Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

[ABED]

I don't need a lesson on what UI is when I'm trying to justify it's benefit to the story. So if you just don't like it that's your personal preference. a lot of people love it, me included and I've givin a reason why it's better than just another transformation.

It is LITERALLY just another transformation. The skill doesn't necessitate another transformation. It is simply a new skill that's difficult to master. The transformation aspect is simply there because they sell. It's more concrete than the idea of fighting without thinking consciously about it.

Again, giving Goku a limit why? He was just given SSJ4 not to much later.

Over half the series later and limits are good. Why are you against putting limits on the main character who at the end of Z was strong enough to destroy the solar system. 35 or so episodes before finding a way around that limit is a long stretch of time. Then there's the humor that comes from him being an adult but treated like a kid.

And I'm telling you I've seen this scenario played out so many times in many other shows where they have a great villain and keep bringing them back until what was great about them gets devalued. I don't have any interest in what Freeza's goal is. If I'm proven wrong, then so be it, but I don't think I will be. Either he will do something evil or do something redemptive, but it won't be anything new. Goku has been defeated too many times for beating him to have narrative value and we've seen plenty of other redemption arcs in the show.

[MR.Mark]

Again, Goku always had limits, it's what makes him more interesting than Superman. This has been a theme before GT made him a kid so that's a weak argument.

You give Goku limits by putting him up against stronger opponents, it's the writers fault if they can't think of fresh ways for guys to be stronger.

I didn't find much humor from the situation of him being a kid either, everyone got over it pretty quick then business like usual.

Also UI was just introduced, how bout seeing where it goes before completely writing it off? (and watch Super for that matter) This is why I'm speculating the benefit it would have to tie into eoz. Like SSJ canceling out Ozaru, UI may very well cancel out ssj, so not just another transformation. Either way it looks terrific and doesn't lose Goku's iconic design while giving him power in the process.

Yeah, you can't really argue Freeza since the show is still going, so that is a moot point, but I like what he's been givin to do thus far. Far more entertaining than Goku fighting Cell and Freeza in hell.

[Timetraveller]

Again, Goku always had limits, it's what makes him more interesting than Superman. This has been a theme before GT made him a kid so that's a weak argument.

You give Goku limits by putting him up against stronger opponents, it's the writers fault if they can't think of fresh ways for guys to be stronger.

I didn't find much humor from the situation of him being a kid either, everyone got over it pretty quick then business like usual.

Also UI was just introduced, how bout seeing where it goes before completely writing it off? (and watch Super for that matter) This is why I'm speculating the benefit it would have to tie into eoz. Like SSJ canceling out Ozaru, UI may very well cancel out ssj, so not just another transformation. Either way it looks terrific and doesn't lose Goku's iconic design while giving him power in the process.

Yeah, you can't really argue Freeza since the show is still going, so that is a moot point, but I like what he's been givin to do thus far. Far more entertaining than Goku fighting Cell and Freeza in hell.

It's better than giving Goku gigantic power boosts which completely break the power scale and makes it impossible for any other character besides Goku to do anything. SSG and SSB are a lot stronger than SS4 and yet you never get the feeling that he's any more powerful than regular SS1. It makes so little sense that the fanbase has to create headcanon every time Goku fights to try to explain what's going on. We never had to do that for DBZ or GT. Reusing Goku's iconic design is great....if they hadn't reused old designs for ALL of the new transformations introduced in this show. Now it's just lazy. UI probably makes more sense than recolors though since it's not a super saiyan form

You like what Frieza's done so far? Stand on top of a rock and make pointless commentary like Krillin?

There's nothing wrong with Goku being a kid. Goku being kid gave more depth to Goku's character and provided us with unique, entertaining interactions with the other main characters. He and Pan had a competitive/sibling-like relationship which develops into a more stereotypical Grandpa/granddaughter relationship as the series progresses and Goku earns more of her respect. He steps in between the Goten and Gohan fight showing some growth as a parent. He also treats Vegeta as a close friend and there's a mutual respect for him, something he never did in DBZ. It's better than the one dimensional Goku Super portrays who's brain-dead and only cares about fighting strong opponents (except for that one time in the Black arc). Ironic that kid Goku is still more mature than adult Goku in DBS.

