Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SansrivaaL]

So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?

Turns out people were losing their minds over nothing. SSJB was giving SSJ Kefla a pretty tough time. The spoilers made it sound as if she was stomping him

Told people that they should wait but nope, they were so sure it was SSJB that was on the defensive getting stomped, well, WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!!! BUWAHAHAHAHA.

[buutenks]

So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?

Turns out people were losing their minds over nothing. SSJB was giving SSJ Kefla a pretty tough time. The spoilers made it sound as if she was stomping him

Told people that they should wait but nope, they were so sure it was SSJB that was on the defensive getting stomped, well, WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!!! BUWAHAHAHAHA.

People seem to forget that Majin Vegeta koed ssj2 Goku with a single blow to the back of the head while Goku wasnt looking.

[SansrivaaL]

So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?

Turns out people were losing their minds over nothing. SSJB was giving SSJ Kefla a pretty tough time. The spoilers made it sound as if she was stomping him

Told people that they should wait but nope, they were so sure it was SSJB that was on the defensive getting stomped, well, WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!!! BUWAHAHAHAHA.

People seem to forget that Majin Vegeta koed ssj2 Goku with a single blow to the back of the head while Goku wasnt looking.

But but, thats still full powered SSJ2 Goku! he was at SSJ2, he transformed! theres no way he was tired nor off guard, he was at full power, its simply Majin Vegeta>SSJ2 Goku. I'm being sarcastic.

[buutenks]

Told people that they should wait but nope, they were so sure it was SSJB that was on the defensive getting stomped, well, WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!!! BUWAHAHAHAHA.

People seem to forget that Majin Vegeta koed ssj2 Goku with a single blow to the back of the head while Goku wasnt looking.

But but, thats still full powered SSJ2 Goku! he was at SSJ2, he transformed! theres no way he was tired nor off guard, he was at full power, its simply Majin Vegeta>SSJ2 Goku. I'm being sarcastic.

Haha, ye i know. Can you imagine if there was internet and stuff back when Z was airing?.

Would be like, omg, whats with this filler? Z sucks, omg bad animation. Why r some kids as strong as Goku? Omg, why is this fat pink blob so strong, etc

[dragon boss z]

[quote="apex_pretador"
Super Saiyan for fusions seems to be a 4-5x multiplier.[/quote]

Ya I was thinking multipliers for fusions were smaller for a while now. I feel like the fusion brings out more of their latent power so the ssj boost doesn't do quite as much.

[Bullza]

So my interpretation of all this is

*Clearly Super Saiyan God Goku was not at full power because of a lack in stamina. Champa actually says he used a lot of it.

*So would would full power Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Base Kelfa? Who knows.

*A probably less stamina drained Super Saiyan Blue Goku matches a non full power Super Saiyan Kefla. So Super Saiyan Blue would seemingly be about 50 times stronger (maybe more) than Super Saiyan God which I suppose is ok, we suggested if that was the case before. At least know we know it's on a completely different tier entirely.

*Using Kaioken he clearly has the upper hand....until he's suddenly knocked out.

*In the next episode I can't tell what is happening with Kelfa but she still isn't gonna be a match for Ultra Instinct from the looks of it.

So all in all I'd say Super Saiyan Kefla would be stronger than a full power Super Saiyan God but not Super Saiyan Blue if she can only match a drained one.

On a side note, Base Gohan again is keeping up perfectly fine with the Namek fight. Which may or may not be weird depending on how it plays out.

[Ziegander]

Looks like we'll have to wait and see for yet another episode what the real limits of Kefla's powers are, but, sheesh, come on, if SSBKKx2 can give Kefla trouble, even if Goku is tired as hell in that form, how is she reasonably supposed to pose any threat to Ultra Instinct at all? She can't. Honestly, kind of sad considering where SSBerserk Kale was implied to be earlier in the tournament (all arguments of Goku was massively sandbagging aside, Jiren decided to get involved, something he currently doesn't even care about, despite SS(Controlled Berserk?) Kefla being insanely stronger than SSBerserk Kale should have been at the time). Yet the NEP would have us believe that she finds some way to keep ramping up her power to give Ultra Instinct Goku at least some trouble for at least a little smidgen of time.

I feel like a lot of what is currently happening in the ToP just completely ignores established power scaling from even just a handful of episodes ago in the same arc, because of things like Goku using all of his forms against Jiren as an in-universe establishment of power levels, but also because of how SSJ God Goku could body Caulifla but only slightly stalemate+ Controlled Berserker Kale, it's obvious the writers/directors want some sort of power scale to exist, but it really makes the argument that power scaling doesn't matter at all anymore difficult as well as power scaling only matters as a self-contained concept within each arc. Like I've said a few times recently, the writers and director can't seem to decide, is power scaling an important thing, or is it bullshit?! They give us evidence of one, but then literally the next episode they give us evidence of the other. SUPER DOES NOT HAVE ANY FUCKING CONSISTENCY.

