Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I personal would still put her below perfect Cell, but above semi perfect Cell. I think she definitely got stronger, but I really don't see her beating Cell by herself, though that is just my personal belief and I have no evidence to back it up. However I do think there is ample evidence putting her below Buu.

I can see that.

She did make Shin her bitch so that puts her at the minimum at over Cell Junior tier.

Tbh Shin is kind of a weenie. He pretty much cowered to any threat and was concerned about Babadie's fodder. Though I wouldn't be surprised if 18 could beat him.

Shin is not weak in the Boo arc. He's confirmed to be way stronger than Piccolo in that arc.

[Hugo Boss]

Don’t think Dyspo is slitting hairs in that way. When people say some is getting stronger in Dragon Ball, they mean power, not better moves.

Then, you must think Hit gets stronger by powering-up. No problem.

I think Goku is getting more powerful and is getting better with his moves at the same time.

No problem with thinking that, but some people are extrapolating what was said as if it was a fact. Getting more powerful is not the only way of getting stronger.

[majinwarman]

I think Freeza went Golden just to get the fight over with. Even he said," Wasting stamina just to eliminate trash".

I agree.

Where are you getting the numbers for ripping time and space?

From current science.

Its based off of current science.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014032 ... -wormholes

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienc ... energy.htm

From there you gauge the bare minimum amount if energy it takes to rip alart spacetime.

I mean you can use that as a guideline but real science has never meshed well with dragon ball.

Quick and easy gets the job done.

[Bullza]

I just noticed that Gohan is using his Ultimate form in the preview for the next episode.

I wonder what that will mean for the U6 Namekians strength. So far they seem to just be on par with Piccolo and Base Gohan.

[Shlugo]

In light of all her showings, it's pretty clear that Ribrianne is below the base sayians level, and 17 was just sandbagging while fighting her.


I have hard time putting where 18 is right now.... is she stronger than base sayians but weaker than SSJ? Her performance in the tournament suggests that it might be the case, but then again, maybe not, since as always it's hard to tell how much they hold back. In any case it does seem like she got significantly stronger than during the Androids saga. It came out of the left field, but that's Super for you.

[AvatarReiko]

Could someone explain how a person who causally tanks punches from SSJ Vegeta bruised her leg so easily? Really weird how frail Toei made 18 in this episode.

Tanking hits isn't as prevalent anymore, unless you're within the "god level" of power, as fans call it, compared to those below it.

That's about the only hard rule with regards to how damage works.

I don't see how that matters. Even the android saga SSJs were multi-planetary and she took the best Vegeta had to offer and broke his arm like it was nothing. She has no business bruising her ankle from falling on the ground when she had tanked Vegeta's strongest punches to the gut.

[namekiansaiyan]

I just noticed that Gohan is using his Ultimate form in the preview for the next episode.

I wonder what that will mean for the U6 Namekians strength. So far they seem to just be on par with Piccolo and Base Gohan.

They are either hiding a lot of power or Pirina absorbed Saonel which I doubt. Saonel and Pirina also have unlimited regeneration so that might be playing a role .

[lord turbo]

I mean you can use that as a guideline but real science has never meshed well with dragon ball.

Like you said I only use it as a guideline, I doubt Toriyama is aware of the physics implications of his characters levels when he has them perform some of these larger than life feats.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Could someone explain how a person who causally tanks punches from SSJ Vegeta bruised her leg so easily? Really weird how frail Toei made 18 in this episode.

Tanking hits isn't as prevalent anymore, unless you're within the "god level" of power, as fans call it, compared to those below it.

That's about the only hard rule with regards to how damage works.

I don't see how that matters. Even the android saga SSJs were multi-planetary and she took the best Vegeta had to offer and broke his arm like it was nothing. She has no business bruising her ankle from falling on the ground when she had tanked Vegeta's strongest punches to the gut.

That's now how she bruised her ankle. She bruised it from an off-screen explosion last episode. Landing on it wrong in this episode just twisted it and made it worse.

[dragon boss z]

I can see that.

She did make Shin her bitch so that puts her at the minimum at over Cell Junior tier.

Tbh Shin is kind of a weenie. He pretty much cowered to any threat and was concerned about Babadie's fodder. Though I wouldn't be surprised if 18 could beat him.

Shin is not weak in the Boo arc. He's confirmed to be way stronger than Piccolo in that arc.

I didn't say he was week, I said he was a weenie. I wouldn't be surprised if I ran into him at weenie hut Jr.'s.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Me too...It's been civil... If I come off a little aggressive please let me know. I don't mean to. Trust me it's all friendly.


