Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
The Genki Dama ending is a complete rip off of the Buu arc
Is it really a rip off if it's copying itself. This isn't a legit criticism. It's people looking for something else to dislike. Look, there's plenty to dislike about GT, but Goku using a strategy that worked in the past from an even greater number of people is a sound strategy.
It's not a popular opinion, but I like the 2 star Dragon. I thought it was clever that he's not that strong but that's not where his power lies.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
The Genki Dama ending is a complete rip off of the Buu arc
Is it really a rip off if it's copying itself. This isn't a legit criticism. It's people looking for something else to dislike. Look, there's plenty to dislike about GT, but Goku using a strategy that worked in the past from an even greater number of people is a sound strategy.
It's not a popular opinion, but I like the 2 star Dragon. I thought it was clever that he's not that strong but that's not where his power lies.
What I literally said right after that was, "it still works" and "it's different enough to where it can sort of stand on its own." I'm not hating on it or looking for something to dislike. I guess a better word would have been unoriginal.
I also like the 2-Star Dragon. He's a dirty liar and a double crosser. I liked his downfall.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
The Genki Dama ending is a complete rip off of the Buu arc
Is it really a rip off if it's copying itself. This isn't a legit criticism. It's people looking for something else to dislike. Look, there's plenty to dislike about GT, but Goku using a strategy that worked in the past from an even greater number of people is a sound strategy.
It's not a popular opinion, but I like the 2 star Dragon. I thought it was clever that he's not that strong but that's not where his power lies.
What I literally said right after that was, "it still works" and "it's different enough to where it can sort of stand on its own." I'm not hating on it or looking for something to dislike. I guess a better word would have been unoriginal.
I also like the 2-Star Dragon. He's a dirty liar and a double crosser. I liked his downfall.
Are we talking about the same Evil Dragon? The Two Star Dragon is the first one they fight whose toxic emanations sap people's strength. The Three Star Dragon is the ice dragon and 4 Star Dragon's brother.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
It wasn't that bad and would likely be valued way higher on its own, but following DBZ and making the key mistakes it did there's really no wonder it got this reputation. In comparsion, it's not that Super doesn't have its own bag of problems, but it manages to avoid some grave mistakes GT did as a continuation of DBZ - a.k.a. what the majority of the core, as well as more casual fans, actually wanted. Sorry original-DB lovers but a kid Goku on comedy adventures was not what people wanted after the grandesque action saga of DBZ. I still don't get why Toei thought it was a good idea. For a TV special or anniversary movie sure, but not a new mainline TV series that was suppoused to carry on the phenomenon of the show (which became a phenomenon with DBZ, not og-DB)
Basaku wrote:Sorry original-DB lovers but a kid Goku on comedy adventures was not what people wanted after the grandesque action saga of DBZ.
Most of us are DB and Kid Goku fans yet we didn't want that. It made 0 sense to cover ground that was already covered and far better. They didn't even bother to be original in the first arc and copied some of Toriyama's plots.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
As always, I quite like GT in spite of its faults, for what an atmospheric, nostalgic, stylish, and shockingly creatively coherent/unsafe product it managed to be despite its corporate origins.
My biggest misgiving is its treatment of Pan (not in personality, but in narrative roles), and I absolutely think she should have gone Super Saiyan. Recently translated interviews with both a series producer and writer have shed a lot of light on both the elements I like and dislike. The producer interview revealed that decisions like Pan's recurring role of needing rescuing and lack of Super Saiyan really were due to as outdated and sexist modes of thinking as they would appear, but the writer interview revealed what a creatively driven team was behind the series' execution in spite of less tasteful elements handed down from above.
In all, it's a much more interesting, engaging series than it has any right to be, and one I never mind returning too.
Re: Yi Xing-Long and rectangular chins: Hard to fault GT for those jaw lines, since they were right out of Toriyama's style at the time, but Yi Xing-Long is indeed a terrible final villain.
Cipher wrote:My biggest misgiving is its treatment of Pan, I absolutely think she should have gone Super Saiyan.
I think she should've been more useful and maybe having something the others didn't but not giving her Ssj was the right choice as milking the form is the worst thing currently going on in Super and something a good amount of fans didn't like about Goten & Trunks (getting Ssj so early).
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
sintzu wrote:I think she should've been more useful and maybe having something the others didn't but not giving her Ssj was the right choice as milking the form is the worst thing currently going on in Super and something a good amount of fans didn't like about Goten & Trunks (getting Ssj so early).
It's something I'm okay with in isolation, but when even her great grandchild Goku Jr. gets it, it's a little messed up that the one character it passes by is also the only modern female Saiyan.
At any rate, at least giving her some sort of unique power-up might have helped. I'm not a battle-power maniac and don't think everyone needs to be punching at Goku's weight, but the gendered elements of the choice are too glaring.
