Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:31 pm

HeroR wrote:
Kataphrut wrote: Also, the "Caulifla goes X" meme is pretty funny now she's out of the tournament and never actually got stronger. Almost like people were getting worked up over nothing :lol:
Cali did get stronger, she just never got any new forms past Super Saiyan 2.
I guess. She improved as a fighter learning from Goku, but she never hit another big milestone like people were expecting. Unless you count Kefla, but that's just putting on an earring. And either way, she still lost in the end.

Same goes for Kale. She did get new forms, but they were all tied to a character arc, and that arc ultimately boiled down to "be less like Broly". I'm just saying, I don't think all the fears people had about these characters were warranted in the end.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:51 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Kataphrut wrote: Also, the "Caulifla goes X" meme is pretty funny now she's out of the tournament and never actually got stronger. Almost like people were getting worked up over nothing :lol:
Cali did get stronger, she just never got any new forms past Super Saiyan 2.
I guess. She improved as a fighter learning from Goku, but she never hit another big milestone like people were expecting. Unless you count Kefla, but that's just putting on an earring. And either way, she still lost in the end.

Same goes for Kale. She did get new forms, but they were all tied to a character arc, and that arc ultimately boiled down to "be less like Broly". I'm just saying, I don't think all the fears people had about these characters were warranted in the end.
People were so caught up in bitching about Caulifla getting SSJ and SSJ2 that they forgot that those forms are weak as fuck in the age of Super Saiyan Blue, Ultra Instinct, and the likes of Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, and many others.

Not to say it isn't complete bullshit that she got those forms as fast she did and in the matter it was presented, but it seems like so few people actually took a step back to look at the bigger picture as to how weak Caulifla is compared to many others. Kale on the other hand was just fucking dumb all around until she finally stopped being a Broly clone and became a likeable character.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:31 pm

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I think the fact that a major player is now out of the tournament is inherently a fundamental change to said tournament. I don't really see what you mean about how nothing has changed. Eliminating someone who could possibly win (in theory, obviously we all know Toei wouldn't actually make her win) seems fairly significant. I don't know how else you would really further the narrative in a tournament other than having the major players get knocked out (a flaw of the tournament structured arc, but I digress).

The progression is all kinds of fucked up, no doubt, but even still, I see this as quite possibly the only actually consequential episode so far other than the episodes where universes are erased and Hit's elimination. Even the special really didn't amount to much compared to this.
Narratively, everyone is a competitor with a chance to win.

What I'm saying this is a big fight, the biggest fight of the tournament, but for such a big fight, it looks likes its going to have very little impact on the flow of the narrative. It feels a little self-contained from the rest of the tournament, however, it really hasn't changed the playing field all that much and narratively from what it was before the fight, it has really lead onto much considering the huge amount of time devoted to the fight.

The Jiren fight had two important consequences narratively.
-Goku discovering a new power and also being tired out, which lead to him being targetted by other universes.
-Hits defeat to Jiren, which lead to universe 6 being targetted as was demonstrated in 112.

This fights consequences are:
-Goku's still low on stamina and is still being targetted by other universes.
-Universe 6 is on its final legs.

The first of those things was already a consequence of the previous big battle, and the second didn't need to have 4 episodes devoted to eliminating 2 competitors.

My problem with the fight is less with the fight itself, but with the placement of the fight.

This would have been a great way to lead into the final act of the tournament, maybe they could have saved it for the last 11 minutes and have it end at the last five, so you could have your big Goku vs Jiren fight, which would further up the tensions and stakes.

Instead we've gone from an excitement high in episode 116, to a fairly rudimentary episode with far less scope or scale to it, which kind of kills any of the excitement from this episode.

Hell, I would have preferred if all sides in the tournament took an episode to recover after such a devasting fight, that would be better than just continuing having these miny boss fights one episode after another, because they do become a bit of a drag. At the very least a relaxation episode of sorts would allow both sides to recuperate and reflect on their next course of action after such a massive fight.

Generally, I'm just saying the handling could have been much better. I don't have a problem with the fight itself, I just don't feel like it really lead onto anything important narratively and due to that ends up feeling a little bit like a waste of time.

