Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

I can't see Android 17 being intended to be on the same level as Toppo, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta or Golden Frieza. Not when his best so far in this Tournament is him matching the weak Ribrianne.

Because he probably isn't. Throughout this entire tournament he has been portrayed to be no higher than base Goku and in literally the last episode a tired SSB Goku broke out of the pretty black whole which 17 couldn't have.

#17 power is confusing,where can't we put him SSG or SSGSS ROF

Neither imo. He is around base to a bit above ssj Goku max for me until I see more feats from him.

We're seriously going in circles. I honestly do not see what is so difficult about simply accepting feats and statements for what they are, instead of constantly coming up with farfetched theories for the purpose of justifying a particular outcome or instance. I don't see why anyone would ever want to go through all that just to justify a story that they didn't even write.

Excpet it isn't far fetched theories, throughout the entire tournament 17 hasn't once been presented as SSB level. A tired SSB Goku was shown to be above him in just the last episode.

I just find it hilarious how anytime there is a feat that positively supports a particular character's powerlevel and/or improvements, people find whatever excuse they can to downplay it. But on that same note, any feat that even subtly downgrades the same character in discussion even a tad is looked at as some undeniable fact, despite a greater degree of ambiguity in said scenario.

Except 17 has had far more showings that show he is far below SSB level. You are desperately holding onto one fight with Goku who is never serious. 17 has fought multiple people in the ToP so far and has had some trouble, and none of his opponents were even close to SSB level. All of them were arguably below base Goku. I originally thought 17 may of been above final form Frieza, but at this point I doubt he is even that high.

Oh and I also find it funny how people have no problem assuming SSB Goku held back, but when it comes to 17 vs Ribrianne, 17 holding back isn't really a consideration.

Because Goku is known to hold back and we even have a statement form the guy who wrote the episode that says Goku held back?

I really feel you and I aren't going to agree on any of this, so is there even a purpose in resuming this discussion? I know with certainty that I won't change my perception on the matter. Especially given how easily I'm able to refute everything point by point.

I know this isn't directed to me, but I could easily do the same to your argument. You clearly don't understand how DBS powerscaling works in the slightest. It's doesn't work the same as Z. Everyone in DBS is pretty much on the same level when they need to be and there are no longer super one sided fights. There is no set power scale at this point at all. When 17 and 18 fight together they are close to the same strength. When Krillin and 18 fight together they are close to the same strength. At this point there is no scaling or power levels, just rough tiers of strength.

And you keep straw manning everyone that disagrees with you saying they are trying to fit people into their own power narrative when that isn't the case. People are just watching the show and coming to a different conclusion that you, it is as simple as that.

Now if 17 actually proves he is blue level in this tournament I will admit he is blue level, but don't blame others for not having him at that level when is constantly having problems with people below base Goku, not like that is a bad feat since base Goku is insanely strong now.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Super wrote itself in a corner, and now its a mess power scaling wise. Tho the big picture is there:

Only ones who r ssj blue tier r Golden Freeza/Toppo/Hit and Kefla, while Dyspo is ssg tier(thanks to his speed). And Jiren is far above blue level. Everyone else is where the writer feels like placing them at that given moment.

On top of that, the anime unitentionally raised the gap between blue and Beerus, by adding this kaioken stuff. While its cool looking. it makes zero sense story whise. Since it would make Beerus thousands if not tens of thousands of times stronger than ssg, considering Beerus is close if not at Jiren's level, and Jiren crapped on ssj blue kkx20+ GK. Atleast in the manga, he is within reason.

Imean, I'm not sure that beerus has a closer gap in the manga. Complete ssb is like the kaioken of the manga. Vegeta in that form got shitted on by beerus and beerus remarked that vegeta will need to train for a million years before becoming his rival (which makes sense, since jiren can effortlessly blink away something that is far stronger than ssb Kaioken x20 Goku alone). To me, it seems like God of Destruction level is unreachable trough training alone, or at least takes millions of years to reach.

How jiren was able to reach that level, and possibly surpass it is beyond anyones guess. I'm just going to use my head canon and say that jiren is far older than any god of destruction, potentially hundreds of millions of years old... Or he was the broly of his race and was born with power surpassing time itself.