Let's get back to the topic of this thread though. An unbiased assessment of GT after a recent watch and after having caught up to Super

[ABED]

Goku didn't have limits. There was no limit to his growth. Superman however is limited to how strong he gets based on the writer. His strength is a result of biology and yellow sun light. Goku's strength is based on ki which is potentially unlimited. Putting him against a stronger opponent isn't a limit. Why are you so against him being given a limit on his ability? How is that terrible writing?

Also UI was just introduced, how bout seeing where it goes before completely writing it off?

How many transformations has Goku had in DB? It's gone past the point of diminishing marginal returns. At least GT just had one.

I'll just say it, but I like Giru. He was a good addition to the show.

[MR.Mark]

An unbiased assessment of GT said by a guy that has bias with DBZ/GT, that's not hypocritical at all.

Goku doesn't have limits? Are we not watching the same series? What was the whole theme behind the BOG movie?

Transformations are transformations, this argument is redundant as fuck. I am tired of them and I like that UI has a minimalist approach that HOPEFULLY will lead to Goku not needing more. What show has more tansformations has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

I'm not here to get into a powerscalling debate ethier because I find that to pretentious for this series. Interesting and fun story progression is more important, and another strong female fighter like Pan assisting Goku and Vegeta (and possibly Uub) is more interesting then giving Goku a furry design while everyone cheers him on and does nothing.

If Pan being strong breaks your own logic that's you own issue.

[ABED]

Transformations are transformations, this argument is redundant as fuck. I am tired of them and I like that UI has a minimalist approach that HOPEFULLY will lead to Goku not needing more. What show has more tansformations has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

Nor mine ultimately, but the idea behind UI didn't require to be a transformation. I like the idea as it goes to my point about limitations. I simply wish the writers didn't feel the need to add another transformation on top of all the others. While it sounds like this might be the last, thankfully, the impact of the form is lessened considerably because there have been so many up to this point.

If Pan being strong breaks your own logic that's you own issue.

When did I say I have an issue with it?

another strong female fighter like Pan assisting Goku and Vegeta (and possibly Uub) is more interesting

It's not inherently interesting just making her stronger. I was never against her being stronger, though what I like about her has nothing to do with strength. Physically strong characters aren't interesting by virtue of being strong. She needs a unique personality, otherwise no amount of fighting will help matters. We can quibble over the execution, but being a bratty young girl who is forced to grow up is an interesting arc. I find that more interesting than just her being really strong and being able to help her grandfather out.

The kind of limitations I'm referring to are issues like SS3 consuming a lot of power or the intermediate SSJ forms that increase power but decreases ones speeds. I like those limits and tradeoffs. It makes for interesting storytelling. If putting him in his younger body prevents him from using a technique that's as narratively convenient as teleporting, then I'm all for it.

[MR.Mark]

This still comes down to whether you full on consider UI a full transformation. As far as I'm concerned there's not enough info on it yet to make that determination.
It doesin't seem to function like a typical one and story wise we needed at least a subtle visual cue to show Goku was mastering it. So AGAIN, I'll take minimalist with the possibility that it will cancel out further over the top crap that changes Goku's appearance needlessly. UI exists because of Goku's limitations in the first place.

Goku not being able to teleport is not a big enough pay off and justification to make him a kid again, that's reaching. Him admitting he couldin't defeat Beerus and being at his mercy was far more compelling for Goku and his character.

Splitting hairs with Pan, this isn't just about strength but making her usefull in a story about fighting beyond just being another spectator.

