Goku's SSJ power on Namek

[kaioken12]

A friend of mine came up with an interesting question, I thought perhaps someone over here has an answer to that.


When normal Goku fought Freeza, and they were somewhat "even" (with Freeza having the advantage), Freeza told Goku that he only used 1% of his real power, then goes to ~50% and kicks Goku's a** with ease.

Then Goku transforms to SSJ eventually gaining 50 times more power.
Wouldn't Freeza have gotten 50 times power as well by going from 1% to 50%?
Or is this 50 times-thing false information?

And if this "50 times" is correct, why is Goku stronger than or as strong as 100% Freeza?
Just because Freeza lost too much energy in his 100%-state?
But then again, SSJ drains energy, too - maybe not as fast as Freeza's "over limit" power though, but yeah, it does...

Does anyone have a good explanation for all this?

[Gyt Kaliba]

I never thought of that before. Hmm...Frieza could have been bluffing I suppose, but he wasn't when he told them all about his higher power level and his three transformations. It seems like Frieza saw no point in lying to his opponents, as he was normally strong enough to get away with telling them the truth and then fighting them. So I don't think he was lying, for what that's worth.

It must be the power drain of Frieza's 100% form. Look how long it took to transform into that compared to the relatively quick change from normal to Super Saiyan for Goku. This is all guesswork on my part, but that's the only thing I can attribute it to.

[I like DB(Z) (...)]

Hmm... You do have a point there... but how do you know that Goku's power increase ONLY made him 50 times stronger?

[kaioken12]

Hmm... You do have a point there... but how do you know that Goku's power increase ONLY made him 50 times stronger?

Hm, I am not sure, but I read it several times in various places :/



About Freeza bluffing: I remember Goku stating something like "He isn't lying" *shocked* at this point

[Terra-jin]

Does Freeza actually mention using only 1%? I've never seen that in the manga so it could be the answer to your (quite original) question.

Also, the Daizenshuu list Freeza as having 3,500,000 in his true form, initially. Compared to the 6,000,000 he has at 50%, that's not 1%

Now I must add that I'm not completely sure about these figures. There's also the confusion about whether he has 120,000,000 at 100% or 12,000,000, so...

[Rocketman]

1% is a dub mistake.

Even if Freeza's full power was 120,000,000 like the Daizenshuu says, 1% would be 1,200,000 or about 2nd Form Freeza's power.

[Herms]

Daizenshuu 7 lists Freeza’s 100% full power as 120,000,000. This is completely and totally indisputable, and is the only official measure of Freeza’s full power (whether that number is sensible or completely bonkers is another matter).

Apparently, someone somewhere mistakenly listed his power as only 12,000,000 and the mistake just got repeated and repeated (Greg of The Ultimate DBZ Information Site is generally blamed for this, since he listed it as 12,000,000 and everyone shamelessly copied from him back in the day).

Daizenshuu 7 also lists Goku’s battle power before going Super Saiyan as being 3,000,000, and his power afterwards as being 150,000,000. This is where the idea that becoming Super Saiyan makes you 50 times more powerful comes from.

[kaioken12]

Yeah, that are some ideas that kinda explain it very good.
As for me, I am satisfied and enlightened with these answers, thank you very much for helping

[DemonKingPiccolo]

Freeza stating that he was only using 1% was strictly a dub line. In the manga, he said "a fraction". That's where the confusion comes from.

[Akira]

Here's what I have, if it helps or confuses more, I dunno. Battle powers for the fight with Freeza:

Battle with Freeza:

42,000 – Nail
1,000,000 – Piccolo (merged with Nail)

530,000 – Freeza (form 1)
1,000,000 – Freeza (form 2)
1,100,000 – Freeza (form 3)
1,200,000 – Freeza (final form 1%)
30,000,000 – Freeza (final form 25%)
60,000,000 – Freeza (final form 50%)
90,000,000 – Freeza (final form 75%)
120,000,000 – Freeza (final form 100%)

3,000,000 – Son Goku
30,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10)
60,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x20)
150,000,000 – Super Saiyan Son Goku

I think Freeza was using 1% when he fought Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin in final form. He taunted them with that 1% stuff. As you can see from these these lists, it shows Goku with a Base level of 3 million when he arrived at the fight. Of course, he suppressed his power intially, and he and Freeza had their "warmup bout". Goku probably held back as he fought Freeza at 1% or whatever.

