Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ziolus]

Yo!
Here's my huge power levels list.
[spoiler]https://docs.google.com/document/d/157N ... 1r7aA/edit[/spoiler]

[BlueVegerot]

In the manga vegeta should still be a good deal stronger than goku right?

In the black arc, the only reason goku was stronger was cause he completed the blue form while vegeta still could only do the ssg to ssb switch which meant he would bleed out quicker, however due to the htc training his base should have been stronger and now goku hasn't trained since the arc ended while vegeta trained with whis until the very end of bulma pregnancy and hes got the cssb form

[Miracles]

In the manga vegeta should still be a good deal stronger than goku right?

In the black arc, the only reason goku was stronger was cause he completed the blue form while vegeta still could only do the ssg to ssb switch which meant he would bleed out quicker, however due to the htc training his base should have been stronger and now goku hasn't trained since the arc ended while vegeta trained with whis until the very end of bulma pregnancy and hes got the cssb form

Whis specifically states that Vegeta has caught up to Goku again after mastering Blue. They are once again equals in the manga.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Still, Kefla wanted to keep fighting Goku so she could get stronger. She was sad when he didn't get up and was happy when he did. Whis stated that Goku was forced. Nothing Goku did made a difference. Kefla was never damaged. Goku tried to win and failed.

It does not matter if Kefla wanted to fight more against Goku or if he was saddened by his '' defeat '', this is not going to change what we saw in the fight and what levels of power were established (I do not understand why you keep quoting it).

Kefla is a Saiyajin who was extremely excited about the fight against Goku, regardless of the power the enemy had, she just wanted to get stronger and experience that power she'd never felt before (it's normal for her to get excited, like I said, will not change nothing).
Kefla was never damaged? Watch the EP again.

First, Kefla got her arms numb ONLY with a punch from Goku (Goku deflected from Ki's attacks and managed to hit her and even pushes her back):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After she increases her Ki and tries to attack Goku again, but can not keep up with Goku's speed and takes a punch directly (it was clear the face of pain she did):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Not only Shin, but Kyabe and Champa were also thinking that Kefla might have been defeated by that punch:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And after she emerges from the rubble, she is breathless, scratched (before she was not) and shows difficulty in getting up:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

In the end, cornered, Kefla needed to use Ki attacks to distract Goku and catch him with low guard (even in a difficult situation, Kefla SSJ did not simply increase his Ki and overcame Goku, she did not demonstrate that power you affirm in no time , on the contrary, Champa and Vados were always worried about her facing Goku with full power)

Vados and Champa's worries mean nothing, Goku ONLY numbs, not injures the arms of a a SSJ Kefla holding back. After that, SHE powers up. Then Goku powers KK up AGAIN and hits her ONLY to cause discomfort but not impair or give him the advantage. After that attack, Kefla stated "She was FAR FROM OVER" and THEN smiles. Then she KO's Goku back to normal mode with just ONE KICK! Whis stated, just like the Genki Dama that overcame Goku and incited UI, so does Kefla's massive energy, that rivals the bomb and OVERCAME Goku with JUST ONE KICK incited UI. Stop with this bad excuse about Goku being off gaurd, Kefla TOO took a "CLEAN Blow" from Goku and didn't KO her! The statements = the feats.

It was not said that Kefla was holding herself, she even INCREASED her power before facing Goku SSB KK.

And although Kefla had not been damaged in the first punch of the Blue KK, her arms went numb, even though she had DEFENDED the punch (Kefla herself was impressed).
And about the punch that Goku hit in Kefla, even Champa and Kyabe thought she had been defeated, how did it not give Goku an advantage?

But of course the words of Vados and Champa mean nothing when it is convenient for you ...
Goku was defeated for 2 reasons, which are SIMPLE to understand:

- He was low on energy and Beerus said that Goku should end the fight in the next attack (which was a Kamehameha, but that did not hit Kefla).

- After his attack fails, Goku takes a kick from Kefla with the low guard (he was caught unawares, so it is normal for him to feel the impact of the blow), and '' lost '' the Kaioken, and as Beerus had indicated, Goku ran out of energy and so returned to his normal form (but he was not knocked out and neither was unconscious, he just did not have the energy to maintain the transformation)

Kefla was only able to urge Goku to activate the UI because he was already tired

[Miracles]

It does not matter if Kefla wanted to fight more against Goku or if he was saddened by his '' defeat '', this is not going to change what we saw in the fight and what levels of power were established (I do not understand why you keep quoting it).