She doesint have to be a Goku clone but imo EOZ at least hinted at her being a happy go lucky type. Not some punk wannabe with a chain on her jeans and a bandana, lame.
I know it's not Toriyama's typical style, but don't we already have enough loud/bratty/tomboyish females in this series? Pan being super strong, yet a little nieve and gentle would be a nice change of pace.

I find it odd that just the other day you were agreeing that GT wasin't even a good show yet you seem compelled to defend it against a show you havin't even watched. That seems like a rather pointless exercise, I don't know what your trying to achieve.

[ABED]

Goku not being able to teleport is not a big enough pay off and justification to make him a kid again, that's reaching. Him admitting he couldin't defeat Beerus and being at his mercy was far more compelling for Goku and his character.

It's not reaching. There's the limitations and the comedy that stems from it. Goku has admitted he couldn't defeat people before. That's not a limit. It's him admitting someone is better than him... for now.

Splitting hairs with Pan, this isn't just about strength but making her usefull in a story about fighting beyond just being another spectator.

How is that splitting hairs? Making her strong enough to help out won't neccessarily make her interesting. You think her personality is lame and the comedy is terrible, but both are subjective.

imo EOZ at least hinted at her being a happy go lucky type

Like Goku.

I find it odd that just the other day you were agreeing that GT wasin't even a good show yet you seem compelled to defend it against a show you havin't even watched. That seems like a rather pointless exercise, I don't know what your trying to achieve.

There are aspects I will defend. I don't think it's a great show, but I do enjoy aspects of it. It's not inconsistent to say that even in a show that you don't think is up to snuff, there are elements of it that you like. It's still DB. While Super is also DB, I've more than had my fill after 500 episodes and Kai. Little about what I'm hearing is enticing me to watch it, especially after so many disappointing revivals. I think there are plenty of GT ideas that surpass Super's that you don't give enough credit to. For crying out loud, you complain about putting a limit on a character as bad writing which is a ridiculous statement. Limitations are good.

For whatever faults GT has, it had the guts to end, rather than stretch the story with no end in sight. GT felt from the beginning that it wasn't meant to be a long show, so the ambiance of melancholy and references to the past do fit in thematically. Trotting out Freeza for the millionth time isn't interesting and is lazy.

don't we already have enough loud/bratty/tomboyish females in this series? Pan being super strong, yet a little nieve and gentle would be a nice change of pace.

Is it really a change of pace? Gohan was naive and gentle when we first meet him. The execution of Pan in GT could've been better, and she could've been less of a damsel, but her love for her grandpa and even Giru's affection for her were really sweet. I liked seeing the adventures maturing her. They could've gone further with that arc, but I enjoy it none the less moreso than if she's just a strong little girl. Making her bratty at the beginning gives the writers a place to go. If she's just nice and then by the end of the story she's still nice isn't as interesting to me.

[MR.Mark]

So this comes down to you like aspects of GT Pan, I don't, fair enough, moving on.

However there's nothing bad about having some Goku traits for Pan. Like you always say, comes down to execution, including making her stronger. Gohan being gentle isn't valid, we're taking about female characters here.

Now your splitting hairs about Goku and his limits. That's the theme of Dragon Ball, Goku finding limits then over coming them. One of the refreshing aspects of Super is that Goku and Vegeta are in a situation where they are now meeting people that they may have to accept that they will NEVER surpass, now that's knowing your limits. Plus neither Goku or Vegeta had to be turned into kids to achieve this story progression, so there you go.

Now ,Super may end with Goku surpassing Beerus and Zeno with Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct 4 Ozaru, but we'll have to wait and see. I hope not.

You can keep repeating yourself about Freeza all you want, you haven't watched the show and it's not over yet, so it's a moot point.

GT ending had little to do with guts and more to do with lack of financial success.

[ABED]

However there's nothing bad about having some Goku traits for Pan. Like you always say, comes down to execution, including making her stronger. Gohan being gentle isn't valid, we're taking about female characters here.
Some, but I'd rather her be unique. While there's a novel aspect of her being a warrior and a girl, that will be sure to lose its potency really quick. There has to be something more than "strong female warrior". If that's all there is to her, then there's nothing.