EDIT: Sorry for my incoherent rambling.
You’re forgetting the fight show a big weakness in UI. Namely, Goku can’t attack in it and it makes his attacks weaker than they should. And Goku is far more conscious than the first time.

These elements wouldn’t work in a Jiren vs. Goku round 2.
Yes, it does show a big weakness in UI, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have carried that directly into a fight with Jiren, where during that fight Goku learned to overcome that weakness.
HeroR wrote:It isn’t no matter how hard you push it. Jiren has a personality, you just don’t like it.
Its true does have a personality in the anime, his most noteable traits being the fact his arrogant and belittling and thats it.

In other, he has the all the personality of a dry poorly executed sterotype of shonen bad guys.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by HeroR » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:40 pm

JazzMazz wrote: Yes, it does show a big weakness in UI, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have carried that directly into a fight with Jiren, where during that fight Goku learned to overcome that weakness.

Its true does have a personality in the anime, his most noteable traits being the fact his arrogant and belittling and thats it.

In other, he has the all the personality of a dry poorly executed sterotype of shonen bad guys.
It really couldn't since Jiren would most likely tried to knock Goku out of the ring before he could sync his defense with his attack, or Goku's stamina outright tanks again like 110 and this time Jiren blast him out of the ring with no Hit being there to save him. Keflia was strong enough to show the weakness to UI Goku, but weak enough not to be a real danger to Goku, unlike Jiren.

Not sure how Jiren is a 'sterotype of shonen bad guys' since belittling someone and being arrogant isn't exclusive to 'bad guys' even in Shonen. Also, the only people he really belittled was Hit and his 'assassin pride', which would be insulting to a hero who preserve life, and Goku who is a fight manic. Everyone else, he is to the point on.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:03 pm

Asura wrote: People were so caught up in bitching about Caulifla getting SSJ and SSJ2 that they forgot that those forms are weak as fuck in the age of Super Saiyan Blue, Ultra Instinct, and the likes of Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, and many others.

Not to say it isn't complete bullshit that she got those forms as fast she did and in the matter it was presented, but it seems like so few people actually took a step back to look at the bigger picture as to how weak Caulifla is compared to many others. Kale on the other hand was just fucking dumb all around until she finally stopped being a Broly clone and became a likeable character.
True. I mean let's be honest, Super Saiyan was devalued almost immediately after it appeared back in the original run, and by the Buu saga Super Saiyan 2 was as well. It became the new default, which is why Goku, Vegeta and later Future Trunks learned it offscreen. Also, this comparison has become tired now, but Caulifla having Super Saiyan 2 immediately is exactly the same as Goten and Trunks having Super Saiyan 1 immediately, or Gohan being as strong as he was as a child. It basically says in the context of the story that these characters are strong enough to take notice of, but need mentoring to achieve their full worth. The difference is she came later in the story, so the "baseline" of power is higher.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:11 pm

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Yes, it does show a big weakness in UI, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have carried that directly into a fight with Jiren, where during that fight Goku learned to overcome that weakness.

Its true does have a personality in the anime, his most noteable traits being the fact his arrogant and belittling and thats it.

In other, he has the all the personality of a dry poorly executed sterotype of shonen bad guys.
It really couldn't since Jiren would most likely tried to knock Goku out of the ring before he could sync his defense with his attack, or Goku's stamina outright tanks again like 110 and this time Jiren blast him out of the ring with no Hit being there to save him. Keflia was strong enough to show the weakness to UI Goku, but weak enough not to be a real danger to Goku, unlike Jiren.

Not sure how Jiren is a 'sterotype of shonen bad guys' since belittling someone and being arrogant isn't exclusive to 'bad guys' even in Shonen. Also, the only people he really belittled was Hit and his 'assassin pride', which would be insulting to a hero who preserve life, and Goku who is a fight manic. Everyone else, he is to the point on.
I don't think you understant what I was getting at. I'm saying the Kelfa fight should have been later on in the tournament and should have led into UI Goku's second round with Jiren, which would be the final act of the tournament, in contrast to it happening barely half way through the tournament and not really amounting to anything narratively after the fight is over.

First off, if Jiren cared about stopping Goku before he became a threat, why hasn't he knocked a weakened Goku off yet like you have suggested he would? His not mastered the form yet and is clearly at his weakest ebb. Surely it makes far more narrative sense for Goku's reattainment of UI to directly lead into the final Jiren fight instead of him having this massive period when Jiren could knock him off the ring with the wind from his fist but doesn't for no reason.

