Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Green]

So after Cauliflowa and walking plot device to give Cauliflowa LSSJ as well named kefla is gone for a little while, I want to ask this of the people who try to support every powerup they have had and mastered in around 30mins....
How's your take to justify all that has gone down? I am curious how far the limits of human imagination can be stretched..

Different universe different rules... no, just kidding.


Regarding tier lists for the manga, here's mine:
[spoiler]0.
Zeno

1.
Grand Priest
Zeno's Guards

2.
Angels

3.
Hakaishin*
SSB Vegetto
Jiren

* Some gods are stronger than others and I don't want to list them all. Imo Beerus and Quitela are higher up than Jiren and Belmod.

4.
MSSB Goku / Vegeta
Merged Zamasu
Toppo
Hit *

* He wasn't at his best in the tournament since he couldn't mantain his full power state for long, I figure this is where he is going to stand in the TOP

5.
SSB/SSG Vegeta *
SSR Black
Golden Freezer **
SSB Goku / Vegeta ***
SS Black (Zenkai)
Hit
SSG Goku / Vegeta

* Switching to God form allowed him to use an higher percentage of Blue's full power when attacking, still nothing compared to MSSB
** His power steadily decreases below SSG levels.
*** I don't think Goku nor Vegeta made any amazing gains since FNF, except mastering Blue.

6.
Toppo (Mortal Ki)
SS Vegetto (Buu Arc)
SS2+ Vegeta
SS Black
SS3 Goku
SS2+ Trunks
Zamasu

7.
SS Goku / Vegeta / Trunks
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Magetta

8.
Goku / Vegeta / Trunks
Frost
Kaioshin[/spoiler]

[JazzMazz]

So after Cauliflowa and walking plot device to give Cauliflowa LSSJ as well named kefla is gone for a little while, I want to ask this of the people who try to support every powerup they have had and mastered in around 30mins....
How's your take to justify all that has gone down? I am curious how far the limits of human imagination can be stretched..

Different universe different rules... no, just kidding.


Regarding tier lists for the manga, here's mine:
[spoiler]0.
Zeno

1.
Grand Priest
Zeno's Guards

2.
Angels

3.
Hakaishin*
SSB Vegetto
Jiren

* Some gods are stronger than others and I don't want to list them all. Imo Beerus and Quitela are higher up than Jiren and Belmod.

4.
MSSB Goku / Vegeta
Merged Zamasu
Toppo
Hit *

* He wasn't at his best in the tournament since he couldn't mantain his full power state for long, I figure this is where he is going to stand in the TOP

5.
SSB/SSG Vegeta *
SSR Black
Golden Freezer **
SSB Goku / Vegeta ***
SS Black (Zenkai)
Hit
SSG Goku / Vegeta

* Switching to God form allowed him to use an higher percentage of Blue's full power when attacking, still nothing compared to MSSB
** His power steadily decreases below SSG levels.
*** I don't think Goku nor Vegeta made any amazing gains since FNF, except mastering Blue.

6.
Toppo (Mortal Ki)
SS Vegetto (Buu Arc)
SS2+ Vegeta
SS Black
SS3 Goku
SS2+ Trunks
Zamasu

7.
SS Goku / Vegeta / Trunks
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Magetta

8.
Goku / Vegeta / Trunks
Frost
Kaioshin[/spoiler]

Hit was a considerable amount weaker than SSB Goku, much less MSSB Goku in the manga.

[pacz360]

So where do we place Ft arc ssjb vegito and merged zamasu in all this

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So where do we place Ft arc ssjb vegito and merged zamasu in all this

The only concrete evidence we have is from the manga, which places SSB Vegito firmly around or possibly above Beerus. Maybe. The Hakaishin are often described on a general level, so even if there are power discrepancies, they might not be overly drastic in numerical terms.

I'd say, for the time being until/unless we get absolute confirmation, we should place SSB Vegito and Corrupted Merged Zamasu around the level of Hakaishin.