Explain how I'm splitting hairs. Because being temporarily weaker than someone isn't the same as a technique having a drawback.

It's not a moot point. I dont' have to watch something to know that continually trotting out any villain to have them lose time after time isn't fresh. No matter how many times you want to say "you haven't seen it" won't change the fact that it's true that the bloom is off the rose. Nothing they can do with Freeza will be remotely fresh because we've seen both scenarios play out.

GT ending had little to do with guts and more to do with lack of financial success.

And yet it's not apparent in the final product. It all feels like it's moving towards an ending, whereas Super feels like a giant attempt to keep milking the story past a logical end point. Instead of pushing the story forward, it creates more hierarchy.

[MR.Mark]

Being salty again, if you want to keep comparing two shows that exists for the same reason, to make money, that's your prerogative. You also can't say GT is more satisfying just because it ended vs a show that hasin't yet because it's both popular and has ideas worth making it last past 64 episodes.

I've seen both shows, and imo Super is better executed and opened up the world in more fun creative ways with WAY more new enjoyable characters.

You may think the ideas have dried up and the series needs to end, but I don't. Toriyama has new ideas worth adding to the lore.

I want Pan to be more important moving forward, in strength and character, and that's my opinion once again. Pan being strong doesin't automatically make her just another warrior, she can have other character traits beyond being a brat.

Again, I need to see where Super goes but I love the fact that Goku and Vegeta still aren't surpassing theses gods left and right so far.

You can't predict the future with Freeza and your only making your opinions on the matter look petty and childish.

[ABED]

Toriyama has new ideas worth adding to the lore.

Multiverse isn't interesting. It's just another location and lore isn't interesting in and of itself. The stories have to be good, otherwise it's like any idea - next to worthless without proper execution.

Again, I need to see where Super goes but I love the fact that Goku and Vegeta still aren't surpassing theses gods left and right so far.

We agree. It's nice to know that the hero hasn't immediately overcome an obstacle right after introducing it.

You can't predict the future with Freeza and your only making your opinions on the matter look petty and childish.

It's not childish. I didn't pout, I didn't fuss. I simply stated that there are two possibilities with Freeza because we know he ultimately won't be successful in defeating Goku. Either he is defeated yet again or he does something redemptive. How is that childish to state that I'm not interested in continuously bringing out old villains just to see them lose their aura? I didn't like it in the Cell arc, I didn't like it in RoF or GT, and I don't like it now. I hope I am wrong and they do something surprising with him, but I'm not holding my breath. I've seen too much at this point to not be rationally skeptical. I would much rather they explore Goku and Vegeta's relationship and new characters like Beerus and Whis who are fresh than to use old villains who had their day in the sun.

[MR.Mark]

And now this debate has evolved to, you don't like the new ideas from Toriyama, I do, fair enough, moving on. Super by and large has been better excecuted in GT, imo, having watched both shows and judged them fairly.

The Freeza stuff is getting sad now man. This isn't a matter of opinion, we literally DO NOT KNOW what will happen with his character right now. You are being petty and childish because you lack an open mind to watch the show let alone give it a chance.

To me he's been super memorable since coming back this arc, I can't wait to see what happens with Freeza next.

[ekrolo2]

I don't know how anyone can say Toriyama's recent lore additions are in any way worthwhile without busting a nut from laughter. He just fucking introduced a concept where you get special cells that help you turn Super Saiyan faster who's quantity relies on how nice you are.

[MR.Mark]

Doesin't bother me because it's been a bargain sale since the Cell arc, but that's my opinion.

I don't LOVE every little new thing Toriyama has introduced in interviews and what not, but by and large there either fun new additions or harmless to the grand scheme of things.