You state that Whis says Kefla's energy/ki rivals the power of the Genki dama. Then go on to say Whis never stated her power competes with the AMOUNT?!
Even tho Whis stated her energy rivals, which means it EQUALS in the AMOUNT/QUANTITY of power to the Genki Dama. That's a contradiction on your part.
You can't give Whis canon statement about Kefla's SSJ rivaling the power of the bomb another context when SSJ Kefla TKO's Goku OUT OF KK Blue with just ONE KICK!!! The actions equal the statements.

No, this does not mean that Kefla's energy competes with GK's in quantity, but in the ability to make Goku activate the UI. These two energies forced Goku to '' break the shell '' again and Whis underscores that.

You're totally ignoring the context of the fight between Goku Blue KK and Kefla SSJ just to say she defeated Goku with a kick.
He was CLEAR with the low guard, and Beerus said that Goku would have to finalize the fight in the next attack because he was not even able to keep Blue KK (Kamehameha was the last attack, and Kefla's kick was enough for Goku was almost without energy, falling)

Kefla SSJ could not even FOLLOW the speed of the Blue KK tired, was shaking to get up with a punch and needed a distraction to defeat Goku, how will she be superior to the Blue KK x20? The context of the Whis speech you are saying simply does not fit, it is not coherent.

You are ignoring the context that Kefla was NOT trying to defeat Goku. She wanted the match to prolong as much as possible and wanted to increase her power. She was even sad that Goku was ONE SHOTTED. Which is ANOTHER PROOF that Goku wasn't in her league after being defeated by just one blow. Then you ignore the fact that Kefla SSJ2 SURPASSED UI Goku's power, stated by Kefla and Piccolo. In order to do that she has to be above the bomb and KKx20 Blue. In addition, Kefla was so strong she could of KILLED UI Goku with her final attack. All this proves Whis statement about Kefla SS rivaling the spirit bomb and being greater than KKx20 Blue. These are the truths that the story wants the fans to adhere to.

Is that serious? So Kefla was much more than 20X stronger than Goku but could not even FOLLOW SSB KK's speed? He had this power but he was shaking with only one punch and still getting irritated? If she was being defeated, she should increase her power, but she preferred to use a distraction to attack Goku ...

AND HOW does the fact of Kefla SSJ2 supposed to be stronger than UI Goku proves that its form of REGULAR SSJ overcomes the power of Blue KK x20? One thing has no relation to the other.
Kefla SSJ2 was only a threat to UI Goku at the end, when she was exploding with rage (for being impotent against Goku), raising her Ki to the max and using her last resort, a concentrated Ki attack in laser form (all attacks of Ki surpass the power of the user himself, we saw this against Raditz, Vegeta, and Zamasu for example).
As for example, the Special Beam Cannon of Piccolo being able to kill Raditz and be several times stronger than the power level of Piccolo himself

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla could follow Ultra Instinct Goku's speed.

[Liquir]

So, this theory people are mentioning of merging all Erased Universes with Universe 7... If this happens wouldn't that be the End of New Powerful Villains ? There would be no villain powerful enough to defeat all Fighters. UI Goku, UI Vegeta ( UI Vegito ), Jiren, Hit, Toppo, Saiyans and many more. With their combined power no Villain would stand a chance , they could possibly overpower even an Angel with their combined power.
The Villain would literally have to be Grand Priest power level to even stand a chance.

[Hugo Boss]

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla could follow Ultra Instinct Goku's speed.

It’s not that she couldn’t follow him. She couldn’t react properly to his movements.

If we have to give credit to Whis, we should give the same to Vados. She warned that SS Kafla should not take SSB Goku lightly. They traded blows evenly for a while until Goku decided to use kaioken. Then, she attacked Goku from his blind spot. Perhaps kaioken allows Goku to fight better than someone more powerful than him for a while.

[Miracles]

No, this does not mean that Kefla's energy competes with GK's in quantity, but in the ability to make Goku activate the UI. These two energies forced Goku to '' break the shell '' again and Whis underscores that.

You're totally ignoring the context of the fight between Goku Blue KK and Kefla SSJ just to say she defeated Goku with a kick.
He was CLEAR with the low guard, and Beerus said that Goku would have to finalize the fight in the next attack because he was not even able to keep Blue KK (Kamehameha was the last attack, and Kefla's kick was enough for Goku was almost without energy, falling)

Kefla SSJ could not even FOLLOW the speed of the Blue KK tired, was shaking to get up with a punch and needed a distraction to defeat Goku, how will she be superior to the Blue KK x20? The context of the Whis speech you are saying simply does not fit, it is not coherent.