Then they agree to fight seriously and not sandbag. Goku removes weighted clothing and starts fighting at 3 million. Freeza says that 25% of his maximum is all that is needed and goes to 30,000,000. Goku says he still has an ace up his sleave for Freeza, and Freeza says he knows, that Goku can up his power times 5, or times 10 at the most. Goku realizes then that Freeza has his number.

The Kaioken x10 ace is only enough for Goku to match Freeza at 25%, then Goku realizes he isn't bluffing when Freeza goes to 50% and kicks the crap out of Goku. Freeza is trying to drown Goku, when he comes back and makes one more desperation Kaioken x20 Kamehameha to try an win. That one move matched Goku with Freeza at 50% briefly. Then it was Genki Dama or bust pretty much.

You know the rest of the fight and how the levels progresses. Hopefully that kinda lays it out when they were at what levels during that fight and you can understand the percentages and powerups better now.

[Conan the SSJ]

HI think Freeza was using 1% when he fought Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin in final form. He taunted them with that 1% stuff. As you can see from these these lists, it shows Goku with a Base level of 3 million when he arrived at the fight. Of course, he suppressed his power intially, and he and Freeza had their "warmup bout". Goku probably held back as he fought Freeza at 1% or whatever.

You may've missed the point, I'm not sure (didn't get much sleep last night). But the whole "1%" issue was a dub-only mistranslation. You seriously can't take that as worth anything, as both the Viz manga and Simmons anime translation have Freeza point out "a fraction". From Freeza's point of view, a fraction could mean anything in this status of battle. He could've been at 25%, 30%, 5%, hell we really don't know. Although, if someone were to do the math under the assumption that "at a fraction" Freeza was equal to max. w/o Kaioken Goku (3,000,000), then we might get an accurate guess. Otherwise, it's open to interpretation what percentage Freeza was using before going to 50%, simple as that.

[Tyro]

1,000,000 – Freeza (form 2)

Freeza directly stated he was over a million as soon as he reached his second suppression form. Where are his two power ups?

1,000,000 – Piccolo (merged with Nail)

Piccolo (post-assimilation with Nail) was stronger than Freeza (second suppression, first power up). Stated and shown.

1,100,000 – Freeza (form 3)

Holy crap, are you kidding me? How did a transformation only increase Freeza's ki by 100,000?

Freeza powered up once again after being on nearly equal footing with Piccolo (post-assimilation with Nail), but Piccolo had the advantage as stated by Vegeta. After this power up he easily owned Piccolo in the battle. Piccolo stands up after Freeza finally stops, takes off his weighted clothing and declares that now he will get serious in this fight he is about to have with Freeza once again. Speculation that he will be able to win, possibly easily. Freeza transforms, owns him, nearly kills him, end of story.

60,000,000 – Freeza (final form 50%)
60,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x20)

Son Goku using the 20-fold Kaio-ken and Kamehameha, a technique that increases the user's power during the duration the duration the technique is being performed, didn't even badly injure Freeza who was only using half of his power. All Freeza ended up getting was mad and a burnt hand.

120,000,000 – Freeza (final form 100%)
150,000,000 – Super Saiyan Son Goku

Just running some numbers by you.

Vegeta (24,000) vs. Zarbon (usually estimated to be 22,000) = a 1.09090909x difference in power. Vegeta easily bested Zarbon, just not as easily as he bested Dodoria. How can there be a 1.25x difference between SSj Goku and Freeza and Freeza still being able to fight Goku? A 1.25 difference is bigger than the difference between Vegeta (24,000) and Dodoria (usually estimated at 20,000 - 21,000). Freeza either needs to be higher or you need to put "(burnt out ki)" by his name.

[Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece]

I think your percentages are wrong. In the anime Freeza says that he was only at like 70% power, not 50%.

[Casual Matt]

Actually, I believe that Freeza stated that he only used 70% after he powered up a bit and launched an attack on a Super Saiyan Goku, so I think he was just referring to that attack. (This was shortly before he powered up to 100%.) Beforehand, when he was just toying with Goku, he said he was using 50%.

[Tyro]

When SSj Goku flew towards Freeza, Freeza repelled Goku with a kiai and stated "that wasn't even three-quarters of my full power!"

[Casual Matt]

When SSj Goku flew towards Freeza, Freeza repelled Goku with a kiai and stated "that wasn't even three-quarters of my full power!"

Was that the manga? I saw the episode just today and he actually said 70%. Of course, the two still go hand in hand.

[Tyro]

Yes, yes it was. That quote was word for word, too.

[Akira]

WHOA, chill a second guys. I made that list like two years ago, it is CLOSE to correct anyway, but obviously needs some tweaking.

Even if the actual percentages Freeza used are different, and I can change that list to reflect that, those percentages of his power are still accurate. Mathmatically anyway, they are what his power would be at those percentages. If it was 70% and not 75%, (that seems right actually, that he said 70 and not 75) regardless, that figure is still correct for what 75% would be. So jump my case for listing the wrong percentage, but at least give me credit for having the correct math done to go with what I have listed and not just what I think it "Should be" or what "I think" like so many others do when making such lists.

I will update it soon, just so I don't take another flame barrage. At least give me credit for going about it the right way.

[caejones]

o.o

How power differences work is very confusing. Actually, using something like the difference between powers to determine who pwns with what general ease, I wound up concluding SSJ3 to be around 1.5 billion (Which I don't like... but like I said, just using random percentage crap based on who is equal or superior to who).

As for the Freeza fight... The second and third forms probably need some upward-pushing; Freeza did state his power in his second form was over one million, and since Piccolo fused with Nail managed to deal with that form with ease...

Everythig with Freeza's final form is fine? (Anyone remember that time someone broke down the Goku Vs Freeza fight in detail and thereby confirmed the powers given there?)

[Akira]

Okay guys, I've been working on this some. Here's what I've got for Freeza, and I will explain my logic for each.

530,000 – Freeza (Form 1)
1,060,000 – Freeza (Form 2)
1,200,000 – Freeza (Final Form 1%)
30,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 25%)
60,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 50%)
84,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 70%)
120,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 100%)

I recalculated what the 70% battle power was, which was easy enough math to do. We know Form 2 is just over a million. Form 1 was a power conserving form, and was roughly half of Form 2. That brings the number to 1,060,000, which is exactly double form 1 Battle power. Makes logical sense to me, and follows the things that are said about the connections between Form 1 and Form 2.

Now, I got that stuff straightened out to perfection, but the real question with Freeza is what the battle power for Form 3 was. We can make guesses on what any one of us thinks it "Should" be or whatnot, but let's look at the facts. There really is only a small gap between 1% of Form 4 and the power of Form 2. Freeza needed enough to overcome Piccolo, but quickly decides to go to form 4 anyway, so it is more a transitional form than anything else. It must not really yield that much more of a power gain over form 2, or else he wouldn't have felt uneasy about taking on Piccolo, Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan with it. It doesn't make any sense for it to be anything above the minimum of Form 4, so I actually think I was close before with my estimate. It has to be somewhere around 1,190,000 or so. Any thoughts on this, or additional information you'd like to share?

Also take note, that Gohan was able to rage and momentarily gain an upper hand on Form 2, then raged again on Form 3 and almost push it into the ground. I use this again as evidence that there really is not a huge difference between 2 and 3. Other viewpoints and things I have not thought of are welcomed. I want to get this list corrected.