Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cetra]

Does Whis mean the Genki Dama itself or the Ultra Instinct with the Genki Dama absorbed? "Bathed in" sounds like he could have meant the latter.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Watched the episode with subs.

- Whis says that Super Saiyan Kefla's energy rivalled the Spirit Bomb from before.

- She then turns into a Super Saiyan 2 and Piccolo says she's stronger (I forget the exact word) than Ultra Instinct Goku from when he used it on Jiren.

- Kefla said she could blow up a universe in one shot.

- Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger this time around and won in the end.


It looks like Kefla was a lot stronger than first thought. Actually kind of confusing to be honest. If Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was above Ultra Instinct Goku then Ultra Instinct Goku surely couldn't have been as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito or maybe even Merged Zamasu.

It would also mean Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would have been considerably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20. Meaning Super Saiyan Kefla would be considerably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10..

Yet in the last episode it seemed like she was only a match for a tired Super Saiyan Blue....so that's confusing.

I think Piccolo that Kefla was stronger than Goku before using Ultra Instinct on EP 115 (when he was only using Blue Kaioken).

confirming that Kefla did not outgrow Goku before, and took advantage of the fact that Saiyajin is tired

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Yeah, Kafla is WAAAAY stronger than Vegetto in the same forms. Her Super Saiyan 2 is comparable to his Super Saiyan Blue. Looks like Potara definitely isn't a set-in-stone multiplier.

[Bullza]

I'm actually not sure now if Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Beerus after all just yet.

[pacz360]

So is the tired low balling gonna stop now after all this?

Yep

[pacz360]

Yeah, Kafla is WAAAAY stronger than Vegetto in the same forms. Her Super Saiyan 2 is comparable to his Super Saiyan Blue. Looks like Potara definitely isn't a set-in-stone multiplier.

May ssjb vegito wrecks her with low mid diff

[pacz360]

I'm actually not sure now if Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Beerus after all just yet.

I'm not sure if he's stronger than ssjb vegito

[Doctor.]

Whis stated that UI Goku's physically weak, so I wouldn't be surprised either. His punches seemed to have less effect than Kaioken did.

[Marlowe89]

Watched the episode with subs.

- Whis says that Super Saiyan Kefla's energy rivalled the Spirit Bomb from before.

- She then turns into a Super Saiyan 2 and Piccolo says she's stronger (I forget the exact word) than Ultra Instinct Goku from when he used it on Jiren.

- Kefla said she could blow up a universe in one shot.

- Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger this time around and won in the end.


It looks like Kefla was a lot stronger than first thought. Actually kind of confusing to be honest. If Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was above Ultra Instinct Goku then Ultra Instinct Goku surely couldn't have been as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito or maybe even Merged Zamasu.

It would also mean Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would have been considerably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20. Meaning Super Saiyan Kefla would be considerably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10..

Yet in the last episode it seemed like she was only a match for a tired Super Saiyan Blue....so that's confusing.

That is interesting. I haven't watched the subs yet myself, but those comparisons certainly make it sound like Kefla's Super Saiyan forms are enormously more powerful than what the previous episode implied. Was she holding back against tired SSB Goku? Was she just getting accustomed to her power in that state? And like you said, how strong/weak would this make the initial Ultra Instinct Goku who fought against Jiren?

It could be like I suggested in the previous post, where Kefla's Super Saiyan forms are partially comprised of Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan form and thus massively stronger than the ordinary SS stages and their associated multipliers. Something like Caulifla's SS x/+ Kale's LSS could make for a frighteningly high multiplier, but who really knows the writing staff's angle at this point? Definitely confusing for sure.

[Legion]

I'm actually not sure now if Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Beerus after all just yet.

Current Goku is not stronger than Beerus or the other Gods in fact (the strongest ones at least). People jumping the gun too much this time.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It seems that Kefla SSJ2 is more powerful than Blue Kaioken (tired) of the last EP (which increased Goku Blue's power twice).
But if Goku SSB were fully recovered, would his power surpass that of Blue Kaioken tired of EP 115?

Goku SSB can be several times more powerful than the tired SSB of the last EP, or not. We can not know.
But we know that just because Goku was tired gave Kefla a CHANCE to win and yet she was only able to match / match SSB. Even Vados was worried.

In 100% of power, we do not know what Goku could do

[SuperHumanGod]

So is the tired low balling gonna stop now after all this?

Yep

No.

Rivalled and only in reference to the spirit bomb, not goku or goku + SB.

Feel. Nothing concrete here. I could feel like I could do X, even if I obviously can't.

Might. Again, nothing concrete.

Seems obvious to me.

I'm super low balling goku until/if we get more info in the future.

[Bullza]

I'm actually not sure now if Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Beerus after all just yet.

I'm not sure if he's stronger than ssjb vegito

It doesn't seem like he should be.

It wouldn't make any sense for Super Saiyan 2 Kefla to be anywhere near as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito. Beerus is supposed to be about as strong as that.