You are ignoring the context that Kefla was NOT trying to defeat Goku. She wanted the match to prolong as much as possible and wanted to increase her power. She was even sad that Goku was ONE SHOTTED. Which is ANOTHER PROOF that Goku wasn't in her league after being defeated by just one blow. Then you ignore the fact that Kefla SSJ2 SURPASSED UI Goku's power, stated by Kefla and Piccolo. In order to do that she has to be above the bomb and KKx20 Blue. In addition, Kefla was so strong she could of KILLED UI Goku with her final attack. All this proves Whis statement about Kefla SS rivaling the spirit bomb and being greater than KKx20 Blue. These are the truths that the story wants the fans to adhere to.

Is that serious? So Kefla was much more than 20X stronger than Goku but could not even FOLLOW SSB KK's speed? He had this power but he was shaking with only one punch and still getting irritated? If she was being defeated, she should increase her power, but she preferred to use a distraction to attack Goku ...

AND HOW does the fact of Kefla SSJ2 supposed to be stronger than UI Goku proves that its form of REGULAR SSJ overcomes the power of Blue KK x20? One thing has no relation to the other.
Kefla SSJ2 was only a threat to UI Goku at the end, when she was exploding with rage (for being impotent against Goku), raising her Ki to the max and using her last resort, a concentrated Ki attack in laser form (all attacks of Ki surpass the power of the user himself, we saw this against Raditz, Vegeta, and Zamasu for example).
As for example, the Special Beam Cannon of Piccolo being able to kill Raditz and be several times stronger than the power level of Piccolo himself

And those final Ki attacks are STILL the power of the user themselves. Meaning Kefla had enough power to still KILL UI Goku.
That is just another fact proving Piccolo's statement was about Kefla's SSJ2 surpassing UI Goku's "former level" and NOT KKx20Blue Goku.
Which proves her SSJ was stronger than KKx20 Blue. Cause in order to match UI Goku, SSJ2 would HAVE to be on par or greater than UI. Which means her SSJ is stronger than KKx20 Blue.

This was proved by Whis statement of SSJ Kefla rivaling the bomb, Kefla not being DAMAGED by any of Goku's attacks that made a difference. So what, she couldn't keep up with Goku's speed ONE time, it made no difference in the battle. She [ forced Goku to use his best attack against her generic Ki blasts and Goku not being able to keep up with her and getting ONE SHOTTED back into normal mode with a single kick. That alone proved superiority. She did all this while not wanting the fight to stop. She was happy when Goku got back up. Goku actually tried to defeat her, being in desperation using KK Blue, putting more strain on his body. The statements and action prove that SSJ kefla =Spirit bomb > KKx20 Goku.

[TheSaiyanGod]

You are ignoring the context that Kefla was NOT trying to defeat Goku. She wanted the match to prolong as much as possible and wanted to increase her power. She was even sad that Goku was ONE SHOTTED. Which is ANOTHER PROOF that Goku wasn't in her league after being defeated by just one blow. Then you ignore the fact that Kefla SSJ2 SURPASSED UI Goku's power, stated by Kefla and Piccolo. In order to do that she has to be above the bomb and KKx20 Blue. In addition, Kefla was so strong she could of KILLED UI Goku with her final attack. All this proves Whis statement about Kefla SS rivaling the spirit bomb and being greater than KKx20 Blue. These are the truths that the story wants the fans to adhere to.

Is that serious? So Kefla was much more than 20X stronger than Goku but could not even FOLLOW SSB KK's speed? He had this power but he was shaking with only one punch and still getting irritated? If she was being defeated, she should increase her power, but she preferred to use a distraction to attack Goku ...

AND HOW does the fact of Kefla SSJ2 supposed to be stronger than UI Goku proves that its form of REGULAR SSJ overcomes the power of Blue KK x20? One thing has no relation to the other.
Kefla SSJ2 was only a threat to UI Goku at the end, when she was exploding with rage (for being impotent against Goku), raising her Ki to the max and using her last resort, a concentrated Ki attack in laser form (all attacks of Ki surpass the power of the user himself, we saw this against Raditz, Vegeta, and Zamasu for example).
As for example, the Special Beam Cannon of Piccolo being able to kill Raditz and be several times stronger than the power level of Piccolo himself

And those final Ki attacks are STILL the power of the user themselves. Meaning Kefla had enough power to still KILL UI Goku.
That is just another fact proving Piccolo's statement was about Kefla's SSJ2 surpassing UI Goku's "former level" and NOT KKx20Blue Goku.
Which proves her SSJ was stronger than KKx20 Blue. Cause in order to match UI Goku, SSJ2 would HAVE to be on par or greater than UI. Which means her SSJ is stronger than KKx20 Blue.

