Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

[ABED]

But Goku ultimately DIDN'T defeat Freeza the last time they fought. Dirty or not Freeza got the best of him and Whis had to step in.

Freeza lost the battle but won the war. Goku got a do over then took him out because Freeza was just THAT dangerous to keep alive.

This was further backed up with Goku's conversation with Freeza in hell.

When Goku says Freeza is the worst kind of scum, you know he's being handled well.

And that lackey had to step in for Freeza. Both sides had interference.

Freeza didn't win the war. And technically Freeza got a do-over when he was wished back to life by the DBs.

Characters can say anything they want, but evidence shows that Freeza has lost every time at bat. The biggest danger isn't due to Freeza's strength, it's due to him being able to survive the vacuum of space.

Even though I don't think Baby is as interesting as Freeza, I'd still rather watch the Baby arc than see a villain constantly come back. Just like I think The Joker is a great villain, but I don't want every Batman movie to feature The Joker.

[MR.Mark]

Almost all the characters got do overs with the dragon balls...more than once, why do they get a pass over Freeza?

That's right because you have already made up your mind, I GET IT.

You don't like Freeza coming back, I do. In fact a lot have been enjoying him in the TOP.

Freeza is still a threat, he has been a cunning manipulator in the current arc.

Annnd once again, I for one am enjoying it and feel it's well executed.

The Joker has been defeated about an million times more than Freeza has and people still love him. Comes down to EXECUTION. Freeza being back hardly means he's going to be the only villain in the series now, that's reaching.

I like what's being done with Freeza, the number of defeats on his belt is meaningless if Toriyama can find new ways to make him relevant.

[Noah]

Pretty much everyone agrees on that point, even those that like the show will concede that it's Toei's DB. It's like any show after a new showrunner takes over.

Why? Cause you think none of its concepts couldn't been brought by Toriyama?

[ABED]

Pretty much everyone agrees on that point, even those that like the show will concede that it's Toei's DB. It's like any show after a new showrunner takes over.

Why? Cause you think none of its concepts couldn't been brought by Toriyama?

Not that they couldn't, but they don't seem Toriyama-esque, and the execution is tonally different from Toriyama's work. There's an air of melancholy that pervades GT.

[ABED]

Plenty of people have brought up death has very little value in DB due to the Dragon Balls. The characters have been brought back multiple times. Why compound that problem by bringing back yet another character? If every character is constantly coming back to life, death has little value and if there are no stakes that affects the execution of the story. It's one of the reasons I liked GT's ending. Goku died to put the world back to normal. He only came back after YEARS later and even that was a temporary revival just so he could see his Great, great... grandson.

Execution includes the number of times a villain is brought back, so the number of defeats IS relevant. At a certain point he becomes a Saturday Morning Cartoon or Power Rangers villain. "I'll get you next time, Goku!"

Whoops, sorry for the double post.

[MR.Mark]

Either way this is Dragon Ball, the damage is already done, death rarely has consequence. If Goku and the others can come back to life several times, there's no issue with Freeza doing the same.

Especially if it's EXECUTED right, and IMO Toriyama has redeemed himself from the meh ROF story.

Freeza has been great, and so far nothing of his actions have played out like a typical power ranger villain. He's being Freeza, only even better with great interactions with other characters.

GT Goku fighting Freeza and Cell in hell and making the pair look like Bulk and Skull, now that was pathetic.

Those were caricature versions from Toei, I'll take Super any day.

[Timetraveller]

An unbiased assessment of GT said by a guy that has bias with DBZ/GT, that's not hypocritical at all.

Goku doesn't have limits? Are we not watching the same series? What was the whole theme behind the BOG movie?

Transformations are transformations, this argument is redundant as fuck. I am tired of them and I like that UI has a minimalist approach that HOPEFULLY will lead to Goku not needing more. What show has more tansformations has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

I'm not here to get into a powerscalling debate ethier because I find that to pretentious for this series. Interesting and fun story progression is more important, and another strong female fighter like Pan assisting Goku and Vegeta (and possibly Uub) is more interesting then giving Goku a furry design while everyone cheers him on and does nothing.

If Pan being strong breaks your own logic that's you own issue.

It's called consistency. Goku's fought a god of destruction and has just fought someone who's literally stronger than a god of destruction. Pan won't be old enough to do anything for at least 5-10 years and Goku would have made unsurmountable gains in power by then. Unless Goku has another heart virus or they get rid of his as a main character, any major threat will be dealt with by Goku, making Pan a filler gag character at best.

Power scaling matters or else Yajirobe would be fighting Beerus and taking down Zeno or Oolong would've defeated Buu while Goku just sat back and watched. You probably wouldn't mind that but nearly everyone else like some internal consistency within the story.

Everyone cheering him on? You mean like everyone watching the Beerus fight, or everyone just huddled at Bulma's house for the whole Zamasu saga.

Stop calling them furries like it's some sort of insult. LMAO. They're saiyans. Humanoids with tails who transform into full blown monkeys at the sight of a full moon. Toei bringing back the root of the saiyan transformation was creative and something to be applauded for.