[Bullza]

I honestly do not see what is so difficult about simply accepting feats and statements for what they are, instead of constantly coming up with farfetched theories for the purpose of justifying a particular outcome or instance.

Because it's not as straightforward as that. With Android 17 it was stated that while he was holding back he was a match for Super Saiyan Blue Goku who was holding back. Without knowing how much he was actually holding back then we don't know for sure if he's really that level.

We had the feat of Kale walking through the Super Saiyan Blue Goku's​ Kamehameha and people jumped the gun there by thinking she was at that level. Now we now differently. The same can be true with Android 17 as well.

And to answer your question, I wouldn't have any problem with Yamcha reaching SSB-tier, as long as there was some form of training or some vague explanation or feat supporting it.

Well you might not but most people would. It hurts the story when they do things like that. It undermines everything the characters did and the the worthiness of it at all when they just make Android 17 randomly that strong from just watching over some animals.

I'm not sure if you read my post, but Tien was soloing both Jeice and Burter, even after using multiform.

He was more just fighting on par than soloing them casually. He overpowered the purple hurricane technique to win.

Goku was on the planet a lot longer but it took him a whole 40 days to reach the level where he could catch Bubbles, something the group did quickly. That already takes his time down from 6 months to less than 5 months.

And that was just filler. Usually it's poorly written, Mr Popo fought two Super Saiyan's at one point.

So yeah they got stronger at a quicker rate than what Goku did but they didn't suddenly get as strong as Super Saiyan Goku. They were still insignificant anyway so it didn't matter. Here we have two characters who for some reason are as strong as the main character from doing next to nothing in comparison to earn it.

Before Goku became a God, Vegeta, Goten, Gohan and Trunks all poured their power into him. The combined power not being as strong as Super Saiyan God. Somehow Android 17's power alone from being a park ranger far exceeds the five Saiyans stacked together who would have spent far more training.

Are you seriously comparing Frieza to Android 17?

Yes. Do you think the intention from the writers here is that Android 17 is on the same level of strength as Golden Frieza?

You can keep going on about where you feel 17 should stand, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he still has a scene where he fights on par with SSB Goku.

While Super Saiyan Blue Goku was holding back an unknown amount of power.

This is someone who has matched both Krillin and Super Saiyan Kefla. He's used it against Nink and Jiren. He knocked out Golden Frieza with a single punch but didn't knock out Ultimate Gohan with two punches. He fired a Kamehameha that defeated Hit and destroyed a black hole and then fired another Kamehameha that couldn't even break Android 17's barrier.

He's all over the place.

Oh and I also find it funny how people have no problem assuming SSB Goku held back, but when it comes to 17 vs Ribrianne, 17 holding back isn't really a consideration.

But it was said that Super Saiyan Blue Goku was holding back against Android 17, that's not an assumption. They never said that when it came to Android 17 fighting Ribrianne though.

I do think he was holding back against Ribrianne though just because we know for a fact he's above Super Saiyan Goku and Ribrianne is below Base Goku.

[supercat]

I can't see Android 17 being intended to be on the same level as Toppo, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta or Golden Frieza. Not when his best so far in this Tournament is him matching the weak Ribrianne.

Because he probably isn't. Throughout this entire tournament he has been portrayed to be no higher than base Goku and in literally the last episode a tired SSB Goku broke out of the pretty black whole which 17 couldn't have.

#17 power is confusing,where can't we put him SSG or SSGSS ROF

Neither imo. He is around base to a bit above ssj Goku max for me until I see more feats from him.

We're seriously going in circles. I honestly do not see what is so difficult about simply accepting feats and statements for what they are, instead of constantly coming up with farfetched theories for the purpose of justifying a particular outcome or instance. I don't see why anyone would ever want to go through all that just to justify a story that they didn't even write.

Excpet it isn't far fetched theories, throughout the entire tournament 17 hasn't once been presented as SSB level. A tired SSB Goku was shown to be above him in just the last episode.

I just find it hilarious how anytime there is a feat that positively supports a particular character's powerlevel and/or improvements, people find whatever excuse they can to downplay it. But on that same note, any feat that even subtly downgrades the same character in discussion even a tad is looked at as some undeniable fact, despite a greater degree of ambiguity in said scenario.

