Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

[DSB]

So pulling Goku's tail back out of his ass with plyers is superior to the mystery of divine ki? Ok then.

18 has been fighting in the TOP, no being a housewife for her, and we have Kale and Califlya too. Pan is Gohan's daughter for crying out loud, that alone should make her right up there with her father or stronger. GT if anything was showing bias because she is female if anything.

Minus is meh, but then it's barely a story, I wouldn't compare it to Super in the slightest.

SSJ has been a joke since the Buu arc, atleast the tingly back gives the power up some bases in martial arts. No different than Goku and Piccolo suddenly being explained as aliens.

I guess I'm one of the few fans that doesn't have nostalgia bias.

Here Here, brother. Like i always said, keep Nostalgia away and Z isnt that far away from Super. And GT is still crap.

[ABED]

What exactly makes it divine? As far as I can tell, the only thing separating gods from regular people is a longer life and their battle power, but as we see, that gap can be bridged and plenty of regular beings live super long lives.

GT did show Pan having natural talent for her age, but it also made her different. We have plenty of battle maniacs in the show already. She has some of her grandfather's traits without wanting to be just like him. Almost that alone justifies her existence moreso than if she was yet another character who was really strong. At this point, bringing a different personality to the table is much more interesting than if it's yet another super strong character for Goku to at least strive to overcome. Beerus is another good example. In GT, characters like the 4 Star Dragon and Ledgic are different than many of the characters we see in the story to that point.

[MR.Mark]

So if Super goes past EOZ and Toriyama makes Pan SSJ/Blue/whatever and be able to fight with the best of them you'd be against it saying Tori made her a battle maniac?

I have my fingers crossed, but if we go past EOZ and Toriyama wastes Pan I will be disappointed.

This is Dragon Ball but even so I find the excuse for stronger guys and escalation more "logical" in Super than GT and way more Toriyama.

[ABED]

Fair enough that it's very Toriyama, but by the end, he was repeating himself and running on fumes. It was such a long running show that covered so much ground that most of whatever they do going forward is just going to be well-trodden ground.

So if Super goes past EOZ and Toriyama makes Pan SSJ/Blue/whatever and be able to fight with the best of them you'd be against it saying Tori made her a battle maniac?

No, and I never implied it. I simply like that in GT her personality was different and justified her existence in the show more than simply having another character who was really strong. I enjoy different characterization and interactions.

[Michsi]

Since I've never properly watched GT, I may not be the best person to post here, but there is something I've been wondering and I'm curious if anyone else ever thought the same : doesn't the main cast, such as it is in GT, strike you as bland design-wise? Especially compared to DB and DBZ?

And by that I mean, they are all human looking characters. From the very beginning you had characters like Oolong, Puar, Chiaotzu, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Dende, Krillin, Buu being added to the main cast- I feel like it only made the villains look outlandish.

I compare it to Super, where I feel like they make better use this aspect of DB. For instance, Super introduced to essential characters that practically part of the main cast now, Beerus and Whis, and they are as colorful and quirky as they come.

Just curious if this is just me thinking this...

[MR.Mark]

Fair enough that it's very Toriyama, but by the end, he was repeating himself and running on fumes. It was such a long running show that covered so much ground that most of whatever they do going forward is just going to be well-trodden ground.

So if Super goes past EOZ and Toriyama makes Pan SSJ/Blue/whatever and be able to fight with the best of them you'd be against it saying Tori made her a battle maniac?

No, and I never implied it. I simply like that in GT her personality was different and justified her existence in the show more than simply having another character who was really strong. I enjoy different characterization and interactions.

More strong females is definitively not repeating himself, we need more in this series. Nothing wrong with Pan having a desire to fight and self improvement like her grandpa, she can be useful and still have her own qualities.

You need to watch Super as it's full of creative new ideas from Toriyama, weather you like them or not is your own preference of course. If anything GT was running on fumes, it couldn't even get past 64 episodes.

Being introduced to a little girl that gleefully announced she just flew around the world to her grandpa becoming what we see in GT was terrible, a total waste.

[ABED]

But strong doesn't just mean physically strong. While it might be fresh, it's not a shortcut. The characters still need to have interesting unique personalities.

it couldn't even get past 64 episodes.

Not saying it's a good show, but at least it has a proper ending. A short story can be better than a longer one. Let's also not forget that DB had run 10 years non-stop before GT. I've seen enough DB to last me a lifetime. I have little interest in watching anymore. I like when stories have the guts to actually end. And all the different Super Saiyan God forms don't sound like fresh ideas to me. The only thing that sounds enticing is an evil Kaioshin.