Kefla is a Saiyajin who was extremely excited about the fight against Goku, regardless of the power the enemy had, she just wanted to get stronger and experience that power she'd never felt before (it's normal for her to get excited, like I said, will not change nothing).
Kefla was never damaged? Watch the EP again.

First, Kefla got her arms numb ONLY with a punch from Goku (Goku deflected from Ki's attacks and managed to hit her and even pushes her back):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After she increases her Ki and tries to attack Goku again, but can not keep up with Goku's speed and takes a punch directly (it was clear the face of pain she did):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Not only Shin, but Kyabe and Champa were also thinking that Kefla might have been defeated by that punch:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And after she emerges from the rubble, she is breathless, scratched (before she was not) and shows difficulty in getting up:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

In the end, cornered, Kefla needed to use Ki attacks to distract Goku and catch him with low guard (even in a difficult situation, Kefla SSJ did not simply increase his Ki and overcame Goku, she did not demonstrate that power you affirm in no time , on the contrary, Champa and Vados were always worried about her facing Goku with full power)

Vados and Champa's worries mean nothing, Goku ONLY numbs, not injures the arms of a a SSJ Kefla holding back. After that, SHE powers up. Then Goku powers KK up AGAIN and hits her ONLY to cause discomfort but not impair or give him the advantage. After that attack, Kefla stated "She was FAR FROM OVER" and THEN smiles. Then she KO's Goku back to normal mode with just ONE KICK! Whis stated, just like the Genki Dama that overcame Goku and incited UI, so does Kefla's massive energy, that rivals the bomb and OVERCAME Goku with JUST ONE KICK incited UI. Stop with this bad excuse about Goku being off gaurd, Kefla TOO took a "CLEAN Blow" from Goku and didn't KO her! The statements = the feats.

It was not said that Kefla was holding herself, she even INCREASED her power before facing Goku SSB KK.

And although Kefla had not been damaged in the first punch of the Blue KK, her arms went numb, even though she had DEFENDED the punch (Kefla herself was impressed).
And about the punch that Goku hit in Kefla, even Champa and Kyabe thought she had been defeated, how did it not give Goku an advantage?

But of course the words of Vados and Champa mean nothing when it is convenient for you ...
Goku was defeated for 2 reasons, which are SIMPLE to understand:

- He was low on energy and Beerus said that Goku should end the fight in the next attack (which was a Kamehameha, but that did not hit Kefla).

- After his attack fails, Goku takes a kick from Kefla with the low guard (he was caught unawares, so it is normal for him to feel the impact of the blow), and '' lost '' the Kaioken, and as Beerus had indicated, Goku ran out of energy and so returned to his normal form (but he was not knocked out and neither was unconscious, he just did not have the energy to maintain the transformation)

Kefla was only able to urge Goku to activate the UI because he was already tired

No, you are factually wrong again. You are so caught up in Goku being tired and able to punch Kefla. Well a tired Goku was able to combo and overpower a fused Zamasu who was way stronger than him. Yet it didn't MAKE a difference did it? Same here, Kefla smiles and says "she is far from over" after getting punched in the gut and proceeds to ONE HIT KO Goku back to base mode. Her arms only went numb cause she didn't power up her SSJ and that SHOWS she was holding back. It demonstrated how powerful she was and Whis DEFINED her strength that it rivaled the bomb. The fans don't get to interpret the canon fact when TOEI has already told us how strong SSJ Kefla is and her spirit bomb energy is what caused Goku to go UI AGAIN.

[BWri]

An arc for a beerus vs goku rematch is actually useless. Gokus already fighting someone who is just as strong, if not stronger than beerus. Maybe an episode of them fighting, not an arc.

In those terms, somewhat of a mini arc. There is no doubt Beerus will challenge Goku after the Tournament, he is already showing some reactions pointing towards it. It will also clear misinformation and provide some power scaling in terms of Jiren and Beerus. Depending how Goku will do against Jiren Rematch in the TOP and vs Beerus Rematch we will be able ( to some degree ) establish the difference in the power levels of Jiren and Beerus.