Also, the stamina thing could have played a part in the final fight against Jiren. Goku only has a limited amount of time to master UI perfectly to defeat Jiren, they could have this cool timer clock and have Goku carefully think about how he would his stamina throughout the fight while also focusing on mastering attacking. That could have been segwayed from the Kefla fight, where Goku needs to think of the most efficient way to defeat the crazed Kefla, so he could still have enough stamina to fight with Jiren.

He insulted and belittled everyone in the tournament by meditating directly in the middle of it when there were still dozens of capable fighters on the stage. How that isn't belittling or arrogant is beyond me.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by HeroR » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:24 pm

JazzMazz wrote: I don't think you understant what I was getting at. I'm saying the Kelfa fight should have been later on in the tournament and should have led into UI Goku's second round with Jiren, which would be the final act of the tournament, in contrast to it happening barely half way through the tournament and not really amounting to anything narratively after the fight is over.

First off, if Jiren cared about stopping Goku before he became a threat, why hasn't he knocked a weakened Goku off yet like you have suggested he would? His not mastered the form yet and is clearly at his weakest ebb. Surely it makes far more narrative sense for Goku's reattainment of UI to directly lead into the final Jiren fight instead of him having this massive period when Jiren could knock him off the ring with the wind from his fist but doesn't for no reason.

Also, the stamina thing could have played a part in the final fight against Jiren. Goku only has a limited amount of time to master UI perfectly to defeat Jiren, they could have this cool timer clock and have Goku carefully think about how he would his stamina throughout the fight while also focusing on mastering attacking. That could have been segwayed from the Kefla fight, where Goku needs to think of the most efficient way to defeat the crazed Kefla, so he could still have enough stamina to fight with Jiren.

He insulted and belittled everyone in the tournament by meditating directly in the middle of it when there were still dozens of capable fighters on the stage. How that isn't belittling or arrogant is beyond me.
Why should the fight be later? There is only so many minutes left here. I don't get this strange narrative that fans had since Jiren vs Goku of, 'things are going too fast'. The tournament was more than halfway over by the time Cali challenged Goku since Hit being KO was the halfway point time-wise. And it did amount to something narrative as has been pointed out.

I said if Goku fought Jiren again after getting UI a second time, he would have burnt through his stamina before he could master it as seen with Keflie and while Jiren may not directly attack Goku now, I doubt he would spare Goku for a second time.

And we don't know how the final battle will go, so anything you and I write is just speculative. Maybe Goku will only have a set time limit to used UI at its full power. And Goku 'needing to think' goes against what UI is.

It is arrogant, but not necessarily belittling. And there isn't 'dozen capable fighters'. At best there are half a dozen: Vegeta, Freeza, maybe Gohan and 17, and Kale in her control Super Saiyan forms. These are all people Toppo could take care of. The rest can be left up to Dypso.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by jplaya2023 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:05 am

finally that annoying girl is eliminated. please let rirbrianne be next.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Asura » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:10 am

I've watched the Kamehameha scene over and over, and I've gotta say it's probably my favorite moment in all of Super, and easily the best Kamehameha in the entire franchise.

That was some real sick Tony Hawk shit.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:15 am

Asura wrote:I've watched the Kamehameha scene over and over, and I've gotta say it's probably my favorite moment in all of Super, and easily the best Kamehameha in the entire franchise.

That was some real sick Tony Hawk shit.
That is an iconic way to end a fight. I really hope more fights have conclusions as satisfying and as well done as this later done the line.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:11 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Asura wrote:I've watched the Kamehameha scene over and over, and I've gotta say it's probably my favorite moment in all of Super, and easily the best Kamehameha in the entire franchise.

That was some real sick Tony Hawk shit.
That is an iconic way to end a fight. I really hope more fights have conclusions as satisfying and as well done as this later done the line.
And this wasn’t even the climax of the tournament! I really hope that they try and outdo themselves with a conclusion even more satisfying than that Kamehameha for the final fight of the tournament.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by amuroray » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:53 am

just saw this... thank god those 2 annoying girls are out.