[MR.Mark]

GT had a nice ending but not a perfect one and I think Toriyama can top it. I'm certainly gonna let him have a chance to do so before I fully judge Super that isin't even finished yet.

We were just scratching the surface with Pan eoz, but what we got was fun atleast. GT Pan once again I felt was a waste, there was no benefit story wise to not make her more strong than she was.

[Timetraveller]

So pulling Goku's tail back out of his ass with plyers is superior to the mystery of divine ki? Ok then.

18 has been fighting in the TOP, no being a housewife for her, and we have Kale and Califlya too. Pan is Gohan's daughter for crying out loud, that alone should make her right up there with her father or stronger. GT if anything was showing bias because she is female if anything.

Minus is meh, but then it's barely a story, I wouldn't compare it to Super in the slightest.

SSJ has been a joke since the Buu arc, atleast the tingly back gives the power up some bases in martial arts. No different than Goku and Piccolo suddenly being explained as aliens.

I guess I'm one of the few fans that doesn't have nostalgia bias.

Nostalgia doesn't work when you remember the show was hated and only began to be appreciated more in recent times due to the quality of Super. Nostalgia bias would be more people hating GT which clearly isn't the case.

Pulling the tail out with a pair of pliers was just a humorous plot device to bring back the tail. Silly but not outside what Toriyama would do. Kind of makes sense too that remnants of the tail were still there. The mastery of the golden oozaru form leading to SS4 being superior to the mystery of divine ki which after 100 episodes still hasn't been explained and completely superseded now that a new transformation has come out? No doubt

Pan is Gohan's daughter but she was raised in the city in a peaceful period. She didn't have a reason to train as hard as Gohan, Goku or Vegeta did. There's no reason at all for her to be stronger than she was in GT (the fact that GT made her as strong as she was was very generous. She's much, much stronger than Goku and Goten when they were kids). Pan's a regular kid who spends most of her time at school. Gohan has a career now and never liked fighting in the beginning so he's not going to force the Goku lifestyle on her. Goku is off training Uub so he's not going to train her either. You thinking Toei wasted Pan is because they didn't satisfy your fan service expectations.

18 did nothing for the first 90+ episodes. Kale and Caulifla are examples of how NOT to write female characters. The tingly back thing has no basis in martial arts. Besides, they're saiyans and SS is a fictional transformation. Trying to explain it with pseudo science from the real world only cheapens it.

[MR.Mark]

This is turning into another stupid battle power debate. Anyway, Super's existence only makes me dislike GT more, so don't lump your views in for everyone.

Saying Pan doesn't need to be strong because she didn't need to be? Says who? GT? That's the whole problem, she should be stronger so we don't just rely on Goku and Vegeta to do everything. Uub was wasted too, Gohan and the others have been givin something to do in the recent arc of Super beyond cheering for Goku.

Toriyama has been giving pseudo science explanations from the moment Raditz showed up, so again, it's a non issue. And yes tingly back has a bases in martial arts, look it up.

My desire for Pan to be more important stems from how she was introduced in the manga, combined with a preference to again not have every fight rely on Goku. Don't accuse me of wanting fan service, GT was labeled Goku Time for a reason.

[Timetraveller]

This is turning into another stupid battle power debate. Anyway, Super's existence only makes me dislike GT more, so don't lump your views in for everyone.

Battle powers are a part of the story whether you like it or not. There's not much to debate. Never tried to lump my views for everyone so I don't know why you brought that up.

Saying Pan doesn't need to be strong because she didn't need to be? Says who? GT? That's the whole problem, she should be stronger so we don't just rely on Goku and Vegeta to do everything. Uub was wasted too, Gohan and the others have been givin something to do in the recent arc of Super beyond cheering for Goku.

With Goku being a god now (SSB plus Ultra Instinct), there's no logical way to make Pan catch up without breaking all internal consistency or some major asspull. The same way Roshi was left behind and never caught up at the start of DBZ and Krillin and Tien stopped being useful after Goku achieved SS1. Unless it's some side story/filler, any major threat will be dealt by Goku and Vegeta. Pan will most likely live a normal life like any kid would. You're not going to share the same interests as your grandparents or great grandparents. Pan was already plenty strong in GT. Probably stronger than Frieza.