Then we at least have to wait for the arc to be over to see if goku even wins against jiren. The manga recently opened up the possibity of jiren leaving the tournament if something does happen in his universe. So we might leave this arc with jiren not being defeated at all.
To me anyways, as soon as whis said "perhaps surpassed it" when he was comparing jiren to the level of gods of destruction, it gave me an idea of jiren being in a league of hia own, above G.O.Ds and below the angels. But we have to see more of jiren, as we havent even seen him anywhere close to full power.

Also, we saw in the manga how gods of destruction are nearly on equal terms in power, only difference is skill set. Jiren being stronger than belmod would give you an indication on how well he will fair against a god of destruction. But thats if you take the manga scaling of gods being roughly equal to each other.

I don't think the gods are roughly equal to one another but I do think they're in the same realm of power, enough to hurt one another at any rate. I think Beerus is certainly top dog when it comes to all the GoD as he wasn't too phased by the all on one at the start of it. Belmod seemed to have been one of the better ones as well, but I'm going to go with the idea that he's a trickster character who's inferior to Beerus. So I think while Jiren is superior to Belmod, that he is perhaps inferior or level with Beerus, which is likely an unpopular opinion. I'm just going with the idea that Toriyama seems to want Beerus and Whis to be benchmarks for a long time to come.

[buutenks]

So, what are the opinions on Kefla's power? is she GK level, fresh ssj blue/kk level? kkx20 level? On one hand Whis says Kefla hit Goku with something similar to the GK, on the other hand, she had trouble with a worn out ssj blue kk Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So, what are the opinions on Kefla's power? is she GK level, fresh ssj blue/kk level? kkx20 level? On one hand Whis says Kefla hit Goku with something similar to the GK, on the other hand, she had trouble with a worn out ssj blue kk Goku.

Never actually saw her have trouble with goku before ultra instinct at all. All i saw her was take hits then get back up all fine (although with some scrathes). Although i dont really care what level of power people think she was before ssj2. People disagree, and they would never change their opinions. So arguing it is pointless.

[Kenneth La Torre]

In those terms, somewhat of a mini arc. There is no doubt Beerus will challenge Goku after the Tournament, he is already showing some reactions pointing towards it. It will also clear misinformation and provide some power scaling in terms of Jiren and Beerus. Depending how Goku will do against Jiren Rematch in the TOP and vs Beerus Rematch we will be able ( to some degree ) establish the difference in the power levels of Jiren and Beerus.

Then we at least have to wait for the arc to be over to see if goku even wins against jiren. The manga recently opened up the possibity of jiren leaving the tournament if something does happen in his universe. So we might leave this arc with jiren not being defeated at all.
To me anyways, as soon as whis said "perhaps surpassed it" when he was comparing jiren to the level of gods of destruction, it gave me an idea of jiren being in a league of hia own, above G.O.Ds and below the angels. But we have to see more of jiren, as we havent even seen him anywhere close to full power.

Also, we saw in the manga how gods of destruction are nearly on equal terms in power, only difference is skill set. Jiren being stronger than belmod would give you an indication on how well he will fair against a god of destruction. But thats if you take the manga scaling of gods being roughly equal to each other.

I don't think the gods are roughly equal to one another but I do think they're in the same realm of power, enough to hurt one another at any rate. I think Beerus is certainly top dog when it comes to all the GoD as he wasn't too phased by the all on one at the start of it. Belmod seemed to have been one of the better ones as well, but I'm going to go with the idea that he's a trickster character who's inferior to Beerus. So I think while Jiren is superior to Belmod, that he is perhaps inferior or level with Beerus, which is likely an unpopular opinion. I'm just going with the idea that Toriyama seems to want Beerus and Whis to be benchmarks for a long time to come.

The bench mark for beerus is long gone with beerus, as just like you, i also believe jiren is on the level of beerus (though sometimes i think jiren may be superior). Now the benchmark for whis is still there, and due to how massive the gap between beerus and whis is, it would probably take a UI Vegito like being to be able to possibly rival whis.

[Kenneth La Torre]

And heck, we dont even know if jiren is going to be surpassed. We just assume he is.

[Hugo Boss]

So, what are the opinions on Kefla's power? is she GK level, fresh ssj blue/kk level? kkx20 level? On one hand Whis says Kefla hit Goku with something similar to the GK, on the other hand, she had trouble with a worn out ssj blue kk Goku.

