Roshi's antics

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Locked
User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 am

Olympian wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Who is this affecting? You keep claiming it's bad and expect it to believe it's bad... because? You have yet to give reasons as to why Roshi's actions are an issue at all.
I don`t know, female viewers who likely at some point in their lifes have suffered or were about to suffer the same type of antics. There is no double standard in this context to me. Murder, genocide, beating up children who aren`t Chucky is all wrong but thanks to literal devices like in this case, the Dragon Balls, fiction is allowed to exageratte (ala explosions in action movies) because said literal device brings people back from the dead. It`s the Ex Machina at work. It`s magic, poof! Everyone back with a single wish.

Is there any actual device to stop a Roshi antic being humilliating other than killing him? Well, no. Female characters have to suffer it. Don`t get me wrong, I would gladly turn the gag around with Roshi trying to harass and rape and getting perpetually offed by his victims only to be brought back but I`m not sure how better it would be because the joke would dry after the first attempt.
The problem with the whole "a victim might see it" thing is that basically kills all sorts of things in fiction and it makes all sorts of assumptions that may or may not even be true. My dad was in war, like an actual war and has worked in a prison for decades now, does that mean we shouldn't have comedies about war or prisons where lots of bad shit happens? Never mind the fact its a huge leap to assume people will get immediately offended by something in fiction that may have happened to them in real life. There are plenty of people who've had bad things happen to them and do not get offended by something in fiction using or showing it for any reason, dramatic or comedic.

It's also a stupid standard to judge things on because it WILL kill fiction in every form because everyone can draw a comparison between fiction and something that happened in real life to them, even if it's totally wrong or just flat out stupid, the conclusions will be drawn.

I also take issue with the Vegeta vs Roshi comparison because Roshi's idiocy has never been played straight, they always treated it as comedy whereas Vegeta was something the entire cast feared for multiple arcs and the series went out of its way to paint him as a piece of shit. The series just ignores both, what's better: comedy being handwaved because its comedy, or a psychopath murderer being forgiven/forgotten after being played completely straight for multiple arcs.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Doctor. » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:15 pm

ABED wrote:No, they can't fly or shoot energy blasts, but we can kill people.
Of course only the government can actually enforce it but demanding that an author doesn't write or draw something is the same as wanting censorship in my eyes. Not liking it is one thing, saying "It shouldn't have been done/It shouldn't be done regardless of context" like some people here are implying is completely extremist totalitarian behavior. It doesn't matter if you like it or find it in good taste or not, you will never have the right to limit a person's vision.
It's not the same. One is force, the other is persuasion. One of my biggest problems is blurring the distinction between peaceful voluntary action with force.
Trying to persuade with totalitarian rethoric such as "This shouldn't be done" is just one step away from using force. The people who think this way don't use force because they don't have the power to.
Olympian wrote:I don`t know, female viewers who likely at some point in their lifes have suffered or were about to suffer the same type of antics. There is no double standard in this context to me. Murder, genocide, beating up children who aren`t Chucky is all wrong but thanks to literal devices like in this case, the Dragon Balls, fiction is allowed to exageratte (ala explosions in action movies) because said literal device brings people back from the dead. It`s the Ex Machina at work. It`s magic, poof! Everyone back with a single wish.

Is there any actual device to stop a Roshi antic being humilliating other than killing him? Well, no. Female characters have to suffer it. Don`t get me wrong, I would gladly turn the gag around with Roshi trying to harass and rape and getting perpetually offed by his victims only to be brought back but I`m not sure how better it would be because the joke would dry after the first attempt.
Ekrolo already explained it well that you might as well never write anything out of fear of offending someone, but I'll add that the implications of death don't disappear just because the Dragon Balls exist. That would be akin to me saying the implications of sexual harassment disappear because the DBs exist. Why don't they just wish any possible psychological trauma away? Obviously that would be needlessly treating something comedic seriously and ruining the joke; same logic applies when people ask why they don't wish back Kaio. They don't wish back Kaio because that's the joke; if the series acknowledged that Goku is a scumbag for not wishing him back, the joke would be ruined. Regardless if you think the joke is good or not, treating it seriously is not the point. The series plays it light by showing that Kaio keeps his body, so being revived wouldn't make much of a difference, just as it plays it light with Roshi's antics by showing the victims don't really care in the long-run. Roshi, in the context of the series, is one of the strongest characters alive and was the strongest on Earth at a point; he could get away with sexual assault or even rape if he chose to. The fact that he doesn't indicates that there's no malice both by the character comitting the act and the author writing the gag.