My desire for Pan to be more important stems from how she was introduced in the manga, combined with a preference to again not have every fight rely on Goku. Don't accuse me of wanting fan service, GT was labeled Goku Time for a reason.

Yes, wanting Pan to be super strong is fan service. Goku has always been the main character and will continue to be the main character. Tingly back has no real basis in martial arts (clearly, it's not real). Maybe some ancient chinese teachings which I assume you're referring to.

[DSB]

My desire for Pan to be more important stems from how she was introduced in the manga, combined with a preference to again not have every fight rely on Goku. Don't accuse me of wanting fan service, GT was labeled Goku Time for a reason.

Yes, wanting Pan to be super strong is fan service. Goku has always been the main character and will continue to be the main character. Tingly back has no real basis in martial arts (clearly, it's not real). Maybe some ancient chinese teachings which I assume you're referring to.

I would like you to watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFqAvcuuCeA

It has extreme basis in japanese martial arts. The general public is just not aware of it.

[MR.Mark]

^Exactly

Also your arguments are seriously weak, this is Dragonball, the only limits are your own imagination. Pan can be strong for the simple reason of being Gohan's daughter, she was conceived at a time when Gohan was one of the strongest unfused characters. I wouldn't bat a eye if she achieved Ultra Instinct when she gets older.

GT Pan on the other hand, couldin't even go SSJ, while the eoz version hinted at her already being stronger than Goten and Trunks. Toriyama even made her strong enough to be a SSJ while still in Videl's belly.

[Basaku]

So pulling Goku's tail back out of his ass with plyers is superior to the mystery of divine ki? Ok then.

Both are equally convinent asspulls, Toriyama didn't really do any better here than Toei did with GT's SSJ4, let's be honest.

[MR.Mark]

Personal preference of course, but I'll take the God ritual over a literal asspull.

[Basaku]

Personal preference of course, but I'll take the God ritual over a literal asspull.

And I'll take the unique, lore-appropriate and good design with an asspull introduction over badly designed SSG with equally unimpressive and convinient introduction and the least imaginative ritual possible. Really, combine energies of multiple warriors. Zzzzzz... even the confused Golden Oozaru-SSJ4 transformation is more exciting than that, despite no one having any clue what exactly Golden Oozaru got to do with 'standard' Oozaru and black-red-haired SSJ4.

[MR.Mark]

Meh, not gonna turn this into I like this design more so it's better debate. I like the God approach because by SSJ3 it was getting ridiculous. Hair color is one thing, but Goku becoming a furry? I just think it's stupid, I want to see the character get stronger without losing the character completely, SSJ3 was enough. I'll take the current minimalist approach by far.

[Basaku]

Hair color is one thing, but Goku becoming a furry? I just think it's stupid

I mean, it's only been part of the lore since day 1. You do remember Oozaru right? Like, the major part of Saiyan mythology...

Also, minimalistic =/= automatically good. SSG's got a particularly toxic shade of pink/magneta hair, unfitting skinny design, oversized irides that together create a look that doesn't fit the show nor other characters and exist only because Toriyama really wishes he could retcon the entire thing into collection of kawaii stick-figures. I understand his change of style, but you can't do it with 1 design and expect it to fit with the old one without issues. SSB is already easier on the eyes thanks to retaining old SSJ1 proportion of the body/facial details and utilizing a less eye-burning light blue hair.

[DragonBallKing]

Meh, not gonna turn this into I like this design more so it's better debate. I like the God approach because by SSJ3 it was getting ridiculous. Hair color is one thing, but Goku becoming a furry? I just think it's stupid, I want to see the character get stronger without losing the character completely, SSJ3 was enough. I'll take the current minimalist approach by far.

So are all Saiyans furries because they have monkey tails?

[MR.Mark]

Don't put words in my mouth, this may be DB, but I just feel less is more in this case, transformations for Goku have become stale. I guess I'm just a fan that's tired of that trope to show off a character getting stronger. Yes Ozaru has been around since the beginning, but it was dropped for a reason. Why didn't Toriyama have Goku master it so we could see a giant ape Goku walking around and talking and shit? Because that would be lame, I don't want to see a giant ape take down Freeza on Namek, Toriyama made the right call.

Ultra Instinct is a breath of fresh air and I hope it will eventually allow Goku to not need SSJ anymore.

So are all Saiyans furries because they have monkey tails?

Depends on what you consider a furry I guess.