Never actually saw her have trouble with goku before ultra instinct at all. All i saw her was take hits then get back up all fine (although with some scrathes). Although i dont really care what level of power people think she was before ssj2. People disagree, and they would never change their opinions. So arguing it is pointless.

Just a friendly reminder, multi-posting is not really welcome here. Try to use the “edit” option if you think you have more to add or quote the posts you will comment.

By the way, I think Kafla’s powerlevel discussion has become tiresome at this point. People interpret it the way they want. It may be the time to move on.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So, what are the opinions on Kefla's power? is she GK level, fresh ssj blue/kk level? kkx20 level? On one hand Whis says Kefla hit Goku with something similar to the GK, on the other hand, she had trouble with a worn out ssj blue kk Goku.

Never actually saw her have trouble with goku before ultra instinct at all. All i saw her was take hits then get back up all fine (although with some scrathes). Although i dont really care what level of power people think she was before ssj2. People disagree, and they would never change their opinions. So arguing it is pointless.

Just a friendly reminder, multi-posting is not really welcome here. Try to use the “edit” option if you think you have more to add or quote the posts you will comment.

By the way, I think Kafla’s powerlevel discussion has become tiresome at this point. People interpret it the way they want. It may be the time to move on.

Multi posting as in more than one post in a row? In that case, i apologize. I'm glad you agree with me on keflas power discussion. It has become tiresome indeed. No one will change their opinion on her power, so discussing it further is not necessary.

[supercat]

A new-and-improved Ultimate Gohan, who is presumably SSB-tier appeared only a tad stronger than the Namekian duo, so at this point, it's pretty much implied that both Saonel and Pirina are leagues beyond SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) or any form of Majin Buu.

Current Ultimate Gohan > Saonel = Pirina > Piccolo > / = SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Finally some good power scaling that shows just how far behind Buu currently stands.

[Marlowe89]

Finally some good power scaling that shows just how far behind Buu currently stands.

I'm not really sure why you feel the need to post this almost every time you post in this thread. There isn't even a consensus as to how strong Ultimate Gohan actually is, so it's not like this episode indisputably leads us into some foolproof conclusion regarding the strength of the U6 Namekians.

[BWri]

Then we at least have to wait for the arc to be over to see if goku even wins against jiren. The manga recently opened up the possibity of jiren leaving the tournament if something does happen in his universe. So we might leave this arc with jiren not being defeated at all.
To me anyways, as soon as whis said "perhaps surpassed it" when he was comparing jiren to the level of gods of destruction, it gave me an idea of jiren being in a league of hia own, above G.O.Ds and below the angels. But we have to see more of jiren, as we havent even seen him anywhere close to full power.

Also, we saw in the manga how gods of destruction are nearly on equal terms in power, only difference is skill set. Jiren being stronger than belmod would give you an indication on how well he will fair against a god of destruction. But thats if you take the manga scaling of gods being roughly equal to each other.

I don't think the gods are roughly equal to one another but I do think they're in the same realm of power, enough to hurt one another at any rate. I think Beerus is certainly top dog when it comes to all the GoD as he wasn't too phased by the all on one at the start of it. Belmod seemed to have been one of the better ones as well, but I'm going to go with the idea that he's a trickster character who's inferior to Beerus. So I think while Jiren is superior to Belmod, that he is perhaps inferior or level with Beerus, which is likely an unpopular opinion. I'm just going with the idea that Toriyama seems to want Beerus and Whis to be benchmarks for a long time to come.

The bench mark for beerus is long gone with beerus, as just like you, i also believe jiren is on the level of beerus (though sometimes i think jiren may be superior). Now the benchmark for whis is still there, and due to how massive the gap between beerus and whis is, it would probably take a UI Vegito like being to be able to possibly rival whis.

I pretty much agree. My only difference of opinion is that Beerus is still at a rather vague level, so if Toriyama suddenly decides that Beerus is still far greater than UI Goku and Jiren, don't be surprised. But honestly, there is enough evidence to conclude that Jiren is stronger than Beerus as well. It's just not 100% conclusive yet.

[supercat]

Finally some good power scaling that shows just how far behind Buu currently stands.

