Opinions on Dragon Ball Minus

[Meshack]

Why is Dragon Ball - mostly hated in this community. Is it because Barduck isn’t the same way as he is in the TV special (even though we don’t get much of Barduck in this chapter)? I find it really enjoyable and after reading the recent interview with Toriyama about the Saiyans and knowing stuff from the TV special, it made me appreciate this chapter even more. Why do you hate or like this chapter?

[Dbzfan94]

I sat here for a good thirty seconds thinking why you would use a - like that without continuing your statement.

Then I realized it was Minus

Anyway, I don't like it because it takes away from Goku's backstory of being sent to destroy it but ended up saving it, to being sent away for his protection.

[Meshack]

I sat here for a good thirty seconds thinking why you would use a - like that without continuing your statement.

Then I realized it was Minus

Anyway, I don't like it because it takes away from Goku's backstory of being sent to destroy it but ended up saving it, to being sent away for his protection.

I mean, children being sent away is done by the “government” I guess, but Barduck wanted to send Kacarrot away for him to survive but Gine calls him the flying child term, asking why Barduck wanted Kacarrot to be a flying child. Flying child ("infiltration baby" by Viz) is a term used when the babies are sent off to take over a planet and later return to Planet Vegeta. Kacarrot was sent to earth for a couple a reasons: to save his life from Freeza and for him to take over another planet because that’s what the children did if they didn’t have a high enough battle power. I don’t think it takes away from what was originally intended since Kacarrot was referred to as a flying child.

[Black Hawk]

I personally really like it for giving us something different and unexpected. After having nothing but the Bardock special to tell us anything about Gokū's origins and earliest days on Earth, I felt it was a welcome surprise to find out that Saiyajin infants are incubated at least somewhat artificially and that infiltration babies are shipped out to planets in full armor garb around the age of three rather than in infancy and nudity the way the Bardock special portrayed. It was different and, in my opinion, a welcome addition. Plus, it was great to see Bardock's and Gine's interactions as well as the brief appearance and explanation of how Vegeta and Raditz evading the planet's destruction. The only thing missing, really, was Nappa; it otherwise felt complete to me.

The little nod to Freeza overhearing conversations via his henchmens' and the Saiyajin's scouters, which nobody ever seems to bring up, as a throwback to how Freeza learned about the Dragon Balls, was a nice touch as well.

[Meshack]

I personally really like it for giving us something different and unexpected. After having nothing but the Bardock special to tell us anything about Gokū's origins and earliest days on Earth, I felt it was a welcome surprise to find out that Saiyajin infants are incubated at least somewhat artificially and that infiltration babies are shipped out to planets in full armor garb around the age of three rather than in infancy and nudity the way the Bardock special portrayed. It was different and, in my opinion, a welcome addition. Plus, it was great to see Bardock's and Gine's interactions as well as the brief appearance and explanation of how Vegeta and Raditz evading the planet's destruction. The only thing missing, really, was Nappa; it otherwise felt complete to me.

The little nod to Freeza overhearing conversations via his henchmens' and the Saiyajin's scouters, which nobody ever seems to bring up, as a throwback to how Freeza learned about the Dragon Balls, was a nice touch as well.

This is how I feel about it and how everything falls together. The only thing I hate about the chapter is that it’s short.

[Gaffer Tape]

I hate Dragon Ball Minus. Without exaggeration, I think it is the absolute worst thing to ever carry the Dragon Ball name. And, yes, I freely include Dragonball Evolution in that comparison.

I think my best explanation of why can be found in the episode covering it in my Dragon Ball Dissection series: Dragon Ball Dissection: Dragon Ball Minus

But if you don't feel like watching a whole video on the subject, then here are my initial thoughts back in 2014. Nothing has really changed since then.

I feel like I'm really behind on the bandwagon here, but I just read DB- for the first time. And color me disgusted.

You know what? I don't care. I *really* don't care that it contradicts the TV special. I never cared. In fact, I expected it, especially after that shot of toddler Goku in Jaco appeared. I was almost looking forward to it. I never assumed that just because Toriyama put Bardock in a couple of panels in the manga that that undeniably meant the entirety of the special was canon to the manga continuity. So Toriyama wanted to do his own take? I admit I was hesitant about the idea of adding Goku's mother in, and I think I was pretty vocal about that when it was first announced, but I was trying to reserve judgment until I actually saw where it was going.