[Timetraveller]

When did this become a "let's nitpick the flaws of GT and bash it thread"? For every single flaw in GT, I can guarantee that Super's done something just as egregious if not worse.

Feel free to create your own thread though since there's many negative threads about Super.

An unbiased assessment of GT said by a guy that has bias with DBZ/GT, that's not hypocritical at all.

I'm much less biased than you (since I rewatched GT recently). I'll admit things that Super does right and will criticize GT for things it does wrong. Ultra Instinct is a fantastic idea that's more creative than a silly recolor of existing forms. The Jiren vs Goku fight had probably the best animation I've seen in the series. What I don't do is say "Super sucks for one thing and praise GT for doing the exact thing" since they share many if not all flaws or bash GT for not meeting my fan service expectations.

[MR.Mark]

I'm sorry, I forgot it's only OK to nitpick apart Super. I only voiced my opinion on GT, it's not my fault that it turned into a Super vs GT debate.

Enough of your "I'm less biased then you" retorts, it makes you look childish. Everyone is voicing there opinions here, but it's up you whether you want to debate intelligently or act all petty.

I like Super more than GT, and I more than have backed up my opinions as to why.

It's called consistency.

This is all opinion, but have you ever watched MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissections? If you think the series had airtight logic before Super came along I'd think again.

AGAIN I'm not getting into a power level debate with you, you can keep that to yourself.

[Cetra]

I'm sorry, I forgot it's only OK to nitpick apart Super. I only voiced my opinion on GT, it's not my fault that it turned into a Super vs GT debate.

Enough of your "I'm less biased then you" retorts, it makes you look childish. Everyone is voicing there opinions here, but it's up you whether you want to debate intelligently or act all petty.

I like Super more than GT, and I more than have backed up my opinions as to why.

Of course its your fault. Just like its theirs.

[MR.Mark]

What is my fault exactly? I clicked on a topic about feelings on GT 20 years later. Made my opinion on it, obviously made people feel challenged/ offended by it, and a debate erupted about Super vs GT. This was not my intention.

[Cetra]

It does not matter if it was not your intention to debate. The moment you saw there was a potential debate about this you were aware of this gun power barrel you were sitting on, what this might result in and still decided to respond, later also in a similiar fashion, no matter the consequences. You did not just realize it in your last two posts as I have already seen you complain about that earlier. This is why I do not participate in a fraction of the conversations I would like to. I would have way more unnecessary talks than I want and I already am sick of those that happen because they are unnecessary as well. But you can be sure that once you posts something someone will post something as well, no matter how often it has been said before, no matter how factually incorrect or opinionated or annoying it is, et cetera. You get the gist of it. I love GT by far more than Super but you do not see me defending GT from your posts that also reflect some heavy bias and double standard. Its not just like that with their posts. You had the choice to not post and you have the choice of how to formulate your posts. If you are not happy with the outcome you better better walk away. I do the same thing once I see the topic is done as far as I want or when its no use.

And regarding Super and GT - GT gets way more of the unfair treatment. As much as Super gets, GT gets it more for the mere fact that GT already, the moment you even only think of it, some fool already rushes to his keyboard, bringing in a falsely phrased, totally biased and not even close to being conform with actual definitions "It ain't cannnnnnnnon! GT sucked ass anyway LULZ! *insert anti-social rest reply of a 15 year old* " comment even if that was not part of the topic itself, giving not even a normal talk about it a chance.

[MR.Mark]

"It ain't cannnnnnnnon! GT sucked ass anyway LULZ! *insert anti-social rest reply of a 15 year old* " comment even if that was not part of the topic itself, giving not even a normal talk about it a chance.

Smart ass comments from me occasionally aside, I used intelligent arguments to back up my claims. Never the less I've said my peace, this topic should go back to GT.

[Cetra]

"It ain't cannnnnnnnon! GT sucked ass anyway LULZ! *insert anti-social rest reply of a 15 year old* " comment even if that was not part of the topic itself, giving not even a normal talk about it a chance.

Smart ass comments from me occasionally aside, I used intelligent arguments to back up my claims. Never the less I've said my peace, this topic should go back to GT.

I have been jumping back and forth between your posts of the last pages but I cannot see the intelligent argument to back up any claims. Opinions, somewhat unfortunately phrased like conclusions of factual states sometimes. They are very much opinions based on what you think has happened in the show. Which is fine. But its not the same. Especially when you throw in a word like "claim" like you actually want to talk about discovering facts.

[ABED]

While I wish Pan had been more than a damsel, I like the mix of Goku, Pan, and Trunks together. Many have said they wanted stronger characters to go, but character dynamics is more important than just who is strongest is. Goku makes sense because he's the main character. Trunks make sense because he has Bulma's technical knowledge, which gives him a role in the story beyond being a physically strong character. Finally, Pan is a controversial choice, but one I really like. Frist, she's female and for a series that doesn't have the greatest track record with female characters, giving her prominence was a step in the right direction. Second, she brings out a welcome side of Goku - his paternal side. Third, while the execution was faulty, having her start off as bratty gives the writers somewhere to go with her.