Except 17 has had far more showings that show he is far below SSB level. You are desperately holding onto one fight with Goku who is never serious. 17 has fought multiple people in the ToP so far and has had some trouble, and none of his opponents were even close to SSB level. All of them were arguably below base Goku. I originally thought 17 may of been above final form Frieza, but at this point I doubt he is even that high.

Oh and I also find it funny how people have no problem assuming SSB Goku held back, but when it comes to 17 vs Ribrianne, 17 holding back isn't really a consideration.

Because Goku is known to hold back and we even have a statement form the guy who wrote the episode that says Goku held back?

I really feel you and I aren't going to agree on any of this, so is there even a purpose in resuming this discussion? I know with certainty that I won't change my perception on the matter. Especially given how easily I'm able to refute everything point by point.

I know this isn't directed to me, but I could easily do the same to your argument. You clearly don't understand how DBS powerscaling works in the slightest. It's doesn't work the same as Z. Everyone in DBS is pretty much on the same level when they need to be and there are no longer super one sided fights. There is no set power scale at this point at all. When 17 and 18 fight together they are close to the same strength. When Krillin and 18 fight together they are close to the same strength. At this point there is no scaling or power levels, just rough tiers of strength.

And you keep straw manning everyone that disagrees with you saying they are trying to fit people into their own power narrative when that isn't the case. People are just watching the show and coming to a different conclusion that you, it is as simple as that.

Now if 17 actually proves he is blue level in this tournament I will admit he is blue level, but don't blame others for not having him at that level when is constantly having problems with people below base Goku, not like that is a bad feat since base Goku is insanely strong now.

Yeah, I'm done debating with you. FYI, no matter what you say, or what points you bring up, I will never agree with any of the made up theories and speculations you seem to enjoy throwing my way.

I use actual statements and feats in my debates. I don't just cherrypick some ambiguous scene and try to make it fit into a farfetched (yes farfetched, very farfetched for that matter) speculation that holds little to no credibility other than the fact that it seems more logical. What's logic in a show where characters fly and power up and gain new abilities at some unspecified rate?

I don't get why you continue to respond to my posts. I'll never adhere to any of your points, and quite frankly, I stopped reading them a long time ago. And no, I don't think you could rebut against any of my points. I never once felt that you were able to change my perception, not even a bit. And not that it matters at this point, but you saying Krillin and 18 are similar in power, especially after what 18 did to Ribrianne is one of many reasons why I am opting out of this debate.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah, I'm done debating with you. FYI, no matter what you say, or what points you bring up, I will never agree with any of the made up theories and speculations you seem to enjoy throwing my way.
I use actual statements and feats in my debates.

I don't get why you continue to respond to my posts. I'll never adhere to any of your points, and quite frankly, I stopped reading them a long time ago.

I'm not even debating how strong 17 is and you would realize that if you actually read what I posted. I'm only responding to you because of your condescending attitude towards people with a different opinion. I even acknowledged before how your opinion could be correct, but it also possibly might not be, so you shouldn't be talking down to others. Dragon ball Super's power scaling is a mess and there is no set power level for anyone. All you are proving is that you are a close minded individual who thinks he is smarter than others.

And not that it matters at this point, but you saying Krillin and 18 are similar in power, especially after what 18 did to Ribrianne is one of many reasons why I am opting out of this debate.

I never said that, wtf. Krillin is still weaker than namek saga Frieza. You just proved how you are strawmanning me and don't know how to properly debate.

[supercat]

I know this isn't directed to me, but I could easily do the same to your argument. You clearly don't understand how DBS powerscaling works in the slightest. It's doesn't work the same as Z. Everyone in DBS is pretty much on the same level when they need to be and there are no longer super one sided fights. There is no set power scale at this point at all. When 17 and 18 fight together they are close to the same strength. When Krillin and 18 fight together they are close to the same strength. At this point there is no scaling or power levels, just rough tiers of strength.

And you keep straw manning everyone that disagrees with you saying they are trying to fit people into their own power narrative when that isn't the case. People are just watching the show and coming to a different conclusion that you, it is as simple as that.