[Marlowe89]

It wasn't implied, it was shown. Future Zamasu clearly fought somewhat evenly with SSB Goku, and Trunks clearly fought evenly with Future Zamasu and even a few times with SSR Black. The power scaling is all over the place, and Trunks gets SSR in the anime and seems to be almost SSB level, something that never happens in the manga and was made up by Toei.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks briefly clashed with Super Saiyan Rose Black. Likewise, future Zamasu briefly clashed with Super Saiyan Blue Goku. There are a lot of instances in Super where characters with monumental gaps between them can do this for a period of time. We literally have several examples of it in the present tournament. We know that was little more than an outlier because Trunks later required protection from Goku and Vegeta in Episode 61 and was made out to be vastly weaker than both, and the fact that he needed a new form (Super Saiyan Rage) to compete on that level additionally suggests that neither he nor future Zamasu were anywhere nearly that strong beforehand.

This is why dialogue ultimately trumps what is "shown" when it comes to DBS specifically, otherwise the anime would be damn near impossible to parse and generally all over the place. I acknowledge that Super Saiyan Rage is at least close to that level, but that's an anime-only form to begin with.

You are acting like Super completely retconned BoG movie when it didn't.

You're the one who made unsubstantiated claims of a retcon here, not me. I was just saying that if Goku's strength in that form was retconned, it would have been from the film and not necessarily the show.

You just can't say it's true in the manga because it is in the anime.

I actually can in this context though. We already have confirmation from Toshio that Toei's writing staff attempts to follow the power-scaling provided in Toriyama's outline as closely as possible; Toyotaro has said something to that effect on his part as well. If both mediums are trying to adhere to the same scale, then the scale is generally going to be the same barring any misinterpretations, anime-only/manga-only transformations and any other outliers that could lead to a discrepancy between the two; however, those would be the exception, not the rule.

If just one clash between Goku and Beerus was enough to have Elder Kai state that the entire universe was in grave danger, that is explicitly telling you the reader that these characters were fighting close to that level of power. I really don't know how much clearer it could get. There's no reason to believe this isn't the same as in the anime, and taking the universe out in a mere few shots would technically put them on multi-galaxy level at an absolute minimum.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, after I watched current episode in which once again potara fusion along with stacked not divine forms over it could manage to threat ui goku(even if massively weakened) I believe Current ssb vegito is only below Zeno, his guardians and grand priest.

Current ssb vegito(post ui goku) >=Current ssb vegito(pre ui goku) > Futrue Trunks arc ssb vegito ~ Jiren ~ Ui goku(full power) >= Beerus > Merged Zamasu > GOD(s) > ssj2 Kefla > ssb kaioken goku ~ ssj Kefla

[AvatarReiko]

Well Super Saiyan 2 Goku was on the same general level as Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla. So they'd be on the same level in Base form too.

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

[Noah]

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

But that superiority was not power related as Whis explained is more due Goku being more experienced than Caulifla.

[Marlowe89]

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

That was because of a non-power-related factor though, which kind of adds to my explanation above that Super really operates on an entirely different set of rules than Z ever did. Fighting skill/experience is now just as important as brute strength.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well Super Saiyan 2 Goku was on the same general level as Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla. So they'd be on the same level in Base form too.

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

Through skill, not power.

I don't care if it makes no sense or is inconsistent with established rules from the original series. This is what the reality is. Goku figured out how to read SS2 Caulifla's movements and could keep up with her, and only needed to turn SS2 himself when she caught up and did the same.

[dbgtFO]

Well Super Saiyan 2 Goku was on the same general level as Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla. So they'd be on the same level in Base form too.

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

Through skill, not power.

I don't care if it makes no sense or is inconsistent with established rules from the original series. This is what the reality is. Goku figured out how to read SS2 Caulifla's movements and could keep up with her, and only needed to turn SS2 himself when she caught up and did the same.

As I said last week or the week before, it would have been great, if it was attributed to his training with Whis. Even if the two of them hadn't learned UI, they should still be more capable in their base states in terms of skill after training with such a master, that they would normally be.

As for the episode, like the other guys I find it strange, that Kafla is now stated to be as powerful as the Genkidama, when last episode she was only supposed to be a match for Goku, because Goku was tired. So was the Genkidama only as strong as SSB Goku then? lol.
Well this wouldn't be the first time, that Goku miscalculated the power needed for the Genkidama!

And the preview.. well if Brianne is not going to show better prowess against the Androids before her new transformation, I will comfortably say her power is no more than base Goku, but maybe they will give her a good showing before she gets the new form?

[AvatarReiko]

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

That was because of a non-power-related factor though, which kind of adds to my explanation above that Super really operates on an entirely different set of rules than Z ever did. Fighting skill/experience is now just as important as brute strength.