[MR.Mark]

"It ain't cannnnnnnnon! GT sucked ass anyway LULZ! *insert anti-social rest reply of a 15 year old* " comment even if that was not part of the topic itself, giving not even a normal talk about it a chance.

Smart ass comments from me occasionally aside, I used intelligent arguments to back up my claims. Never the less I've said my peace, this topic should go back to GT.

I have been jumping back and forth between your posts of the last pages but I cannot see the intelligent argument to back up any claims. Opinions, somewhat unfortunately phrased like conclusions of factual states sometimes. They are very much opinions based on what you think has happened in the show. Which is fine. But its not the same. Especially when you throw in a word like "claim" like you actually want to talk about discovering facts.

I've used various examples to why I prefer certain elements of story telling and I feel I backed up my claims. I also have given strong reasons for why Freeza has been great in Super, and why I wish better for Pan for how she was wasted in GT.

A positive thing to say about GT, I did like when Bra told Vegeta to shave his mustache.

[sunsetshimmer]

I disagree with shadow dragons arc being boring at start. Haze Shenron and Oceanus Shenron are one of my very favourite episodes in series. The only dragon that sucked here was Rage Shenron to me. Now if i were to rate every arc:

-Black Star Dragon Balls arc: 7/10
Great throwback to original series, a lot of humour, Giru is awesome, M2 and Rildo are awesome, Pan in bee costume is the cutest thing in universe. Although some of episodes around Luud cult were boring. Fight with worms was completely pointless and Trunks was useless in fights (he helped in other ways tho)

-Baby arc: 9/10
Great story, great villain, great SSJ4, every character did something, Revenge Death Ball is awesome. Can't give 10/10 because Pan wasn't much useful in this arc and Giru was absent for most of it as well

-Super 17 arc: 5/10
Good concept, badass villain, Goku vs Super 17 was the best looking and most stunning fight in series, but it was short, dumb and completely wasted whole back from hell concept even showing Cooler on TV and didn't even making him fight

-Shadow Dragons arc: 8/10
Amazing concept, original enemies, Pan was awesome against Haze and Oceanus both being amazing villains, amazing ending DB deserved, great Nuova Shenron, Gogeta, dragon fist. On the bad side, some episodes looked really bad, Omega was completely wasted with all those powers he almost never used, Rage Shenron was simply terrible. Entire saga wasn't also explained enough.

[GT_Goten10]

I disagree with shadow dragons arc being boring at start. Haze Shenron and Oceanus Shenron are one of my very favourite episodes in series. The only dragon that sucked here was Rage Shenron to me. Now if i were to rate every arc:

-Black Star Dragon Balls arc: 7/10
Great throwback to original series, a lot of humour, Giru is awesome, M2 and Rildo are awesome, Pan in bee costume is the cutest thing in universe. Although some of episodes around Luud cult were boring. Fight with worms was completely pointless and Trunks was useless in fights (he helped in other ways tho)

-Baby arc: 9/10
Great story, great villain, great SSJ4, every character did something, Revenge Death Ball is awesome. Can't give 10/10 because Pan wasn't much useful in this arc and Giru was absent for most of it as well

-Super 17 arc: 5/10
Good concept, badass villain, Goku vs Super 17 was the best looking and most stunning fight in series, but it was short, dumb and completely wasted whole back from hell concept even showing Cooler on TV and didn't even making him fight

-Shadow Dragons arc: 8/10
Amazing concept, original enemies, Pan was awesome against Haze and Oceanus both being amazing villains, amazing ending DB deserved, great Nuova Shenron, Gogeta, dragon fist. On the bad side, some episodes looked really bad, Omega was completely wasted with all those powers he almost never used, Rage Shenron was simply terrible. Entire saga wasn't also explained enough.

I absolutly agree

[bleed0range]

Smart ass comments from me occasionally aside, I used intelligent arguments to back up my claims. Never the less I've said my peace, this topic should go back to GT.

I have been jumping back and forth between your posts of the last pages but I cannot see the intelligent argument to back up any claims. Opinions, somewhat unfortunately phrased like conclusions of factual states sometimes. They are very much opinions based on what you think has happened in the show. Which is fine. But its not the same. Especially when you throw in a word like "claim" like you actually want to talk about discovering facts.

I've used various examples to why I prefer certain elements of story telling and I feel I backed up my claims. I also have given strong reasons for why Freeza has been great in Super, and why I wish better for Pan for how she was wasted in GT.

A positive thing to say about GT, I did like when Bra told Vegeta to shave his mustache.

One thing I’ve noticed that separates TOEI from Toriyama is that Toriyama never forgets that it’s the character interactions that make the story truly interesting. That’s why GT moments like the mustache thing or the ending resonate with people. Because they have the characters doing something with each other instead of mindless action/fighting.

He never forgets the personalities are what make it fun. It’s fun to see Goku riff off Vegeta and vice versa. Most people who are happy with Freeza bring back like me probably like it because his personality is consistent and fun to bounce off other characters.

GT does not put the main cast together in a way to have that fun interaction like it should and betrays its characters and their personalities which make them so unique.