Never want to see them again.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:55 am

amuroray wrote:just saw this... thank god those 2 annoying girls are out.

Never want to see them again.
Hopefully we won't have to if universe 6 is indeed on the chopping block in 118. :D

Though, that would make me sad, since I actually like Hit and Cabba.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by amuroray » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:03 am

JazzMazz wrote:
amuroray wrote:just saw this... thank god those 2 annoying girls are out.

Never want to see them again.
Hopefully we won't have to if universe 6 is indeed on the chopping block in 118. :D

Though, that would make me sad, since I actually like Hit and Cabba.
hit and cabba are the only 2 characters from that universe that are good and have had good progression.

Dont mind magetta for comedy purposes tbh

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:04 am

JazzMazz wrote:
amuroray wrote:just saw this... thank god those 2 annoying girls are out.

Never want to see them again.
Hopefully we won't have to if universe 6 is indeed on the chopping block in 118. :D

Though, that would make me sad, since I actually like Hit and Cabba.
It's a sacrifice worth making..
I would have preferred if both of them at least stayed unconscious a little while ( around 60 years ) after such an "intense" battle..
But nope, she gotta get up like she ain't even hurt..

But to be perfectly real, high chance Universe 6 is brought back we go to sadala and it's Cauliflowa time again..
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:15 am

Comments on this episode:

- I'm wondering if they're going to change the animation in the OP to show Ultra Instinct Goku fighting Jiren, since it's no longer a spoiler. They did change Buu to Freeza but then again that was a really sloppy edit so maybe they're not confident in doing it again.
- They really need to stop using so much environmental destruction because the arena is only so big... they won't have any of it left at this rate.
- "He's going all bwaah?" I wasn't aware that Goku was Hank Hill...
- Jiren... doesn't seem to care, Anat
- So wait, he absorbed Kefla's energy? But that makes no sense, it doesn't seem like she had her power drained or was weakened or anything. Also, SSJ1 Kefla's power equals the power of the Genki Dama from earlier, roughly? I mean, I guess that sort of makes sense... mainly due to 17 and Freeza
- Sorry Champa, she's a Saiyan. Finishing their opponents off before they can reveal their full power just isn't something they do.
- Kefla says she feels like she could destroy a universe with her current power, but that raises two problems - first of all, how would she know that? And second of all, in light of the facts that Goku and Beerus were threatening to destroy the universe when fighting at SSJG level, but SSJG Goku was being dominated by base Kefla, and (assuming the SEG multipliers still hold true) she's over 100 times more powerful now, how is it that she would only now have that power? Even granting that due to his fight with Jiren Goku was exhausted and the SSJG he used against Kefla wasn't close to his peak when fighting Beerus, she still overpowered SSJB and Kaio-ken on top of that, and... meh. Typical DBS inconsistency.
- What does Piccolo mean by surpassing Goku's earlier level? Does he mean SSJB Kaio-ken x20, the Genki Dama, or Ultra Instinct as used against Jiren?
- This also brings up another point - why hasn't anyone tried to win the tournament by smashing the entire arena and leaving only the part they were standing on intact? That would instantly ring out all other competitors, and considering all the damage that's been been done to it so far, you can't tell me none of them are capable of that.
- I'm pretty sure that he literally can't stop dodging, even if he wanted to. That's how Ultra Instinct works.
- Funny how Krillin, Roshi, and the others can all see what's going on perfectly...
- Again, why doesn't she just try what her Kaioshin suggested? Instead of melee attacks, go for a huge blast that encompasses everything around her - he can't dodge that. Or is it just Saiyan pride that makes her want to physically hit him?
- So far this is all fitting my theory that Jiren deliberately didn't eliminate Goku when he had the chance because he wants to see him become stronger and fight him once he masters his new power
- So I wonder, when you're in Ultra Instinct, is it like your body is completely on autopilot and you don't have any actual control over what you're doing? Or if you are making decisions, what do they actually involve?
- Even if his attacks aren't hurting her, they're sure knocking her around a lot, and that's really all he needs to do to win - knock her off the edge
- How much do you want to bet that, like every other form that drains stamina at a super fast rate when it's first introduced, eventually that won't be an issue anymore?
- I like the musical theme returning - I was kind of disappointed when it didn't appear when he transformed last episode
- Again, with all of the environmental destruction going on, I'm surprised that no stray attacks or blasts or anything have hit any of the spectators in the stands... I mean it would be cool if we had to see Whis or Vados deflecting a stray blast now and again
- So Ultra Instinct doesn't really up his durability? Or does Roshi not know what he's talking about?
- Again, instead of those inaccurate energy beams/whips/bolts, try just releasing one huge blast in every direction at once, sort of like what Piccolo did at the 23rd Budokai. Or is she actually worried about knocking off her Namekian comrades, or killing someone and disqualifying herself?
- At first I had no idea of what she meant by saying he can't dodge in mid-air, thinking 'what? Of course he can', but then I remembered the no flying rule - it's kind of telling that the fight choreography in this tournament has been such that you can't even tell said rule is in effect most of the time
- Yeah, that was a pretty cool scene, I'll agree
- How come the potara break but her clothes are intact (aside from the obvious out-of-universe reasons, that is)? Also it seems that destroying the earrings undoes the fusion. If Rou Kaioshin's earrings get destroyed, would he unfuse with the old witch?
- It will be kind of hard to do that if you and your universe get erased, Caulifla
- So are those two just overconfident thinking they can defeat the likes of Goku and Jiren, or are they actually strong enough to potentially do so?
- Maybe the key is not to deliberately attack, but to counterattack, since that seems more instinctual?
- Okay, wait a second - Vegeta figured out that Goku was using Ultra Instinct on his own, based on their training with Whis, meaning he never heard any of the discussions about it. But if he never heard them, how does he know what it's called now?
- What's with this ad for a DBS card game in English, including spoilers that are way ahead of the dub?
- Ribrianne gets another transformation? Also looks like she might finally get knocked out next episode