But when I get right down to it, ignoring the TV special entirely, I find that this is just a *terrible* story. There is just no way something this short can get across the ideas and feelings it hints at, so the whole thing just careens along at a breakneck pace that's almost nothing but clunky exposition and unexplained motives and characterizations. I was worried that Gine was going to be some perfect, wonderful fanfic-esque character, but, honestly, if I hadn't already read the Toriyama interview about her, I'd barely have any idea who she was. Hell, I still barely know who she was. I barely know who Bardock is!

Maybe it's just my prior knowledge of the series, but I can't exactly commend Bardock for "solving the big mystery." I mean, really? Freeza has been asking around about the Super Saiyan, the legendary warrior said to be stronger than all else (even Freeza), and he suddenly and unexpectedly calls all the Saiyans back to the same location? Um... trap, much? But, again, it's dealt with so quickly and vaguely that I'm not sure if all the other Saiyans look like complete idiots for not putting two and two together, or that Bardock looks like a paranoid conspiracy theorist for being so sure about it with so little information.

Then there's the fact that this origin story is just such a copy of Superman. I mean, the parallels have always been tossed around. But this...? I half expected Bardock to put his hand on the space pod and say, "They can be a great people, Kal-El-Karrot. They wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way." So completely gone is the idea that Goku was sent to earth to destroy it by his barbaric race but through a twist of fortune ended up becoming good. Instead, he was sent there by his loving parents to keep him safe.

It's exactly what I feared. It makes Goku too "special." Or, specifically, it makes his origin too special. His parents were aberrations who loved each other and showed affection to their children. They're the only ones who figured out what Freeza was up to and took the steps that ultimately led to Freeza's defeat. It's just too pat. I hate to make the comparison, especially in light of everyone balking that it "retcons" the TV special (which it doesn't... the TV special would have had to have been explicitly in the manga's continuity to begin with in order to be retconned), but the TV special walked that tightrope perfectly. It gave Bardock just enough pathos and uniqueness that you could sympathize with him as the protagonist, but it didn't make him out to be anything more than just an evil thug. It played with the idea of him trying to do something to make a difference to his fate and his son's fate, but he ultimately failed, which makes Freeza's memories of him tragically humorous: he was just that guy who got in the way at the last second, and nothing special about him was even remembered or known.

Ultimately, it's fan-service, plain and simple. There's no story here. It's just a bunch of, "Ooh, look, it's Goku's parents." "Ooh, look, it's Vegeta and Raditz as kids." "Ooh, look at all the shiny new backstory." What a waste. I'd rather it not have been written, which is a shame because what I've read of Jaco I've enjoyed immensely. But between this and the abysmal Episode of Bardock, I'd say it's clear they need to put this character on a shelf and never, ever use him again.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It's fluff plain and simple too short to be anything and I don't care enough to really have an opinion on it. Goku's green armour is cool I guess.

[KBABZ]

I haven't read it, but I at least appreciate it for giving us Gine and a different perspective on Saiyan life (I'd say that Goku's more gentle nature comes from her). I wish we knew more about her!

[Grimlock]

Dragon Ball Minus is utterly terrible because it's too short, it doesn't delve into the past Goku's in a cool way. It's just very rushed without adding anything interesting to the franchise (except for Gine).

If it doesn't tell us about Goku's past, then tell us about Saiyans in more details, build better their backstory, tell us how things were, show us some slice of life "Saiyanish", instead of adding information about Saiyans through interviews over and over, use the manga to do so... But we didn't get any of that. We don't get to see Nappa and, most importantly, King Vegeta. Raditz's first appearance as a kid is but one panel. We don't get to see Bardock's rebellion against Freeza, we're still stuck in that one panel in chapter 307. We don't get to see nothing and it doesn't tell us nothing, it's just a too short piece of crap that exists for the sole reason of... Wait, there's no reason for it to exist at all. Dragon Ball Minus and Movie 15 should get along and go to dumping ground together because that's where they belong.