A lot of people, I've seen, like to try and attack posters for being upset, just for one example, by Goku being so powerful, yet also mad when Kale wrecks Goku in SSB, just for one example from a while ago. What those people are missing is that, for me at least, the issue is less that I don't want Goku to be powerful, but more that, if you're going to establish Goku as being a certain power level, I want the show to remain consistent with that portrayal. The ubiquitous excuse that Goku is "holding back" has become tired and bullshit at this point. He was holding back against Kale and Caulifla even though, actually, he's been so tired he can barely fight to begin with? Make up your mind, Super. Okay, if they hadn't fused, he would have ringed them both out. Was he still actually holding back even in his exhaustion? There's too many factors that just don't make any sense, and honestly, I don't think the directors actually care. We never have any idea when Goku is using his full power, when he's just fucking around, or when he is tired. Statements by other characters in the episodes have been shown to be untrustworthy, and so all we have are feats to go on, and by feats Goku seems to be regaining power at the very least, if not stamina as well (something Super has MAYBE tried to establish as being two different things, but has done a really shitty job of communicating in any sensible way). People that try to apply any sort of power scale consistency will come to the very reasonable conclusion that SSJ (Controlled Berserk) Kefla is no stronger than Toppo, which is a far cry from what I would have expected before seeing the fusion in action, and if that's actually meant to be the case, SSJ Kefla triggering Ultra Instinct seems like a massive cop out, because Goku shouldn't have needed to fight Jiren at all, then, to unlock the form, if Toppo is strong enough to push him into it. It also makes no sense. If Jiren is just on a completely other level from even SSBKKx20, like at least 5 to 10 times stronger than the best Goku's got, then Kefla being able to push him to his new limit makes no narrative sense at all. She's no where near Jiren's level. Jiren has no business being as strong as he is if Kefla is good enough to push Goku to the next level. Kefla isn't even as strong as Hit. Hit who got completely, absolutely destroyed by Jiren. NONE OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE.

[ekrolo2]

Could someone explain what's going on with Goku in the post Jiren fight? I really don't get how him fighting some more is helping recover his stamina when fighting a lot is the reason he lost it to begin with.

[JazzMazz]

Could someone explain what's going on with Goku in the post Jiren fight? I really don't get how him fighting some more is helping recover his stamina when fighting a lot is the reason he lost it to begin with.

One Piece.

Thats all I've got.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

Could someone explain what's going on with Goku in the post Jiren fight? I really don't get how him fighting some more is helping recover his stamina when fighting a lot is the reason he lost it to begin with.

It's simple, fighting tough opponents = a loss of stamina = recovering stamina = UI

[ekrolo2]

Could someone explain what's going on with Goku in the post Jiren fight? I really don't get how him fighting some more is helping recover his stamina when fighting a lot is the reason he lost it to begin with.

One Piece.

Thats all I've got.

What'd One Piece do?

[JazzMazz]

Could someone explain what's going on with Goku in the post Jiren fight? I really don't get how him fighting some more is helping recover his stamina when fighting a lot is the reason he lost it to begin with.

One Piece.

Thats all I've got.

What'd One Piece do?

Remember Luffy's fights with crocodile? His 3 fights with crocodile in which he was critically wounded multiple times.

Or Zoro's against Mr.1 where he delivered his strongest attack yet and was still able to fight afterwards despite being badly before hand.

Thats generally what I'm getting at. Fighting which allows characters to overcome their limits and continue on stronger than ever despite being injured, often gravely.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Once again, I see people losing their sh*t over NOTHING.

Think of it like this. If a Potara Fusion that's as compatible as Vegito can produce a warrior thousands of times stronger than the sum of his/her parts no matter how strong they get later on, that's a pretty big multiplication.

If we also factor in that SSG now only gives a marginal few times boost over the highest form behind it, SS3's 400 times boost, thanks to how strong Goku is in base form, then it's easy to see why base Kefla could take on a somewhat tired SSG Goku. Remember, even if SSG is now only a few thousand times stronger than base Goku, that's still a base Goku easily at the level of Majin Buu in both mediums, more than enough to surpass Vegito during Battle of Gods but not anymore.