ABED wrote:Is it really a rip off if it's copying itself. This isn't a legit criticism. It's people looking for something else to dislike. Look, there's plenty to dislike about GT, but Goku using a strategy that worked in the past from an even greater number of people is a sound strategy.
It's not a popular opinion, but I like the 2 star Dragon. I thought it was clever that he's not that strong but that's not where his power lies.
What I literally said right after that was, "it still works" and "it's different enough to where it can sort of stand on its own." I'm not hating on it or looking for something to dislike. I guess a better word would have been unoriginal.
I also like the 2-Star Dragon. He's a dirty liar and a double crosser. I liked his downfall.
Are we talking about the same Evil Dragon? The Two Star Dragon is the first one they fight whose toxic emanations sap people's strength. The Three Star Dragon is the ice dragon and 4 Star Dragon's brother.
Wait, is he? This whole time I thought the 2-star was the ice dragon... my memory on their names is pretty rusty. Sorry for the confusion. I actually like the 2-Star Dragon too. He's a bit better than the other three introduced before the 4-star, but he's still not that great.
sintzu wrote:I think she should've been more useful and maybe having something the others didn't
It would have been interesting if she were able to, say, tap into a Gohan-style "ultimate" form without having to go through the whole ritual first. Would have allowed her to punch way above her weight and give her that "Special something" that makes her unique and suggests that she's a gifted fighter. And you wouldn't have to figure out how to do vertical female hair like they were afraid of doing! : D
He's a bit better than the other three introduced before the 4-star, but he's still not that great.
Agreed, though it gives them somewhere to go with the dragons.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Honestly, I always thought 2 and 5(2 is the toxic one, 5 is he electricity one) were the only bad dragons. And honestly, I think the only problem with them is that their episodes were a bit meh, which doesn't end up being a problem really, since 5 is only one episode, and 2 is only an episode and a bit... And really, their concepts are pretty solid; 2 is weak, but wins by draining your power, and his whole thing is that he ruins the ecology of the world around him; 5 is a formidable opponent who can gain power from electricity, but is completely wrecked by water...
They're not that bad, just their scripts were a little half-baked.
All the other dragons were at least good, IMO. 3 and 4 were damn awesome, 1 was really cool, 7(The absorb one) was a cool idea, and honestly I just straight like him and his two episodes; I guess you have to like Pan to like his episodes... Anyway, that leaves 6(The water one), who was pretty cool, and her defeat was really interesting.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
ABED wrote:But logically, it makes no sense that Nappa would've stood a chance against any of our heroes at that point. I'm not saying he wasn't a great villain back in the day, but he wasn't the big bad of that arc, nor were 19 or 20. Vegeta made VERY short work of 19 and Goku wasn't at his best.
It's less that he was dealt with easily and more that there is so much potential with all these past villains coming back and having them all be essentially one shotted. Nappa had such a strong tie to Vegeta and was the main source of destruction in the Saiyan battle that you would think he'd at least get a line of dialogue.
The Genki Dama ending is a complete rip off of the Buu arc
Is it really a rip off if it's copying itself. This isn't a legit criticism. It's people looking for something else to dislike. Look, there's plenty to dislike about GT, but Goku using a strategy that worked in the past from an even greater number of people is a sound strategy.
It's not a popular opinion, but I like the 2 star Dragon. I thought it was clever that he's not that strong but that's not where his power lies.
It's a sound strategy, but the execution was off imo. If they formulated the plan and it was:
Goku: this guys tough, we don't have the power to beat him, we need way more than we could ever do on our own.
Vegeta: Well remember how we beat Boo, we don't need to use only our power.
Goku: Good idea. King Kai, help out with this.
Instead Goku just comes out of the abyss with it and then casually mentions that he did the exact same thing and then even more quickly gets the power from the rest of the universe. In the Boo arc it was actually a process and an ordeal. In GT it was "oh they are doing this again". And it was also the only time the finish to a major arc fight was both a repeat and formulated off screen.
Also in context it was Goku fighting a foe who absorbed other beings to gain more power, him and Vegeta fusing and getting cocky and not finishing the job, then the genki dama. It was very similar and not done with the same care as the Boo arc.
It's a sound strategy, but the execution was off imo. If they formulated the plan and it was:
Goku: this guys tough, we don't have the power to beat him, we need way more than we could ever do on our own.
Vegeta: Well remember how we beat Boo, we don't need to use only our power.
Goku: Good idea. King Kai, help out with this.
Instead Goku just comes out of the abyss with it and then casually mentions that he did the exact same thing and then even more quickly gets the power from the rest of the universe. In the Boo arc it was actually a process and an ordeal. In GT it was "oh they are doing this again". And it was also the only time the finish to a major arc fight was both a repeat and formulated off screen.
Also in context it was Goku fighting a foe who absorbed other beings to gain more power, him and Vegeta fusing and getting cocky and not finishing the job, then the genki dama. It was very similar and not done with the same care as the Boo arc.