Now if 17 actually proves he is blue level in this tournament I will admit he is blue level, but don't blame others for not having him at that level when is constantly having problems with people below base Goku, not like that is a bad feat since base Goku is insanely strong now.

Yeah uh huh. So next I'm guessing you'll say Hercule and Goku are on par with one another if they take out a few city baddies together side by side?

That's some real awesome debating from someone who doesn't even appear to know the definition of a straw man fallacy.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah uh huh. So next I'm guessing you'll say Hercule and Goku are on par with one another if they take out a few city baddies together side by side?

I said there was a rough tier gauge (I could go more into it if you want). And 17 was clearly struggling so that argument doesn't apply here. Ironic how you mention straw man fallacy below and you pretty much make another one right here.

That's some real awesome debating from someone who doesn't even appear to know the definition of a straw man fallacy.

A straw man fallacy is when you change someones argument to make it easier to defeat (blow down hence the straw man).

You did this by saying I said Krillin and 18 were the same strength, however that isn't what I said, you changed my argument to make it easier to defeat. A clear straw man argument.

So it seems you are the one who doesn't know what a strawman argument is. Either that or you didn't comprehend my original argument and didn't realize you were strawmanning me.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Can yall just agree to disagree?

[dragon boss z]

Can yall just agree to disagree?

The problem here isn't agreeing on the power levels. Basically what I'm arguing is everyone has there own opinion and that Super isn't clear enough to say the power of certain characters for sure, and his argument is "no my opinion is clearly the right one and the other opinion is laughable".

So at this point it's me arguing the FACT that super isn't clear on everything and we should respect everyone's opinion, and him arguing the FALSEHOOD that his opinion is clearly the right one and the other opinions are other's deluded fan fictions.

So I will agree to disagree on his opinion of a character's strength, but I won't let him talk down to people with different opinions. If he says "I think 17 is Blue level" I won't respond and respect his opinion because we have debated this before. If he says "People who think 17 isn't Blue level are crazy/delusional/ect." I will respond. It is as simple as that.

[HeroR]

Trading blows with Goku and not showing badly damage is not what I would call much better. Kafla yes, I would admit it. But that’s not really the point here. They would be finished if they didn’t merge together, despite the manner Goku used the kamehameha.

I don’t know the answer to that, but Goku is not saying 17 is stronger than the other forms. That’s like putting words in his mouth. Perhaps he felt 17 deserved a little respect.

Yes it is since Cali was on the ground after one hit, while Kale scuffled evenly with Goku not once or twice. She was also still able to fight while Cali couldn't even stand up and when Goku tried to ring them out, Kale was still fresh and he destroyed the ground under her. So Goku beating Kale has nothing to do with power in this context.

Yes he is since why would he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when he said he had no intention to, say that 17 was fearsome and was happy that he wasn't an enemy, and note that 17 was also holding back while evenly trading hands with him and even stopped his Kamehameha with a barrier, if it was all for '17 is only above Super Saiyan'. You say I'm putting words in Goku's mouth after he made it very clear that 17 is within the power range of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Can yall just agree to disagree?

The problem here isn't agreeing on the power levels. Basically what I'm arguing is everyone has there own opinion and that Super isn't clear enough to say the power of certain characters for sure, and his argument is "no my opinion is clearly the right one and the other opinion is laughable".

So at this point it's me arguing the FACT that super isn't clear on everything and we should respect everyone's opinion, and him arguing the FALSEHOOD that his opinion is clearly the right one and the other opinions are other's deluded fan fictions.

So I will agree to disagree on his opinion of a character's strength, but I won't let him talk down to people with different opinions. If he says "I think 17 is Blue level" I won't respond and respect his opinion because we have debated this before. If he says "People who think 17 isn't Blue level are crazy/delusional/ect." I will respond. It is as simple as that.

I know. Super is fucked up in power scaling and things arent clear sometimes. thats why we should agree to disagree, that way we can move on.

Lets all not bash each others opinion.

[dragon boss z]

I know. Super is fucked up in power scaling and things arent clear sometimes. thats why we should agree to disagree, that way we can move on.

Lets all not bash each others opinion.

