Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

I dont get the issue
base kelfa > ssj god
Ssj kelfa=ssjb kkx20 +spirt bomb
Ss2 kefla >=< first intial UI goku
Her last attack was strong enough to threaten Ui goku
Seriously this fanbase really let's there bias shows

Kefla only managed to pose a bit of a threat to Goku UI when she used her last resort (a particularly cutting technique, like Kiezan) at the same time that she exploded with hatred (which temporarily increases the power of the Saiyans). Showing that he was still much weaker than UI Goku.
Besides that, any attack of Ki used exceeds the power of the user himself (as we saw in the fight against Raditz and Vegeta, for example).

And if you consider Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20, you should also consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Goku SSB KK x20 (which makes no sense), after all, SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ.
You can not interpret the scenes so literally (as this Whis speaks), you have to consider the context of it, otherwise it becomes simply inconsistent

Ssj Kefla holding back given she stated wanted to fight goku some more and she knocked him outta of ssjb kk with a kick
Whis stated her power in ssj rivaled ssjb kkx20 unless u can prove whis doesnt wtf hes talking about its clear as day to me ssj kefla=ssjb kkx20 Unless proven otherwise
ssj2 kefla is far stronger
The cognitive dissonance here is staggering in this place

It seems that you only know how to analyze the context of the scenes when it's convenient for you. It was clear that Kefla defeated Goku because he caught him unawares and because he no longer had the energy to maintain the Kaioken. A single punch of his made her arms tremble and another punch made her tremble to get up. Goku SSB tired> Kefla SSJ, this is undeniable.

She said she wanted to fight more only after Goku was defeated (easy) but it did not change the fact that even raising her Ki at the end of EP 115 she did not beat Goku SSB KK. And the talk of the Whis can have several interpretations and the coherent hands is that Kefla does not have the same amount of energy that the Genki Dama, if not Goku SSB KK tired also would have. But if you are to ignore this by personal preferences, then it is useless to discuss

[pacz360]

Proof or nothing on that one bruh
Unless we think whis doesn't know WTF he's talking about its obvious ssj kelfa=ssjbkkx20 goku plus spirit bomb via his words
Kefla was specifically compared to the spirit bomb goku used against jiren don't see any reason to believe it's inferior to ssjbkk

You are the one who thinks it's x20 even though there is nothing supporting it.

Yeah I'm sure goku would just use a standard ssjb kk with a spirit bomb against a guy who just kicked his ass viciously
End of the day whis statement says it
Ssj Kefla>=ssjbkkx20 goku Spirit bomb
Crying about it ain't gonna change it

[pacz360]

Kefla only managed to pose a bit of a threat to Goku UI when she used her last resort (a particularly cutting technique, like Kiezan) at the same time that she exploded with hatred (which temporarily increases the power of the Saiyans). Showing that he was still much weaker than UI Goku.
Besides that, any attack of Ki used exceeds the power of the user himself (as we saw in the fight against Raditz and Vegeta, for example).

And if you consider Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20, you should also consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Goku SSB KK x20 (which makes no sense), after all, SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ.
You can not interpret the scenes so literally (as this Whis speaks), you have to consider the context of it, otherwise it becomes simply inconsistent

Ssj Kefla holding back given she stated wanted to fight goku some more and she knocked him outta of ssjb kk with a kick
Whis stated her power in ssj rivaled ssjb kkx20 unless u can prove whis doesnt wtf hes talking about its clear as day to me ssj kefla=ssjb kkx20 Unless proven otherwise
ssj2 kefla is far stronger
The cognitive dissonance here is staggering in this place

It seems that you only know how to analyze the context of the scenes when it's convenient for you. It was clear that Kefla defeated Goku because he caught him unawares and because he no longer had the energy to maintain the Kaioken. A single punch of his made her arms tremble and another punch made her tremble to get up. Goku SSB tired> Kefla SSJ, this is undeniable.

