If Android 18's beat-down of Vegeta happened today.

[Kanassa]

The difference is that 17 and 18 were likable and believable characters

I thought we were talking about before Super

[MR.Mark]

Your aware that there backstory was not elaborated on anywhere close to what Toriyama explained in interviews right? The casual fan would have no idea where 17 and 18 came from, just two strong kids made by some mad scientist.

Of course it's nonsense, it's Dragon Ball, stop taking it so seriously

The difference is that 17 and 18 were likable and believable characters

I thought we were talking about before Super

Nuff said.

[Asura]

Why would the reactions change if this scene happened today? 17 and 18 didn't just come out of nowhere, we were already warned beforehand that they're much more powerful than Goku & Vegeta and have killed everyone in Trunks' timeline, they were that strong. So if we're already told beforehand that 18 is going to be stronger than Vegeta, why would there be any outcry about it?

People need to realize the situation is a lot different for introducing a new Saiyan character, because we've already seen the struggles of our protagonist Saiyans and their achievements, making it harder to take in when a new Saiyan character does the same thing as opposed to a character that's of a different race.

[MR.Mark]

So Kyle Reese warns everyone about the Terminators, big whoop, they still were two punks that didn't earn the power they have.

I don't care at the end of the day because story wise, Vegeta was a dick that needed to be knocked down a peg, it's the fans that take the power way more serious than Toriyama.

[fadeddreams5]

Would fan's nerd rage nearly as hard as they do with anything that involves Kale, Cauliflua, or Kelfa?

Absolutely not. Of course, some fans would be upset, but the way the android saga executed both that fight and the build up towards it justified the end result. Trunks, a SSJ from the future who easily dispatched of Frieza, specifically arrived to the present to warn them about these androids. We finally saw why he was so scared of them through that scene with Vegeta and 18. If anything, it instantly made 18 a likable character, who had a cool, stoic personality and nice character design. With that said, the entire idea of androids from Earth stronger than a SSJ would be questioned, as is already the case.

People rage over Kale because a) she's a rip-off of a hugely popular villain; the unoriginality is strong. b) her personality in base form is god awful. c) her personality doesn't even fit her character design. They should have swapped her design with Caulifa's.

People rage over Caulifa because of her nonsensical power boosts. She's not undergoing training, special rituals, or anything at all. She just has to want a SSJ form, and she gets it by feeling tinglyness or whatever. I'm legitimately surprised she didn't become SSJ3. It's clear her entire existence was just to market a female SSJ, with no regard to how it affects the story.

[MR.Mark]

I find it very hard to believe that by the time Toriyama went past the Freeza arc, he wasin't aware by that point what had become marketable in his own series.

Terminator, er, HOMAGE aside, the Cell and Buu arcs had Super Saiyans everywhere, you can't tell me that was coincidence. We already know Toriyama is not against taking suggestions from staff and editors either.

Oh well, 18 is better cause DBZ you know the drill.

[sintzu]

The Cell and Buu arcs had Super Saiyans everywhere, you can't tell me that was coincidence.

He had Ssj be that way to avoid having his assistent and himself coloring their hair Black which according to him, took a long time. Back then, the manga was the main broduct to sell, not the merchandise so what sold didn't have an affect on what went into the story. In the end he completely removed Ssj from Gohan in favore of a base looking transformation (Mystic) so any argument about Toriyama catoring to merchandise back then goes out the window with that. If merchandise was his goal with Ssj then you would've seen Gohan and Vegeta get Ssj3 instead of the none marketable Mystic and Ssj2 they got.

The way Super is made today is completely different from back then as the point of it is to sell merchandise while the original was to sell the manga (the story).

[Rebel Instinct]

Oh well, 18 is better cause DBZ you know the drill.

You're being far too reductive about this. It's become apparent that you never had any actual intention of considering people's opinions on the subject or taking this discussion seriously. If all you're really going to do is dismiss the critics as blind and unreasonable DBZ fanboys, then no productive discussion was ever going to come from that.

[MR.Mark]

The Cell and Buu arcs had Super Saiyans everywhere, you can't tell me that was coincidence.

He had Ssj be that way to avoid having his assistent and himself coloring their hair Black which according to him, took a long time. Back then, the manga was the main broduct to sell, not the merchandise so what sold didn't have an affect on what went into the story. In the end he completely removed Ssj from Gohan in favore of a base looking transformation (Mystic) so any argument about Toriyama catoring to merchandise back then goes out the window with that. If merchandise was his goal with Ssj then you would've seen Gohan and Vegeta get Ssj3 instead of the none marketable Mystic and Ssj2 they got.

The way Super is made today is completely different from back then as the point of it is to sell merchandise while the original was to sell the manga (the story).

So the majority of the story of the Cell and Buu arcs was due to laziness? How is that any better than marketing? Goku got SSJ3 because he's the main character, same reaon he defeated Buu despite not being the strongest at the time.

You think Toriyama introducing a teenage badass Super Saiyan to defeat the last big bad easily was just for complete story reasons? Get real, he knew fans would eat that up, and he's not wrong, it is badass, but id also call it clever ssj marketing.

Toriyama could of flexed some creative muscle and made a kid born from Bulma and Yamcha and find a way for him to be strong, but he knew it wouldn't be as popular as the new hot SSJ power up.

[FortuneSSJ]

No cause unlike Super, she didn't come out of nowhere.