Also, the fact that you think murder is an appropriate response to sexual assault is disturbing, at the very least.

User avatar
Asura
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Asura » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:57 pm

Olympian wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Who is this affecting? You keep claiming it's bad and expect it to believe it's bad... because? You have yet to give reasons as to why Roshi's actions are an issue at all.
I don`t know, female viewers who likely at some point in their lifes have suffered or were about to suffer the same type of antics. There is no double standard in this context to me. Murder, genocide, beating up children who aren`t Chucky is all wrong but thanks to literal devices like in this case, the Dragon Balls, fiction is allowed to exageratte (ala explosions in action movies) because said literal device brings people back from the dead. It`s the Ex Machina at work. It`s magic, poof! Everyone back with a single wish.

Is there any actual device to stop a Roshi antic being humilliating other than killing him? Well, no. Female characters have to suffer it. Don`t get me wrong, I would gladly turn the gag around with Roshi trying to harass and rape and getting perpetually offed by his victims only to be brought back but I`m not sure how better it would be because the joke would dry after the first attempt.
So jokes and gags about sexual assault are bad, but jokes and gags about murdering someone is okay? Where does this line get drawn? People are more comfortable with the idea of murder than sexual assault. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? There's an extremely popular YouTube comedian by the name of iDubbbz who addressed issues like this. He said that either nothing is off limits in comedy, or everything is off limits. You can't pick and choose what you should and shouldn't make jokes about. I find this notion of sex in media = bad, but murder, mayhem, violence, destruction = okay to be very strange, and that is the disconnect between the west and Japan. The west is afraid of portraying sex in any kind of light in media, but they're perfectly okay with gruesome and horrific violence, as well as jokes about gruesome and horrific violence.

But really, I think this scenario boils down to the old "think of the children!" excuse, where somehow seeing Master Roshi do perverted antics teaches kids that it's okay to rape people or something. Pure ridiculousness. People are getting the shit beaten out of them all the time in Dragon Ball. Goku goes up and slaps women's crotches to see if they're a boy or a girl. Is this teaching children that it's okay to go around punching random people? Do kids grow up thinking it's okay to slap people in the privates because they watched Goku do it? No, no they don't, and if they do then that is the fault of the parents, not the TV show.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Roshi's perverted antics in Dragon Ball. How strange it is that no one seemed to care about Roshi's antics only 10-20 years ago, and now all of a sudden his past antics in DB and DBZ have become huge problems. Of course, DBS has taken this to the next level with their insane scenes that almost depict and certainly hint at rape, which is something that was never done in DB or DBZ, but people's problems with Roshi don't just end at DBS, now do they? Because the writers mishandled these jokes in DBS, it's caused people to think every joke that was ever made regarding Roshi is wrong and should be censored. And no, censorship is not some government only thing. You can censor your own work by removing elements from it, or stopping those elements altogether.