Exactly that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying him saying 17 being Blue level is wrong. I'm pointing out why he shouldn't bash the opinion that 17 isn't Blue level. I personally don't have a solid opinion where to put 17 yet. I'm waiting until the ToP is over.

I've just seen him on multiple threads on this site just talking down about other people's opinions, and when I see that I will point it out.

[Bullza]

Yes he is since why would he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when he said he had no intention to, say that 17 was fearsome and was happy that he wasn't an enemy, and note that 17 was also holding back while evenly trading hands with him and even stopped his Kamehameha with a barrier, if it was all for '17 is only above Super Saiyan'.

Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue for damn near everybody now, he went Super Saiyan Blue for scrubs like Nink and the Trio De Dangers. He even went Super Saiyan Blue against Ribrianne, a weaker version of the Ribrianne that Android 18 beat.

Does he really need to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue to be considered fearsome? Wasn't Final Form Frieza or Bergamo or Base Black fearsome?

He stopped his Kamehameha with a barrier but the same Goku used the same technique that completely destroyed Hits Time Dimension and beat him. He overpowered Merged Zamasu. He destroyed the Black Hole.

Base Goku, Android 17 and Android 18 where on their knees in that Black Hole from the immense gravity. Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue and he stood up and blasted his way out of there all the while Android 17 being stuck to the floor.

[HeroR]

Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue for damn near everybody now, he went Super Saiyan Blue for scrubs like Nink and the Trio De Dangers. He even went Super Saiyan Blue against Ribrianne, a weaker version of the Ribrianne that Android 18 beat.

Does he really need to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue to be considered fearsome? Wasn't Final Form Frieza or Bergamo or Base Black fearsome?

He stopped his Kamehameha with a barrier but the same Goku used the same technique that completely destroyed Hits Time Dimension and beat him. He overpowered Merged Zamasu. He destroyed the Black Hole.

Base Goku, Android 17 and Android 18 where on their knees in that Black Hole from the immense gravity. Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue and he stood up and blasted his way out of there all the while Android 17 being stuck to the floor.

Accept in 17's case, Goku acknowledged that he didn't want to go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and that 17 was a fearsome foe. With the Trio De Dangers, we know that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan wasn't needed since Goku beat them up with just Super Saiyan, something he never did against 17, and Nick was a spur of a moment transformation. He also went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Super Ribrianne, who 18 didn't fight. Before you mentioned 18 bursted giant Ribrianne, 18 was empowered by 'love' when she did it which is implied to have made her stronger. Goku also used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in a quick burst against Super Ribrianne. And again, we saw Goku beat back Ribrianne in his weaker forms, but that isn't the case with 17.

Goku never called Bergamo fearsome. He called his battle with Bergamo lackluster and Vegeta called Black a none issue when he learned he was only as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. So yes, for Goku and Vegeta you're not fearsome if you're only up to par with their golden Super Saiyan forms. Goku also never called final form Freeza fearsome. More than anything, he was surprised that Freeza got so strong. However, in the movie he mocked Freeza for his performance, using the dub line, 'Really? Is that it?'. In the retelling, Goku spent more time talking about how much he hated Freeza than about his power.

And your point? Even if we say those Kamehameha were weaker than the ones you named, 17 still casually stopped a Kamehameha from a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, unless you think he held back so much that it was only on the level of one of his golden forms. If that was the case, why bother? And 17 then went on to trade blows with Goku without losing any ground and he had to stop the fight before it destroyed the island. And to top it off, we don't know how much weaker or stronger that Kamehameha was against 17 compared the others you named. We can only look at sized and intent. In this case, the only truly powerful Kamehameha on this list would be what Goku used against Merged Zamasu since he was actually trying to kill him and Goku broke his arms.

In short, you can't compare 17 to the people you named Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan because: 17 was holding back too while the people you named weren't, they were fighting at their best. Goku said he had no intention of using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, yet felt the need to used it over all his other Super Saiyan forms, nothing bothering with Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan God. Goku called 17 fearsome and was happy he wasn't an enemy, something Goku never did with the others you named that he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for.