I'm not really sure why you feel the need to post this almost every time you post in this thread. There isn't even a consensus as to how strong Ultimate Gohan actually is, so it's not like this episode indisputably leads us into some foolproof conclusion regarding the strength of the U6 Namekians.

Ultimate Gohan was able to tangle with SSB Goku, while Buu, even after training, was barely a match for a suppressed Base Goku. So that to me is a pretty good implication of the following:

SSB Goku > / = Ultimate Gohan > Saonel = Pirina > Piccolo > / = SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Nothing contradicts it for the time being, while SSB Goku sparring with Ultimate Gohan, and that same Gohan barely holding up against Saonel and Pirina completely supports it.

Seriously, I don't remember anyone questioning 17/18 > SSJ Goku > Final Form Frieza back then, so not sure why Buu deserves all this hype. The amount of hype Buu gets at this point makes Broly's hype seem like humble modesty.

Even if we assume current Ultimate Gohan is on par with his Buu saga self, he had a much harder time dealing with Saonel and Pirina than he did with Super Buu, who he casually messed around.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Universe 6 Namekians were hiding their power for the most part, and together were more than a match for a fully serious and vastly improved Ultimate Gohan.

As well, the weight of all of Universe 2's love is quite high, enough that it takes Goku going SSB and firing off a Kamehameha to break this pseudo black hole.

[Marlowe89]

Seriously, I don't remember anyone questioning 17/18 > SSJ Goku > Final Form Frieza back then, so not sure why Buu deserves all this hype. The amount of hype Buu gets at this point makes Broly's hype seem like humble modesty.

What hype? I honestly have no clue what you're talking about. Debates like these typically tend to focus on whether or not Buu's strength is relevant, not whether he's some top tier fighter in Super -- I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother agrees that he isn't.

The points that you've brought up have been discussed countless times in this thread by myself and others, and the reason I specifically responded to your post was just to point out that there's really no need to beat a dead horse after every week. It's especially jarring on your part because Buu isn't even a part of the tournament, so we wouldn't really know for sure how well he would fare against all these fighters either way.

[Bullza]

I really don't know how strong Ultimate Gohan is meant to be. He'd be stronger than before but as strong as Super Saiyan Blue? I really don't know. After all it looked like Kale was a match for Super Saiyan Blue at one point and look how that turned out.

Who turns if Goku was severely holding back or not, same with Android 17.

Forgetting that though. Pirina looked like he wasn't far off from Ultimate Gohan's level. Saonel probably the same.

Piccolo? I have no idea, he seemed weaker normally but with the Special Beam Cannon he was able to overpower him. Pretty much the same circumstance when he fought Frost.

Goku broke out of a black hole which is a very impressive feat. Even Base Goku was able to get up unlike the Androids. I know in any Goku vs Superman debates people bring up the black hole thing in favour of Superman. Well I guess now Goku can do something similar.

The three from Universe 2 didn't seem too impressive, I'll need to double check.

[supercat]

Seriously, I don't remember anyone questioning 17/18 > SSJ Goku > Final Form Frieza back then, so not sure why Buu deserves all this hype. The amount of hype Buu gets at this point makes Broly's hype seem like humble modesty.

What hype? I honestly have no clue what you're talking about. Debates like these typically tend to focus on whether or not Buu is relevant, not whether he's some top tier fighter in Super -- I'm pretty sure everyone and their mother agrees that he isn't.

The points that you've brought up have been discussed countless times in this thread by myself and others, and the reason I specifically responded to your post was just to point out that there's really no need to beat a dead horse after every week. It's especially jarring on your part because Buu isn't even a part of the tournament, so we wouldn't really know for sure how well he would fare against all these fighters either way.

But we have a series of battles that strongly imply how Buu would fare against some of these fighters. Again, even if we assume current Ultimate Gohan is only on par with his Ultimate self from the Buu saga, Sanoel and Pirina would still at least be stronger than Super Buu by a good margin. Buu saga Ultimate Gohan treated Super Buu like some joke, while the same Ultimate Gohan that gave SSB Goku a good fight wasn't even able to gain a notable advantage against Saonel and Pirina.

And Buu is hyped... I still see people place the Base Saiyans and several others, namely Universe 6 Saiyans below Buu.

I also don't recall anyone countlessly discussing Sanoel and Pirina >>> Buu, so overall, it seems like a pretty fresh topic to me.