Anyway this episode was pretty great, despite a few problems
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by sintzu » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:17 am

JazzMazz wrote:
amuroray wrote:just saw this... thank god those 2 annoying girls are out.

Never want to see them again.
Hopefully we won't have to if universe 6 is indeed on the chopping block in 118. :D
Don't get too happy cause they'll be front and center if we get a Sadal arc.

When the idea was first brought up back during the Champa arc I couldn't be more excited but after seeing these 2 I hope it NEVER happens. Saiyans and their forms make the most $$$ though so I'll be shocked if it doesn't.
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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by percula » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:04 am

Fuwa had the best moment. Honestly, the godly/angelic trio of U6 is the funniest and my favourite.
It was a bit shocking/sad to see Kafla drop out, since I liked the girls and wished they stayed a bit longer (along with U6 and Champa :cry: ), but the fight and the Kamehameha were so good that I can't complain. U6 put up a great fight.
It's also nice to know that it wasn't just some tough and flashy fight - Goku helped Caulifla and Kale improve and get much stronger than they were at the beginning of the tournament, and they, as Kafla, helped him regain his strength and master UI more. I hope they'll have some friendly interactions in the future.
Really wish Jiren would talk more... We know so much more about him just from one appearance in the manga.

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by Yomi » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:25 am

Kishido wrote:
Merged Zamasu was non eternal fusiok cuz of Black.

And manga version had even a time limit... so why not simply breaking them

And what is the point of a second nerf
Is the Elder Kai's fusion not eternal because of the Witch? She's not a Kai you know.
Come on man, stop probing for plot holes, I don't even know why you would want to find them.

That just means the Manga had a plot hole the anime did not.
:clap:

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Re: Super Episode 116 (19 November 2017)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 am

If Kefla wasn't such a bland character this episode would have been cult. UI is fantastic, everytime it shows it rocks, really. And that Kamehameha... :)

Also really liked choregraphy, it somehow reminded me of the old old DB fights à la Goku/Tien, that was really nice to watch. I also like a lot that other thing they did with UI, as in hard to master with dodging being one thing but attacking wasn't so obvious, that was nice. :thumbup:

So this EP is teasing more than concluding in fact, will Vegeta attain UI? That interests me. What is Freeza's plan? That interests me too. What will they do with U6 Namekians? I really hope we can learn about them, as of now stakes for U6 are quite big so if we can learn about these would be great.

I still want Vegeta vs Toppo! :x

I hope Ribrianne gets thrown out next EP too because I hate her lol

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