She said she wanted to fight more only after Goku was defeated (easy) but it did not change the fact that even raising her Ki at the end of EP 115 she did not beat Goku SSB KK. And the talk of the Whis can have several interpretations and the coherent hands is that Kefla does not have the same amount of energy that the Genki Dama, if not Goku SSB KK tired also would have. But if you are to ignore this by personal preferences, then it is useless to discuss

Nope considering she could've been holding back not to mention nothing implies or even stayed goku dropped his guard crap as usual
Whis saying SSK Kefla rivaled the SSBKKx20 Spirit Bomb's power and broke through Goku's shell again as a result
Piccolo stating SSJ2 Kefla surpassed Goku's previous usage of UI and that he hoped Goku would draw further power out of UI to compete.
And considering goku having to use UI tells us other wise
Same can be said for you

[Bullza]

Yeah she definitely seems to be Ultra Instinct level.

Super Saiyan Kefla = Spirit Bomb > Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla >= Ultra Instinct Goku EP 110

[HeroR]

Yeah she definitely seems to be Ultra Instinct level.

Super Saiyan Kefla = Spirit Bomb > Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla >= Ultra Instinct Goku EP 110

Not sure about that one. I think UI Goku was stronger, but couldn't effectively used his power. Like his power was 10, but he could only hit with a force of 7.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Saying Goku must be only using Kaiokenx2 just because he doesn't specify the multiplier, such as against Kafla and Merged Zamasu, is proven wrong by him using x20 against Jiren without mentioning it. My guess is that he used x10 against Zamasu and x20 against Kafla.

[Bullza]

Well I also acted on the assumption that unless it's specified then Goku just used Kaioken x2. Not necessarily the case though from what it would seem.

So Goku could have used a much higher Kaioken when he dropped Merged Zamasu. I still wouldn't have thought it would have been any higher than x2 mind you.

[Hugo Boss]

Saying Goku must be only using Kaiokenx2 just because he doesn't specify the multiplier, such as against Kafla and Merged Zamasu, is proven wrong by him using x20 against Jiren without mentioning it. My guess is that he used x10 against Zamasu and x20 against Kafla.

But the proof came with someone else mentioning Goku was using 20-fold. If there is no mention of the level used, we are left in the dark.

[Helios518]

I'm pretty sure when he just says Kaioken that's when he's using only 2x but when he doesn't even say the name (like against Geran), that's when we're left in the dark unless its mentioned later.

[Noah]

I'm pretty sure when he just says Kaioken that's when he's using only 2x but when he doesn't even say the name (like against Geran), that's when we're left in the dark unless its mentioned later.

Who's Geran?

[Helios518]

I'm pretty sure when he just says Kaioken that's when he's using only 2x but when he doesn't even say the name (like against Geran), that's when we're left in the dark unless its mentioned later.

Who's Geran?

Jiren's name pun is Renji which translates into range. Move the Ge in front of the word (like you would the Ji for renji) and you get Geran.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Ssj Kefla holding back given she stated wanted to fight goku some more and she knocked him outta of ssjb kk with a kick
Whis stated her power in ssj rivaled ssjb kkx20 unless u can prove whis doesnt wtf hes talking about its clear as day to me ssj kefla=ssjb kkx20 Unless proven otherwise
ssj2 kefla is far stronger
The cognitive dissonance here is staggering in this place

It seems that you only know how to analyze the context of the scenes when it's convenient for you. It was clear that Kefla defeated Goku because he caught him unawares and because he no longer had the energy to maintain the Kaioken. A single punch of his made her arms tremble and another punch made her tremble to get up. Goku SSB tired> Kefla SSJ, this is undeniable.

She said she wanted to fight more only after Goku was defeated (easy) but it did not change the fact that even raising her Ki at the end of EP 115 she did not beat Goku SSB KK. And the talk of the Whis can have several interpretations and the coherent hands is that Kefla does not have the same amount of energy that the Genki Dama, if not Goku SSB KK tired also would have. But if you are to ignore this by personal preferences, then it is useless to discuss

Nope considering she could've been holding back not to mention nothing implies or even stayed goku dropped his guard crap as usual
Whis saying SSK Kefla rivaled the SSBKKx20 Spirit Bomb's power and broke through Goku's shell again as a result
Piccolo stating SSJ2 Kefla surpassed Goku's previous usage of UI and that he hoped Goku would draw further power out of UI to compete.
And considering goku having to use UI tells us other wise
Same can be said for you

And does it need to be said that Goku was defeated because Kefla caught him off guard / unprepared? Just watch the anime to see that.