In conclusion, the narration and what we have been shown is telling us that 17 is within he power range of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Just like the narration went out of its way to tell us that Goku going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Krillin was utterly overkill and he did it to test him. In this case, you should just take the story at face value instead of trying to find ways to explain why Goku used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against 17 because 'he shouldn't be that strong'.

As for that Black Hole feat, that really doesn't prove or show that 17 as weaker than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Only that Goku stood up and fired before 17 did. Unless you're also going to say that 17 is weaker than base form Goku since Goku stood up in base form before he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[dragon boss z]

Yes he is since why would he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when he said he had no intention to, say that 17 was fearsome and was happy that he wasn't an enemy, and note that 17 was also holding back while evenly trading hands with him and even stopped his Kamehameha with a barrier, if it was all for '17 is only above Super Saiyan'.

Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue for damn near everybody now, he went Super Saiyan Blue for scrubs like Nink and the Trio De Dangers. He even went Super Saiyan Blue against Ribrianne, a weaker version of the Ribrianne that Android 18 beat.

Does he really need to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue to be considered fearsome? Wasn't Final Form Frieza or Bergamo or Base Black fearsome?

He stopped his Kamehameha with a barrier but the same Goku used the same technique that completely destroyed Hits Time Dimension and beat him. He overpowered Merged Zamasu. He destroyed the Black Hole.

Base Goku, Android 17 and Android 18 where on their knees in that Black Hole from the immense gravity. Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue and he stood up and blasted his way out of there all the while Android 17 being stuck to the floor.

[namekiansaiyan]

Kale, Saonel, Pirina, Gohan and 17 are probably around the same level but below SSB Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Trading blows with Goku and not showing badly damage is not what I would call much better. Kafla yes, I would admit it. But that’s not really the point here. They would be finished if they didn’t merge together, despite the manner Goku used the kamehameha.

I don’t know the answer to that, but Goku is not saying 17 is stronger than the other forms. That’s like putting words in his mouth. Perhaps he felt 17 deserved a little respect.

Yes it is since Cali was on the ground after one hit, while Kale scuffled evenly with Goku not once or twice. She was also still able to fight while Cali couldn't even stand up and when Goku tried to ring them out, Kale was still fresh and he destroyed the ground under her. So Goku beating Kale has nothing to do with power in this context.

Yes he is since why would he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when he said he had no intention to, say that 17 was fearsome and was happy that he wasn't an enemy, and note that 17 was also holding back while evenly trading hands with him and even stopped his Kamehameha with a barrier, if it was all for '17 is only above Super Saiyan'. You say I'm putting words in Goku's mouth after he made it very clear that 17 is within the power range of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

That’s mine and your opinion on the matter though, for both situations. We don’t have to agree. I’m just not sure if I said Kale was overpowered, but she isn’t stronger than SSG.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

imo:
Kale

SSG Goku / Saonel / Pirina (on the assumption that two SSG level fighters can give a SSB tier fighter a challenge)

SSB Goku / Gohan*(clear showing against SSB, Goku had to go SSBKK to finish him off, but lacks showings in TOP against top tiers) / 17 (dragged out fight vs Goku, same as before)

SSBKK Goku (had to use this to forcibly put down Gohan as well as other threats above SSB level. Best used : without any energy )

Ultra Instinct Goku

--------------------------------------------
[spoiler]Gohan Blanco - he beats the evil GP with the power of the Angels [/spoiler]

[Kenneth La Torre]

I dont know who it was, but someone here brough up that jiren only has raw power going for him, and not skill...? Jiren, who doesnt have ultra instinct, was able to go toe to toe with UI Goku, who was nearing jirens supressed level. Jiren is definitely nearly peerless in power and combat capabilities. Theres nothing suggesting his fighting skills are below that of gokus.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

17 isn't weaker than base Goku. He beat ssj Goku with no effort so I don't know how people are coming to that conclusion. He forced Goku to use Ssb with the latter stating that he had no intention of using the form. So if Goku was forced to use his strongest form despite having no intention to, that means that 17 is at the level to warrant Ssb. Then there's goku stating that 17 would be a terrifying foe if he was still evil due to his strength.

Not sure how someone weaker than base Goku would beat ssj Goku with ease then force Goku to use his strongest transformation.