Personally: it also changed Bardock's outfit, I couldn't care less about his armor, but I don't like to see him wearing boots without the red shinguard/shell anklets,

[TheGreatness25]

I hated it because I cannot stand the story changing after being established for so long. If it's something that changes insignificant things, I can buy that. If it adds to something, that's fine (like Goku being an alien added to the series instead of changing it). But to take a story that I've known for two decades and in a throw-away, short manga change it all? That just irritated me. I have the Bardock special single DVD, steelbook DVD, Blu-ray, and as part of the Dragon Box. I've known this story for just a little bit less than the rest of it. And then one day, just because the wind blew a different direction, Bardock's entire character was changed and essentially, the entire special means nothing. That's it, it's not part of the story anymore. After all, Akira Toriyama canonized Minus, didn't he? Thus, the story that I've known, the character that I've known, all of that fun and wonderful stuff is gone. Poof. Like it never existed.

However, that's my problem: I invested too much of myself into the story. If there's anything that the last couple of years has taught me, it's that the only things about the series that piss me off, are things that I don't want to see changed. I don't want to see my beloved tale become something different than it was. But, that's my problem because it's going to; it already has! I cannot watch or read Dragon Ball the way that I used to because it is a whole different animal now. And for the first time in my fandom -- despite how logical it is -- it stopped being this magical thing that brings joy to me, and became the product of somebody's job to create profit. And now, I'm pretty open to anything. I have taken my emotional stakes out of the story and all of the changes and specials and Super stuff, all of that became a lot more enjoyable. I mean, I really don't care about it, which is why it doesn't piss me off anymore.

The first time I read MInus, I read it as an angry fan who didn't want the series to change. I should really read it again as the new version of me who looks at it as just another property meant to entertain me. Does it entertain me? Eh, so-so. But it has my attention due to my old nostalgic feelings, whereas I wouldn't even pay attention to it if it were something else. So, I don't hate Minus, I don't love Minus, I don't care about Minus. It's not meant for me, I am not the target audience, and now I understand that. It's ironic that most stories thrive on the audience having a deep, emotional connection with it; Dragon Ball is becoming just the opposite to me, and that's why I enjoy it. It's weird, but it's true. It's the same as comic book based movies -- the less I put my emotions into them, the more I enjoy them. I'm a little sad that Dragon Ball had to become that way for me, but it is what it is. Can't stop the avalanche from wiping you out; all you can do is prepare yourself to deal with it.

[LightBing]

I like it for a few reasons:

• Solving the head-scratcher that was only 4 Saiyans surviving besides always representing Freeza suddenly showing up to exterminate Planet Vegeta.
• Bardock's character. For so little there's quite a lot in there: he's intelligent and cautions, still barbaric but having an uncharacteristic care for his family due to his wife influence. I much prefer this representation than the one from the special, where he's special just because he's the protagonist.
• Giving some nuance to the Saiyan race. Presenting an entire race as just one thing(evil in this case) is boring and unrealistic. Gine is presented as odd for a Saiyan.
• Feels more rewarding knowing Goku survived due to his father actions than luck. Otherwise Goku's backstory would be luck overkill. This way there's some influence from characters in the story.

I sympathise with some of the complaints. This little manga isn't a real story, it's as if a interview of Mr.Toriyama was drawn.
The change to Goku's backstory is harsh to those who were heavenly invested in it. Personally I don't mind it. Goku not being an official rocket baby makes me happy since it never really made sense. Goku's is one of if not the biggest prodigy in Saiyan history and it's not because of hard-work.

[Black Hawk]

This is how I feel about it and how everything falls together. The only thing I hate about the chapter is that it’s short.

Agreed. I wish it had been more of its own short series as opposed to a bonus chapter. I'd have love to have seen more of what went on with the likes of Bardock, Gine, Raditz, Vegeta, and Nappa. Perhaps even King Vegeta could have had a role. Missed opportunities...

[KBABZ]

Yeah, from the sounds of things DB-'s biggest problem is how darn short it is, as opposed to what's actually in it.

[Ariesx222]

I didn't hate it but I prefer "Bardock, The father of Goku" being the best prequel story for the series.

Another thing I wish for is that we get more information on Freeza's family and race. I'm sick of hearing about Saiyans.

[Meshack]

I didn't hate it but I prefer "Bardock, The father of Goku" being the best prequel story for the series.

Another thing I wish for is that we get more information on Freeza's family and race. I'm sick of hearing about Saiyans.