Disagree on all counts. Do you just want a direct copy? So what if it was done off screen? It was a welcome surprise and not a deus ex machina.
Gogeta getting cocky wasn't the same. The big difference is that in the Buu arc, he wasn't cocky. He was confident. He was intentionally wasting time so he could get absorbed.
there is so much potential with all these past villains coming back and having them all be essentially one shotted. Nappa had such a strong tie to Vegeta and was the main source of destruction in the Saiyan battle that you would think he'd at least get a line of dialogue.
There really wasn't much potential. They were all villains that had long since been surpassed, with the exception of Rildo. If I recall, Nappa did get a line, but he didn't have much of a strong connection to Vegeta. Vegeta killed him without a second thought when he felt he was useless. I wish people would stop judging things mostly by comparison to some vague ideas of what they think could've or should've happened.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
The villains escaping has potential (phrase of the day with GT), but only if you focus on them for a while so that we get into their headspace and know where they're at beforehand. If you just show them escaping and THEN try to figure out where they are mentally at this point, it's already too late because they're going away in a second. RoF is kinda-sorta similar to that stuff in that way, but what makes it work is that A) The movie is almost about Frieza more than it is about any of the other main characters, and B) He's the only villain in it, rather than literally everybody. Thus the film explores that he didn't learn a single thing from the first time he was defeated and why he was defeated the first time around.
But like someone else mentioned, the idea is cute. At this point the show is wrapping up, so throwing every major villain at the characters is sort of like a look back at how far the heroes have come in regards to everybody they defeated, from Commander Red to Cell, before you introduce the Shadow Dragons as the final boss of the franchise.
It's a sound strategy, but the execution was off imo. If they formulated the plan and it was:
Goku: this guys tough, we don't have the power to beat him, we need way more than we could ever do on our own.
Vegeta: Well remember how we beat Boo, we don't need to use only our power.
Goku: Good idea. King Kai, help out with this.
Instead Goku just comes out of the abyss with it and then casually mentions that he did the exact same thing and then even more quickly gets the power from the rest of the universe. In the Boo arc it was actually a process and an ordeal. In GT it was "oh they are doing this again". And it was also the only time the finish to a major arc fight was both a repeat and formulated off screen.
Also in context it was Goku fighting a foe who absorbed other beings to gain more power, him and Vegeta fusing and getting cocky and not finishing the job, then the genki dama. It was very similar and not done with the same care as the Boo arc.
Disagree on all counts. Do you just want a direct copy? So what if it was done off screen? It was a welcome surprise and not a deus ex machina.
Gogeta getting cocky wasn't the same. The big difference is that in the Buu arc, he wasn't cocky. He was confident. He was intentionally wasting time so he could get absorbed.
there is so much potential with all these past villains coming back and having them all be essentially one shotted. Nappa had such a strong tie to Vegeta and was the main source of destruction in the Saiyan battle that you would think he'd at least get a line of dialogue.
There really wasn't much potential. They were all villains that had long since been surpassed, with the exception of Rildo. If I recall, Nappa did get a line, but he didn't have much of a strong connection to Vegeta. Vegeta killed him without a second thought when he felt he was useless. I wish people would stop judging things mostly by comparison to some vague ideas of what they think could've or should've happened.
1. When it comes out of nowhere it's just retread. There's no substance behind it. It's literally the exact same strategy used against Boo except it's done off screen so the audience doesn't see it. In the Boo arc it had meaning because we saw the formation of it and how hard it was to execute the plan. In the Shadow Dragon arc it was just borderline patchwork designed to figure out a way to beat Omega. Literally about 6 minutes pass from the big reveal to the destruction of Omega. It's not particularly welcome or clever, it's a redo and something they quite easily could have done with any villain in GT, it's just they set up the heroes in an unwinnable scenario and then needed to re use an old set up to get them out.
2. You're hanging on semantics on this one. Okay Gogeta was cocky and Vegito was just acting cocky. Gotenks was cocky for that matter. It was still a similar set up of an unbeatable regenerating villain who the heroes are having a hard time putting down, a fusion used to turn the tide but ultimately failing, then a last ditch genki dama that was created by using the spare energy of the world (or in this case universe) to finally end things. It wasn't a particular original or inspired final battle.
3. As far as Nappa and the villains you are thinking purely in terms of fighting. These villains all had characters that could have been utilized in some form or fashion beyond just being old designs with no real substance behind them getting mostly one shotted by the heroes. A good chunk of these villains would have never engaged in open combat against foes they were that outmatched by. Nappa fine because he was always not the brightest bulb. There was so much more potential than a bunch of characterless false obstacles for the heroes until the real fight started. This was the penultimate arc and you just gave yourself an excuse to revisit the old hits of the franchise before the series ended and it just amounted to a whole lot of nothing kills.