Seems like the order goes

Jiren > Super Saiyan Blue Vegito >= Beerus > Ultra Instinct Goku (EP 116) > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Ultra Instinct Goku (EP 110) > Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20

Jiren wasn't using full power so that part would be ok. However it does seem odd how the Super Saiyan Kefla vs Tired Super Saiyan Blue Goku went. That should have been an easy stomping.

That is interesting. I haven't watched the subs yet myself, but those comparisons certainly make it sound like Kefla's Super Saiyan forms are enormously more powerful than what the previous episode implied.

I found the exact dialogue.

Piccolo - This power....It might even surpass Son's earlier level!

Gohan - No way!

Piccolo - But if Kefla's power up could further draw out Son's power...

So it wouldn't really seem like Piccolo was referring to when he used Kaioken because then Goku wouldn't really need to draw out power.

[SuperDragoon]

So is the tired low balling gonna stop now after all this?

Yep

No.

Rivalled and only in reference to the spirit bomb, not goku or goku + SB.

Feel. Nothing concrete here. I could feel like I could do X, even if I obviously can't.

Might. Again, nothing concrete.

Seems obvious to me.

I'm super low balling goku until/if we get more info in the future.

1. Implying the Spirit Bomb was below Kaioken SSB Goku?
2. Even though SSG Goku is capable of destroying a universe and Kefla>>>>SSG Goku?
3. Implying Piccolo is wrong....somehow? He's never been the one to misinterpret someone's power like you're implying.

You are being biased and intellectually dishonest by downplaying a character you don't like.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Piccolo's speech is implied. Nothing indicates that Kefla overcame the previous level of Ultra Instinct used by Goku (it would not make sense for her to stay on the Beerus / Jiren level and can not even touch the current Goku, since he is apparently not much stronger than before).

It is much more plausible to say that Kefla overcame the power of Goku in EP 115 (before activating the UI again), which is the SSB Kaioken tired.

[pacz360]

Yep

No.

Rivalled and only in reference to the spirit bomb, not goku or goku + SB.

Feel. Nothing concrete here. I could feel like I could do X, even if I obviously can't.

Might. Again, nothing concrete.

Seems obvious to me.

I'm super low balling goku until/if we get more info in the future.

1. Implying the Spirit Bomb was below Kaioken SSB Goku?
2. Even though SSG Goku is capable of destroying a universe and Kefla>>>>SSG Goku?
3. Implying Piccolo is wrong....somehow? He's never been the one to misinterpret someone's power like you're implying.

You are being biased and intellectually dishonest by downplaying a character you don't like.

Agreed no point downplaying kefla strength

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Whis stated that UI Goku's physically weak, so I wouldn't be surprised either. His punches seemed to have less effect than Kaioken did.

Whis said that was because Goku wasn't actually using Ultra Instinct when he attacked, so his attacks were thought-out and slow while his defensive movements were much faster than anything Kafla could keep up with. Goku may have access to Ultra Instinct, but he has yet to master it. Presumably once he does, his attacking power will line up better with his defensive power and speed.

[Bullza]

So yeah to me what it seems like it's getting at is that

Super Saiyan Kefla would be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 because her power rivalled the Spirit Bomb and of course the Spirit Bomb was the ace in the hole on top of everything Goku did prior.

Ultra Instinct Goku in Episode 110 would be less than twice as strong as Super Saiyan Kefla so that it allowed Super Saiyan 2 Kefla to surpass him.

Then this Ultra Instinct Goku who was said to be stronger than before is comfortably above that.

If all that was the case then Super Saiyan Blue is not necessarily like 50 times as strong as Super Saiyan God after all.

Now I need to go back and rewatching parts of the last episode to try and come up with a reason why Super Saiyan Blue Goku seemed to do so well. Unless tat was another Base Goku bs Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla kind of situation.

It is much more plausible to say that Kefla overcame the power of Goku on EP 115 (before activating the UI again), ie Goku SSB Kaioken

But the indication that Goku needed to draw out even more power fighting her and them making him out to be stronger than before would seem perhaps unnecessary otherwise.

Plus the comment about her power rivalling the Spirit Bomb as just Super Saiyan would seem to add to it.

[Noah]

So in the end Kefla was able to beat Goku (without UI) by herself, but I wonder if she managed to turn into Super Saiyan 3 would she put a better fight against him?

[Lord Beerus]

Hmm. It does seem as though Kafla was stronger than we initially gave her credit. I guess Goku had recovered good portion of his strength, maybe somewhere between 65-85%, when he fought SSJ Kafla in Episode 115. Whis did state that Goku needed to use Kaioken on top of SSJB to have any chance of defeating SSJ Kafla. And Kafla was show to be hesitant after knocking Goku out of his Kaioken Blue form in finishing off. So maybe she wasn't using her full strength, too? Not to mention the comparison made with SSJ2 Kafla's energy matching that of the Genki Dama Goku threw at Jiren and Goku eventually got absorbed into. It all seems very vague.