I want to know more about Freeza and his race but Gokuh is a Saiyan and we kinda have to know more about them. I mean, in the original manga, we don’t know much but DB- adds a little more. We get most of our information from the Saiyans in interviews but not in the series itself.

[sintzu]

I don't like it because like multiple things in modern DB, it changes established things for no reason. Goku was sent to earth to destroy it but now it was to protect him, making him even closer to Superman. Bardock was depicted as a cold blooded Saiyan but now he's really a nice guy. Freeza went from just knowing about Ssj to now that and SsjG. Goku went from being good by pure coincidence to seemingly because of his good hearted mother. Goku's mother who we waited so long to know anything about turned out to be just a bland and boring character.

Would it be so hard to just leave things alone and instead focus on new content ? If they're not reusing old concepts they're ruining previously known facts.

[Meshack]

I don't like it because like multiple things in modern DB, it changes established things for no reason. Goku was sent to earth to destroy it but now it was to protect him, making him even closer to Superman. Bardock was depicted as a cold blooded Saiyan but now he's really a nice guy. Freeza went from just knowing about Ssj to now that and SsjG. Goku went from being good by pure coincidence to seemingly because of his good hearted mother. Goku's mother who we waited so long to know anything about turned out to be just a bland and boring character.

Would it be so hard to just leave things alone and instead focus on new content ? If they're not reusing old concepts they're ruining previously known facts.

I mean, Gine referred to Kacarrot as a flying child and we know flying children are sent out to conquer a planet. However, Gine didn’t know Barduck’s intentions but he didn’t turn down to notion that he was sending Kacarrot away as a flying child, saying "It’s for Kacarrot’s safety...”

[Meshack]

Dragon Ball Minus is utterly terrible because it's too short, it doesn't delve into the past Goku's in a cool way. It's just very rushed without adding anything interesting to the franchise (except for Gine).

If it doesn't tell us about Goku's past, then tell us about Saiyans in more details, build better their backstory, tell us how things were, show us some slice of life "Saiyanish", instead of adding information about Saiyans through interviews over and over, use the manga to do so... But we didn't get any of that. We don't get to see Nappa and, most importantly, King Vegeta. Raditz's first appearance as a kid is but one panel. We don't get to see Bardock's rebellion against Freeza, we're still stuck in that one panel in chapter 307. We don't get to see nothing and it doesn't tell us nothing, it's just a too short piece of crap that exists for the sole reason of... Wait, there's no reason for it to exist at all. Dragon Ball Minus and Movie 15 should get along and go to dumping ground together because that's where they belong.


Personally: it also changed Bardock's outfit, I couldn't care less about his armor, but I don't like to see him wearing boots without the red shinguard/shell anklets,

Yeah, I agree with some of this stuff. We just needed more than what we got.

[Deathbringer]

I know this might derail things but Meshack, I know you made a whole thread about why you only use English names from Japanese merchandise, but where on earth are you getting "Barduck" from? You know Episode of Bardock was written In English with "Bardock" in the logo right? Why not use that?

Anyway Dragon Ball Minus does a lot of damage for something that's shorter than a leaflet but I don't have extreme hate for it, it's mainly just a misguided attempt from Toriyama to do some fanservice, which is where a lot of the mistakes in modern Dragon Ball have come from actually...

I understand that people hate it more because it's canon (under most people's definition)

[Meshack]

I know this might derail things but Meshack, I know you made a whole thread about why you only use English names from Japanese merchandise, but where on earth are you getting "Barduck" from? You know Episode of Bardock was written In English with "Bardock" in the logo right? Why not use that?

Anyway Dragon Ball Minus does a lot of damage for something that's shorter than a leaflet but I don't have extreme hate for it, it's mainly just a misguided attempt from Toriyama to do some fanservice, which is where a lot of the mistakes in modern Dragon Ball have come from actually...

I understand that people hate it more because it's canon (under most people's definition)

Barduck comes from the official Bandai/Toei spelling his Baadakku which is Barduck. Just search “Barduck Dragon Ball” and you will find official merch with Barduck. “Episode of Bardock” and even “Bardock After” by Younjijii use “Bardock” most likely because of using the English localization spellings. They tend to do that. Some Japanese fans use Uub instead of Oob even though Oob is used officially and consistently used.

Modern mistakes come from Toriyama? I belive and is kinda backed up that Toriyama is not responsible for some of the mistakes in Dragon Ball.