We literally see them clash their fists and try to overpower one another and they were completely even. Neither side able to push the other

Well Super Saiyan 2 Goku was on the same general level as Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla. So they'd be on the same level in Base form too.

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

Through skill, not power.

I don't care if it makes no sense or is inconsistent with established rules from the original series. This is what the reality is. Goku figured out how to read SS2 Caulifla's movements and could keep up with her, and only needed to turn SS2 himself when she caught up and did the same.

Then he can do that in SSJ2. Goku does not magically lose all his experience and abilities by transforming

Goku was slightly superior to SSJ2 Caulifa in his base

But that superiority was not power related as Whis explained is more due Goku being more experienced than Caulifla.

Then by that logic, SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Caulifa as well

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Just to pose the question, does anyone think that piccolo wasn't stronger than ssj Gohan during their training?

I'm not sure if that was actually the case given current material like base Gohan and piccolo vs the u6 namekians and base Goku being able to withstand piccolos fully charged attack. There is material from their training session that would point to this.

Piccolo stated that Gohan was too overeager and couldn't calmly analyze a situation, which ties in to him getting punched in the gut because he misreads where piccolo tries to punch him, not necessarily because he's weaker.

And it ties in to gohans other fight with lavender where he states that he wants to rush lavender to test his own power. He gets poisoned right off the bat and struggles despite being overwhelmingly stronger than lavender in base. He landed no hits on lavender whom seems to have read gohans rhythm since he was visually doing the same combo over and over again and I think piccolo read his rhythm as well.

So I think piccolos domination could be another case of skill over power like roshi vs Ganos and base Goku Vs ssj2 Caulifla and piccolo is around base Gohan in terms of power. Piccolo performance was due to him exploiting gohans weaknesses, but now that Gohan doesn't have those weaknesses anymore he should be capable of beating piccolo in base.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Just to pose the question, does anyone think that piccolo wasn't stronger than ssj Gohan during their training?

I'm not sure if that was actually the case given current material like base Gohan and piccolo vs the u6 namekians and base Goku being able to withstand piccolos fully charged attack. There is material from their training session that would point to this.

Piccolo stated that Gohan was too overeager and couldn't calmly analyze a situation, which ties in to him getting punched in the gut because he misreads where piccolo tries to punch him, not necessarily because he's weaker.

And it ties in to gohans other fight with lavender where he states that he wants to rush lavender to test his own power. He gets poisoned right off the bat and struggles despite being overwhelmingly stronger than lavender in base. He landed no hits on lavender whom seems to have read gohans rhythm since he was visually doing the same combo over and over again and I think piccolo read his rhythm as well.

So I think piccolos domination could be another case of skill over power like roshi vs Ganos and base Goku Vs ssj2 Caulifla and piccolo is around base Gohan in terms of power.

Maybe, though Gohan DID note that Piccolo's power was extraordinary and wondered how he managed to get so strong, which he said when he was getting choked out by Piccolo's stretchy arms.

I've always leaned toward the interpretation that Gohan just powered up overall after reattaining his Ultimate power and training it to godly levels with Piccolo's help.

[Zeno's button]

My take:

1. Zen-oh
2. Grand Priest
3. Zen-oh's guards
4. Angels
5. SS Blue Vegito
6. Beerus and Quitela
7. Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku
8. Belmod
9. Rest of the Gods of Destruction
10. SS2 Kefla
11. Toppo
12. SS Vegito and SS Kefla
13. Merged Zamasu and perfect SS Blue Goku*
14. Base Vegito and Base Kefla
15. Golden Frieza (Universal Tournament arc)
16. SS Blue KK Goku
17. SSG/SS Blue Vegeta*
18. SS Rosé Goku Black
19. Golden Frieza (Return of Frieza arc)
20. Hit
21. SS Blue Goku and SS Blue Vegeta
22. SSG Goku
23. Dyspo
24. Majin Buu (Gohan absorbed)

* Manga only

[Marlowe89]

As for the episode, like the other guys I find it strange, that Kafla is now stated to be as powerful as the Genkidama, when last episode she was only supposed to be a match for Goku, because Goku was tired.

I believe Bullza brought this up, but the episode does show Super Saiyan Kefla powering up again before Whis made the comparison between herself and the Genkidama. Numerically, that one power-up had to have been well over 20 times and to be honest, like many things in Super, it does rank a bit highly on my personal bullshit meter. We've gotta accept that this is how strong the writers want her to be though.