This was proved by Whis statement of SSJ Kefla rivaling the bomb, Kefla not being DAMAGED by any of Goku's attacks that made a difference. So what, she couldn't keep up with Goku's speed ONE time, it made no difference in the battle. She [ forced Goku to use his best attack against her generic Ki blasts and Goku not being able to keep up with her and getting ONE SHOTTED back into normal mode with a single kick. That alone proved superiority. She did all this while not wanting the fight to stop. She was happy when Goku got back up. Goku actually tried to defeat her, being in desperation using KK Blue, putting more strain on his body. The statements and action prove that SSJ kefla =Spirit bomb > KKx20 Goku.

Anger always increases exponentially the power of the Saiyans, and that is exactly what happened to Kefla, so this was not just the power of Kefla itself ...

His last resort was a fully concentrated Ki attack being used as a laser (cutting). KI attacks concentrated in this way ALWAYS outweigh the power of the user himself and this became clear in the series.
Piccolo was much weaker than Raditz and was not able to beat him even with Goku's help, but with a Special Beam Cannon he was able to easily kill the Saiyajin.
That final attack of Kefla supposedly been able to kill Goku (only in Roshi's view) does not prove that she is level UI Goku (although that is not even the main point of the discussion).

You CONTINUE ignoring that Kefla was ONLY able to hit Goku because he attacked him in a blind spot after he lowered his guard. And she did NOT knock him out, Goku returned to his normal form for lack of energy.
In SSB he was already able to rival SSJ Kefla, he only used Kaioken because he needed to finish it quickly before his energy ran out.
It does not matter if he used Kamehameha against Kefla's Ki attacks, this technique can be used at several different power levels, this does not mean that he used a Kamehameha with full power. The superiority of Goku SSB KK over Kefla was visible, including Kefla's own reactions (annoyed that she had taken Goku's coup and surprised her when she could not keep pace with Saiyajin)

Whis speech does not match what was shown on EP 115

[precita]

So, this theory people are mentioning of merging all Erased Universes with Universe 7... If this happens wouldn't that be the End of New Powerful Villains ? There would be no villain powerful enough to defeat all Fighters. UI Goku, UI Vegeta ( UI Vegito ), Jiren, Hit, Toppo, Saiyans and many more. With their combined power no Villain would stand a chance , they could possibly overpower even an Angel with their combined power.
The Villain would literally have to be Grand Priest power level to even stand a chance.

There's barely any villains in Super anyway. After 100+ episodes the only new villains we got were Black/Zamasu...unless you count Frost.

It doesn't seem like Super needs villains unlike DBZ.

[Liquir]

There's barely any villains in Super anyway. After 100+ episodes the only new villains we got were Black/Zamasu...unless you count Frost.

It doesn't seem like Super needs villains unlike DBZ.

That would mean the next obstacle would be the Angels? To surpass them. I doubt the four remaining Universes have fighters that are God of Destruction level, so I see no point in fighting their fighters , unless they have some unique abilities for Goku to overcome, but still I expect nothing major of them.
One Arc for Goku vs Beerus rematch and after that in terms of Greater Power levels, Angels are only left.
There is a possibility for the remaining Four great power Whis stated, but logically those would be above the Angles, so yet they would have to overcome them first.

[Kenneth La Torre]

There's barely any villains in Super anyway. After 100+ episodes the only new villains we got were Black/Zamasu...unless you count Frost.

It doesn't seem like Super needs villains unlike DBZ.

That would mean the next obstacle would be the Angels? To surpass them. I doubt the four remaining Universes have fighters that are God of Destruction level, so I see no point in fighting their fighters , unless they have some unique abilities for Goku to overcome, but still I expect nothing major of them.
One Arc for Goku vs Beerus rematch and after that in terms of Greater Power levels, Angels are only left.
There is a possibility for the remaining Four great power Whis stated, but logically those would be above the Angles, so yet they would have to overcome them first.

An arc for a beerus vs goku rematch is actually useless. Gokus already fighting someone who is just as strong, if not stronger than beerus. Maybe an episode of them fighting, not an arc.

[Liquir]

An arc for a beerus vs goku rematch is actually useless. Gokus already fighting someone who is just as strong, if not stronger than beerus. Maybe an episode of them fighting, not an arc.

In those terms, somewhat of a mini arc. There is no doubt Beerus will challenge Goku after the Tournament, he is already showing some reactions pointing towards it. It will also clear misinformation and provide some power scaling in terms of Jiren and Beerus. Depending how Goku will do against Jiren Rematch in the TOP and vs Beerus Rematch we will be able ( to some degree ) establish the difference in the power levels of Jiren and Beerus.