'' Kefla could be holding herself '' is just speculation of you. She proved to be clearly inferior to Goku SSB KK and even after seeing that power (when she took that punch), she preferred to distract Goku to catch him by surprise and not simply to increase his power.

And why are you saying that Kefla SSJ = Genki Dama + SSB KK x20? Genki Dama has no relation to Blue Kaioken, Goku only used this transformation to push the technique against Jiren.
And once again, I want you to explain. If Goku SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ, then as SSJ Kefla> SSB KK x20?
The most logical conclusion is that Whis DOES NOT refer to the amount of energy when comparing Kefla with GK and even if it were comparable, it could be 20x weaker than GK itself (just as Blue was comparable to GoDs and was more than 20x weaker than them).

UI Goku did not even have to increase his power to face Kefla. And it has nothing indicating that it UI Goku Ep 116> UI Goku EP 110. It's the same thing

[ZombieVito]

Saying Goku must be only using Kaiokenx2 just because he doesn't specify the multiplier, such as against Kafla and Merged Zamasu, is proven wrong by him using x20 against Jiren without mentioning it. My guess is that he used x10 against Zamasu and x20 against Kafla.

I have been thinking the same lately.

I does make more sense for him to use KKx10 with Zamasu and KKx20 with SS Kefla. The latter makes even more sense since she was stated to be equal to the Genkidama that was stronger that KKx20 Goku.

[Guesswhoo]

Goku couldn't win against Jiren with his own power so he had to borrow it from others on top of his max power, which was the whole point of that Genkidama. So Goku's trump card was Genkidama + Kaioken x20, not the Genkidama only.
Let's not forget that it was a completely drained SSB Goku that tanked the Genkidama explosion.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Saying Goku must be only using Kaiokenx2 just because he doesn't specify the multiplier, such as against Kafla and Merged Zamasu, is proven wrong by him using x20 against Jiren without mentioning it. My guess is that he used x10 against Zamasu and x20 against Kafla.

I have been thinking the same lately.

I does make more sense for him to use KKx10 with Zamasu and KKx20 with SS Kefla. The latter makes even more sense since she was stated to be equal to the Genkidama that was stronger that KKx20 Goku.

No, this is wrong.

Goku did not specify the multiplier precisely to create a suspense situation, similar to Saga Freeza, in which Kuririn says that one does not have to worry because Goku could use the Kaioken x20 and Whis confirms that he is already using it.

And this becomes clear when he was pushing the Genki Dama into Jiren, he uses the Kaioken x10 and x20, this time specifying just for us to know.
So it is clear that against Zamasu and Kefla he only used the normal Kaioken.

If in the fight against Kefla he did not even have the energy to keep Blue activated for long, how would he use a Kaioken increased 10 times? It makes no sense

Goku couldn't win against Jiren with his own power so he had to borrow it from others on top of his max power, which was the whole point of that Genkidama. So Goku's trump card was Genkidama + Kaioken x20, not the Genkidama only.
Let's not forget that it was a completely drained SSB Goku that tanked the Genkidama explosion.

The point is that it makes no sense to say that Kefla was compared to a Genki Dama + SSB KK x20. She was compared ONLY to the technique itself, not to someone using it

[Miracles]

In my perspective, and you are not obligated to agree, Piccolo was talking about the whole fight. Also, you even said “maybe Goku could get stronger if Kafla surpassed Ultra Instinct”, but Goku didn’t need to power-up further by his own admission.

But Goku IN UI did power up and continued to do so. Piccolo wasn't talking about their whole fight cause his subject was UI Goku and Kefla inciting each other to power up. Then after Kefla responds to UI Goku's powering uo, Piccolo states UI Goku being at a disadvantage BY hoping THIS current UI Goku could draw out more power WHILE powering up. If Kefla was only above KKBluex20 Goku [Despite the truth Whis already stated she rivaled Genki Dama in SS. Which was stronger than KKx20 Blue], Piccolo wouldn't hope UI Goku could draw out his power even FURTHER due to Kefla surpassing his former level of UI.