Looking at how these characters were all compared previously, Super Saiyan 2 Kefla is most likely fairly close to Vegito Blue in strength. This could mean one of two things -- either 1.) as I previously suggested, Kefla's Super Saiyan forms are partially modified by Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan multiplier, which would make them much stronger than the yellow Super Saiyan multipliers we're familiar with, or 2.) Kefla in general is just a much stronger fusion than Vegito. Personally I would lean towards the first explanation, but the latter explanation is also possible if you're willing to believe that base Kefla can outmatch a fully-powered Super Saiyan God Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Not to mention that her massive power was what brought the Ultra Instinct out.

Even though the subs make a strength comparison, it could also just be the intensity of her power, or just the presence of it, and not necessarily being something to contrast the Genkidama with in pure power terms. Either way, even if you changed up the wording, the result should still be the same.

Kefla's power is massive enough for Goku to break the shell of his limits so that he can take on such a powerful opponent.

[dbgtFO]

As for the episode, like the other guys I find it strange, that Kafla is now stated to be as powerful as the Genkidama, when last episode she was only supposed to be a match for Goku, because Goku was tired.

I believe Bullza brought this up, but the episode does show Super Saiyan Kefla powering up again before Whis made the comparison between herself and the Genkidama. Numerically, that one power-up had to have been well over 20 times and to be honest, like many things in Super, it does rank a bit highly on my personal bullshit meter. We've gotta accept that this is how strong the writers want her to be though.

You're referring to episode 115, when she fought Goku Blue + Kaio-ken? There is indeed a power up there in response to Goku using Kaio-ken and then Goku powering up again. So that would be it, then.

[dragon boss z]

I believe that Godku is multi galaxy level in the manga. Shockwaves spreading throughout a Universe and reaching a place outside of it (Kaioshin realm), where the shockwaves are then mentioned to be putting the Universe in jeopardy implies that it wouldn’t take all that long to destroy the universe.
We know that the Universe 7 is decent in size, or the same size as ours, because of Jacos line in the manga stating the it is made up of countless galaxies like the Milky Way. So plain old Galaxy level would take way to long to destroy the Universe.

Anyway, I think the anime is a great reference to use for the manga at that point because it’s veey clear what the intention is in both, but the manga is just a total rush job at that stage, and the anime goes into more depth with the bits it shows off.

Well we don't really know how much "countless" is. Also we don't know if that came from Toriyama. What we do know is that in both the manga and anime it was stated there are only 28 planets in the entire universe that have mortals (which is BS imo). And if this is true the universe really can't be that big since there are multiple planets that have mortals just in the milky way, so that means if each galaxy has a couple planets with mortals there really shouldn't be that many galaxies. But like I said the 28 planets with mortals is really stupid since I'm pretty sure there are more types of aliens than that we've seen in both Frieza's army and the galactic patrol.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I believe that Godku is multi galaxy level in the manga. Shockwaves spreading throughout a Universe and reaching a place outside of it (Kaioshin realm), where the shockwaves are then mentioned to be putting the Universe in jeopardy implies that it wouldn’t take all that long to destroy the universe.
We know that the Universe 7 is decent in size, or the same size as ours, because of Jacos line in the manga stating the it is made up of countless galaxies like the Milky Way. So plain old Galaxy level would take way to long to destroy the Universe.

Anyway, I think the anime is a great reference to use for the manga at that point because it’s veey clear what the intention is in both, but the manga is just a total rush job at that stage, and the anime goes into more depth with the bits it shows off.

Well we don't really know how much "countless" is. Also we don't know if that came from Toriyama. What we do know is that in both the manga and anime it was stated there are only 28 planets in the entire universe that have mortals (which is BS imo). And if this is true the universe really can't be that big since there are multiple planets that have mortals just in the milky way, so that means if each galaxy has a couple planets with mortals there really shouldn't be that many galaxies. But like I said the 28 planets with mortals is really stupid since I'm pretty sure there are more types of aliens than that we've seen in both Frieza's army and the galactic patrol.

Life isn't spread out entirely evenly even on Earth, so applying your train of logic doesn't work on a cosmic scale.

There's no stated rules for how Mortals are spread out across the Universes, and we've already seen that, though definitely not as large as some fictional universes, the Universes in this franchise ARE plenty big, encompassing hundreds of galaxies in BOTH mediums' visual depictions.

Being able to destroy all of that takes some serious power levels.