People are screaming they are done with super because Kefla koed blue kk Goku, even tho Goku used up all his stamina, lol. Its a blast to read through.