Didn't Trunks warn everyone about 19 and 20? 18 didn't even exist until an editor got involved.

Didn't FT Trunks himself came out of nowhere?! Time Travel had never been talked about until he appeared.

[sintzu]

So the majority of the story of the Cell and Buu arcs was due to laziness ?

Goku got SSJ3 because he's the main character, same reaon he defeated Buu despite not being the strongest at the time.

You think Toriyama introducing a teenage badass Super Saiyan to defeat the last big bad easily was just for complete story reasons ?

Ssj was going to be introduced, the way it looked was based on Toriyama and his staff needing a break from coloring the hair as the had a lot to do. Trust me, mangaka like Toriyama are anything but lazy.

Ssj1 defeated a main villain, 2 also defeated a main villain so the most likely reason he introduced 3 was to go against everyone's expectations and have it NOT be the way the main villains went out. Instead he had Goku ALONGSIDE Vegeta, Buu, Satan and everyone else work together to take him out.

Are you talking about Cell ? if so, he had Gohan take him out because he was going to have him be the main character moving forward but pulled back on it because he didn't think he had what Goku had to carry an entire story.

Didn't FT Trunks himself came out of nowhere?! Time Travel had never been talked about until he appeared.

Doesn't every plot point in every story come out of nowhere ?

[MR.Mark]

No cause unlike Super, she didn't come out of nowhere.

Didn't Trunks warn everyone about 19 and 20? 18 didn't even exist until an editor got involved.

Didn't FT Trunks himself came out of nowhere?! Time Travel had never been talked about until he appeared.

Other than Terminator being a thing, FT Trunks exists because SSJ was strong and cool at the time. Toriyama made it work and Bulma and Vegeta are a great couple, but SSJ sells at the end of the day period.

I know Toriyama isint that lazy, but not wanting to color black hair does not justify the story being full of SSJ. I don't believe for a second that was even close to the main reason after the Freeza arc anyway, toys baby, toys.

[sintzu]

I don't believe for a second that was even close to the main reason after the Freeza arc anyway, toys baby, toys.

What you believe doesn't matter when the author himself gave the reasons to why things were the way they were.

[MR.Mark]

So the main reason for Cell's defeat was because inking takes to long and not OMG SSJ2 THIS WILL BE AWESOME IN VIDEOGAMES AND TOYS!1

I don't buy it.

[sintzu]

So the main reason for Cell's defeat was because inking takes to long and not OMG SSJ2 THIS WILL BE AWESOME IN VIDEOGAMES AND TOYS!1

I don't buy it.

Ssj2 wasn't even a thing when Gohan fought Cell, at that time it was just assumed to be Ssj1 with Gohan's massive power that we were seeing glimps of up to that point. A magazine even called it grade 5, never mind the fact that those so called "grade" forms were never called that or anything else in the manga.

If you want to act like a know it all you might want to get your facts straight.

[Soppa Saia People]

So much passive aggressiveness in this thread, lol. Sad cause the first page was a fun topic.

[MR.Mark]

If you want to act like a know it all you might want to get your facts straight.

If you want to act elitist you shouldin't be saying things like "Tien", ooooh snap.

SSJ2/Grade 5, does it make a difference? It's bad enough that the grades were even a thing between SSJ-SSj2. Toriyama whored out SSJ worse than Bulma fan service.

So much passive aggressiveness in this thread, lol. Sad cause the first page was a fun topic.

It was my folly for not believing that Dragon Ball, a series for children, was the first of it's kind where selling merchandise was never the authors intention in any compacity. Super invented that concept, in fact Toriyama is salty because he wished his manga never made money period, he just wanted to entertain the world for free.

[sintzu]

SSJ2/Grade 5, does it make a difference?

The point is that in the manga the grade forms weren't even called that or anything else and Ssj2 wasn't a different form until Goku named it in the Buu arc. It was just a stronger ssj during Cell and the 1st part of Buu.

If these forms were made to sell then Toriyama would've given each a name and distinctive features to help them sell better.

[MR.Mark]

Well he certainly made a point to have Goku name them all one by one didn't he? You might aswell have fat Buu be a stand in for a new child fan to the series.

Gotenks himself is a walking toy commercial besides being a gag character.

[Kaiosama]

The concept of Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan pisses all over everything about what happened on Namek.

How so ? Vegeta after being revived by Dende might've been on 3rd form Freeza's level so why wouldn't 4 years of hard training be enough to reach it ? What was said on Namek that goes against it ? Goku reached it through anger and having a high power level, same thing as Vegeta.

At least he didn't reach it by getting a "tingly" back.

The whole crux of how the Super Saiyan transformation could be achieved during the Namek/Freeza arc automatically disqualified Vegeta from attaining it because he was an evil bastard with diabolical intentions. Then several chapters later he attain because he's evil bastard with diabolical intentions.

"A warrior with a pure heart, awakened by rage," is the description Goku and King Kai give Super Saiyan and even Freeza says this is why Vegeta never managed to become one.

Then Vegeta becomes a SSJ with the justification that boils down to, in his own words, "Well, yeah, my heart is pure. Pure evil that is."

Toriyama horribly backtracked on his intended symbolical narrative in the Freeza arc and practically handed Vegeta the Super Saiyan form just so that he wouldn't fall behind.

It was a garbage asspull. Vegeta should have stayed dead and should never have gotten SSJ. It was bad writing. Giving Vegeta UI just so he doesn't fall behind would be inexcusable in this arc.