BTW, HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO EVERYBODY!!!

I think that all this was simply too implied to be stated with such certainty
Aside from no one else in the arena being surprised that Kefla had supposedly reached a level that only 2 warriors in the tournament had hit (not even Vegeta, who was surprised when he saw Goku with that power). Piccolo in no time says explicitly that she overcame UI Goku (a phrase that would certainly have an impact), on the contrary, was only said to have surpassed Goku's previous level, and this can be interpreted in several ways.

Even if you consider the context this is not clear, after all Goku UI did not even need to increase his power to face Kefla SSJ2 (neither was stronger than in the fight against Jiren) and Kefla only represented the least threat with his last resources in which she was exploding in anger.
The speech of Genki Dama is even more implicit and becomes incoherent if you want to talk that in amount of energy, Kefla SSJ = GK, because you need to also consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ.

I simply put her on the SSB tier - SSB KK, since everything on EP 116 was implied

Well you can't put Kefla on that tier cause that goes against the story's clear statements. Kefla was holding back against KKBlue Goku anyway. So him being tired is irrelevant.
Kefla was stated CLEARLY by Whis to be just as strong as the Genki dama. Meaning she is automatically stronger than KKx20 Blue Goku IN SSJ.
Piccolo hoping UI Goku [NOT KKBlue Goku] could draw out more power cause he was at a disadvantage due to Kelfa's power up to SSJ2. UI Goku powering up further DID confirm Piccolo's statement.
It's all clearly stated and shown, the statements are backed by the actions. Kefla IS stronger than the former UI Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

A lot of disagrement on super keflas power it seems. So to calm a lot of people down I'm going to state something that most people will agree with. Currently, Jiren is the only mortal thats equal to, if not superior to God of Destruction level. It was made pretty clear that Goku in UI was never even near Jirens full power, especially since against kefla, UI Goku was more powerful than against jiren, and goku will still improve a lot before his final fight against jiren. And heck, we dont even know if goku alone will defeat him, or if jiren will even be defeated.

[Noah]

A lot of disagrement on super keflas power it seems. So to calm a lot of people down I'm going to state something that most people will agree with. Currently, Jiren is the only mortal thats equal to, if not superior to God of Destruction level. It was made pretty clear that Goku in UI was never even near Jirens full power, especially since against kefla, UI Goku was more powerful than against jiren, and goku will still improve a lot before his final fight against jiren. And heck, we dont even know if goku alone will defeat him, or if jiren will even be defeated.

Stated by whom?

[Kenneth La Torre]

A lot of disagrement on super keflas power it seems. So to calm a lot of people down I'm going to state something that most people will agree with. Currently, Jiren is the only mortal thats equal to, if not superior to God of Destruction level. It was made pretty clear that Goku in UI was never even near Jirens full power, especially since against kefla, UI Goku was more powerful than against jiren, and goku will still improve a lot before his final fight against jiren. And heck, we dont even know if goku alone will defeat him, or if jiren will even be defeated.

Stated by whom?

Toppo. At the end, he comments on how goku has gotten better, and how he will continue to improve. Goku himself also comments that he is getting the hang of UI.

[Hugo Boss]

A lot of disagrement on super keflas power it seems. So to calm a lot of people down I'm going to state something that most people will agree with. Currently, Jiren is the only mortal thats equal to, if not superior to God of Destruction level. It was made pretty clear that Goku in UI was never even near Jirens full power, especially since against kefla, UI Goku was more powerful than against jiren, and goku will still improve a lot before his final fight against jiren. And heck, we dont even know if goku alone will defeat him, or if jiren will even be defeated.

Stated by whom?

Toppo. At the end, he comments on how goku has gotten better, and how he will continue to improve. Goku himself also comments that he is getting the hang of UI.

This doesn’t mean he was talking about power though. Also, Dyspo did comment os his movements being more polished/sharped.