[ekrolo2]

I detest the entire idea of "Well the series has been repeating this shit story idea for decades, so it's fine now!". I have literally never seen any other series use this as a free pass besides Dragon Ball. A bad idea is a bad idea, now and then. Creating new and exciting ways of figuring out how to make a shit story decision even more shit is not how anyone not from Bizarro World writes anything.

Fix your series or put it down like the mangy old suffering dog that it is.

[MR.Mark]

I'm more middle ground I guess. If not full on hating Super means I'm giving it a free pass that's your own salty opinion.

I'm certainly not giving GT a free pass, I guess Super has become the new GT because some people can't take off there nostalgia glasses.

Super has problems but the series always had some if you pick it apart enough.

I like Super more than GT because of how it's executed, not because Dragon Ball was some masterpiece before Super came along and ruined it's perfection.

There's more than 64 episodes worth of content that entertain and hold my interest, I want to see where it goes. GT didn't do that for me, that's all there is to it.

[ABED]

Why do you keep saying I'm being salty?

You are being petty and childish because you lack an open mind to watch the show let alone give it a chance.

That's not petty and childish. I'm simply rationally skeptic. After not caring for Revival of F and the direction of DB as a whole over the last 20 years, plus not caring for the fights in either of the last two movies, plus the abundance of terrible revivals in the last few years, it's not petty to say I'm skeptical of Super and I'm not interested enough to invest the time in watching 100 episodes and counting when they do things like bringing back Freeza TWICE and spends the first two arcs adapting two movies! No, I'm not that open minded, but I am active minded and there are only so many hours in a day and there's already so much interesting TV out there vying for my attention, what about Super is so interesting that it's a better use of my time than watching the glut of good TV that isn't going to the well with old villains and a seemingly endless parade of transformations?

[Saturnine]

I'd been thinking of re-watching GT in its entirety and making a comprehensive list of issues with it, but I went like 40 episodes in before I realized there was a Japanese version to be found - that way I'd be fairer, because I wouldn't be bringing FUNi dub-isms into the equation. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to bring myself to re-watch the show yet again. But the whole boring/entertaining thing aside, what really bothers me about GT is how deeply they integrated filler and theatrical movies into its aesthetic, the biggest offender of course being the Super 17 arc. I won't even begin getting into what was wrong with their treatment of the dead etc, that's the biggest affront to Toriyama's world in the history of the Dragonball anime, probably.

I didn't like the Shadow Dragon saga either, simply because I could not find justification as to why the dragons were as powerful as they were, the entire premise was flawed IMO. Not to mention that yeah, they could at least have had the others handle the weaker ones instead of leaving them all to Goku. I didn't like the ending either even though yes, it was quite emotional. But Goku leaving was never properly explained or justified, which makes me think it was entirely arbitrary - not to mention that canon Shenron doesn't have the agency to decide something like that on his own at all. These flaws aside, GT definitely is watchable, but I'll always be negatively biased towards it just because it epitomizes the Toei universe at the expense of Toriyama's.

[MR.Mark]

You are being petty and childish because you lack an open mind to watch the show let alone give it a chance.

That's not petty and childish. I'm simply rationally skeptic. After not caring for Revival of F and the direction of DB as a whole over the last 20 years, plus not caring for the fights in either of the last two movies, plus the abundance of terrible revivals in the last few years, it's not petty to say I'm skeptical of Super and I'm not interested enough to invest the time in watching 100 episodes and counting when they do things like bringing back Freeza TWICE and spends the first two arcs adapting two movies! No, I'm not that open minded, but I am active minded and there are only so many hours in a day and there's already so much interesting TV out there vying for my attention, what about Super is so interesting that it's a better use of my time than watching the glut of good TV that isn't going to the well with old villains and a seemingly endless parade of transformations?

Once again, execution, and I find Super has done this better than GT, you don't, fair enough, moving on

Back on topic, I've made it clear what I don't like about GT before it turned into a pointless Super vs GT debate.