We also see that SSB Goku can briefly give some trouble to SS Kefla, but he quickly realizes he needs Kaio-ken to take her on. Again, understandable if SSB is only a few times stronger than SSG and SS still gives a 50 times boost to Kefla.

There are also some nice examples in the other fights. Katsopera has immense speed, enough that 18 can barely react whilst 17 can. We also have Piccolo and Gohan against the Universe 6 Namekians and doing quite alright. Gohan can push back their blasts with a Masenk and literally STOMPS Pirina's arm off. I'm surprised such a large amount of blood got past the censorship, but then again, Namekians are a free pass for kid-friendly dismemberment

And the Ultra Instinct! Once again, it shows it's not JUST a traditional power boost.

[Helios518]

So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?

No, I'm sure if you're fast enough then UI could straight up be useless.

[apex_pretador]

Super Saiyan for fusions seems to be a 4-5x multiplier.

Ya I was thinking multipliers for fusions were smaller for a while now. I feel like the fusion brings out more of their latent power so the ssj boost doesn't do quite as much.

Fixed your quotes

This will also perfectly fit in line with filler base vegetto being able to engage with buuhan and a full-power enraged buuhan still giving SS Vegetto difficulty.


Or it could be because kale and caulifla fused in super saiyan forms.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?

No, I'm sure if you're fast enough then UI could straight up be useless.

It'd be REALLY HARD, though.

Like, HUNDREDS OF TIMES faster. Dyspo almost certainly isn't faster than instant reaction speeds.

[ekrolo2]

One Piece.

Thats all I've got.

What'd One Piece do?

Remember Luffy's fights with crocodile? His 3 fights with crocodile in which he was critically wounded multiple times.

Or Zoro's against Mr.1 where he delivered his strongest attack yet and was still able to fight afterwards despite being badly before hand.

Thats generally what I'm getting at. Fighting which allows characters to overcome their limits and continue on stronger than ever despite being injured, often gravely.

Oh God yeah, I hate it when they do that. The only thing that pisses me off more is when they say things like "Don't do X! If you do X you will 100% die for sure!" and then of course they don't die. It's especially obnoxious since writers REALLY over emphasize the lethality of X to the point of self parody and yet still fail to produce a fucking corpse by the end.

[Helios518]

So does UI make Goku completely untouchable? Wouldn't that be a "No limits fallacy"?

No, I'm sure if you're fast enough then UI could straight up be useless.

It'd be REALLY HARD, though.

Like, HUNDREDS OF TIMES faster. Dyspo almost certainly isn't faster than instant reaction speeds.

Of course it's hard, because Goku has God/Hakaishin tier combat speed paired up with instant reaction speed. But understand that even if Goku has instant reaction speeds, he's still limited by how fast his body moves. So if say a regular human got UI, they still get speed-blitzed by most of DB.

[JazzMazz]

What'd One Piece do?

Remember Luffy's fights with crocodile? His 3 fights with crocodile in which he was critically wounded multiple times.

Or Zoro's against Mr.1 where he delivered his strongest attack yet and was still able to fight afterwards despite being badly before hand.

Thats generally what I'm getting at. Fighting which allows characters to overcome their limits and continue on stronger than ever despite being injured, often gravely.

Oh God yeah, I hate it when they do that. The only thing that pisses me off more is when they say things like "Don't do X! If you do X you will 100% die for sure!" and then of course they don't die. It's especially obnoxious since writers REALLY over emphasize the lethality of X to the point of self parody and yet still fail to produce a fucking corpse by the end.

Though I think sometimes, if its only stuff like stabs or exhaustion, I'm OK with them making a decent recovery from that. Other times it can be really bullshit. The two most egregious examples of that for me was that bird guy in the Alabasta arc miraculously surviving a giant freaking explosion from a city destroying bomb that he took at point blank range. The other for me was the Zoro shenanigins in the Thriller Bark arc with Kuma.

[Doctor.]

What'd One Piece do?

Remember Luffy's fights with crocodile? His 3 fights with crocodile in which he was critically wounded multiple times.

Or Zoro's against Mr.1 where he delivered his strongest attack yet and was still able to fight afterwards despite being badly before hand.

Thats generally what I'm getting at. Fighting which allows characters to overcome their limits and continue on stronger than ever despite being injured, often gravely.

Oh God yeah, I hate it when they do that. The only thing that pisses me off more is when they say things like "Don't do X! If you do X you will 100% die for sure!" and then of course they don't die. It's especially obnoxious since writers REALLY over emphasize the lethality of X to the point of self parody and yet still fail to produce a fucking corpse by the end.

Well, Chaozu did die when he blew up.