Roshi's antics do not normalize the idea of rape, just like Vegeta killing people does not normalize the idea of murder.
Doctor. wrote:They don't wish back Kaio because that's the joke; if the series acknowledged that Goku is a scumbag for not wishing him back, the joke would be ruined. Regardless if you think the joke is good or not, treating it seriously is not the point. The series plays it light by showing that Kaio keeps his body, so being revived wouldn't make much of a difference, just as it plays it light with Roshi's antics by showing the victims don't really care in the long-run. Roshi, in the context of the series, is one of the strongest characters alive and was the strongest on Earth at a point; he could get away with sexual assault or even rape if he chose to. The fact that he doesn't indicates that there's no malice both by the character comitting the act and the author writing the gag.
This is a great point too. Why does no one get offended of the idea of Goku getting Kaio killed and basically refusing to ever revive him? What a monster he is to get an innocent person killed and not even revive him in a show in which you can revive anyone at basically any point and time. That's a pretty fucked up thing to do, right? But it's a running gag, and everyone laughs at Kaio essentially being murdered and not getting his wish to come back to life even when he asks Goku to. When jokes about murder are replaced with jokes about sex, suddenly the topic becomes taboo though.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:08 pm

Asura wrote: When jokes about murder are replaced with jokes about sex, suddenly the topic becomes taboo though.
I posed a similar line of questioning recently on SpaceBattles.com to see if I could get some concrete answers and the closest thing to one is this:

"American culture began with people having to hunt and farm, plus a lot of conflict with the natives and eventually the English, so killing was something that seen as necessary, if not particularly glamorous. It also happens to be a natural consequence of having conflict in your stories, so writers and creators have little reason to not use it. You can certainly say some people employ it less tastefully than others, but it's generally not something we get up in arms about unless someone pushes the boundaries too far.

As for sex, America started out with a pretty sexually conservative foundation (sex is a highly intimate thing that should be reserved for a husband and wife), and kinda stuck with that until the 1960s. Then the sexual revolution happened and in cinema, well, to be honest, people shoved sex and nudity into things that didn't really need them far more than they used them to enhance the work itself. A lot of people in Hollywood think that tossing sex into something makes it edgy/mature, and usually they fuck it up and make it embarrassing. Hell, I would argue that holds true to today - the amount of films I've personally seen that use onscreen sex well basically amounts to American Psycho and that one Korean film where the guy who spends years in prison or whatever gets tricked into sleeping with his daughter (because they use that sex scene to make you uncomfortable as fuck, which is how you should feel at the end). Nowadays, some shows/movies try to use sex scenes to deliver exposition, but that just kind of highlights how narratively useless most sex scenes are - you could literally cut them out and lose nothing in most cases."

This definitely feels like an American thing as you, I and others have speculated on.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Olympian
Regular
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Olympian » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:34 pm

I already adressed why in my view is different. It`s not that you should shut out fiction because it`s offensive, is that when it comes to killing, this Shonen got an easy way out. It`s a device called the Dragon Balls who virtually grants a person`s wish, most usually bringing back who was killed in a given arc.

There`s no such device within the frame of the story for a Roshi antic, aka: rape attempt. That`s the context, not the forced premise that there is a lesser evil between killing and raping. They`re both shite.

I`m equally aware it`s a gag. "Naruto" also had the main character`s Sensei being a peeping tom as a running gag but with the counter balance that he actually sort of sucked being sucesseful with women. With that detail in mind, what one should think about is whether certain gags could still work in 2017 and the way they are presented because we`re not in 1984 any longer. Did anyone actually found the scene being discussed as funny here?

Anyone? Blueller?
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17794
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:40 pm

Asura wrote:This is a great point too. Why does no one get offended of the idea of Goku getting Kaio killed and basically refusing to ever revive him?
It's been acknowledged by fans and in-series.

Also, he's a blue cat-fish god that doesn't have a real-life parallel.

Furthermore, and I'm getting blunt at this point, but "nuh uh, you're just saying it's a 'think of the children' situation!" -- to someone like me who's literally covered how local governments and activist groups have attempted to block this series from children over the last two decades -- is such utter bullshit that I can't even comprehend what some of you are saying. There is no comprehension. I can't comprehend. I am at a loss for thoughts. No thoughts are had anymore. Mind is blank and sad. I'm exhausted and disgusted with what I keep reading, and I'm wondering what I could have done in the last 20 years to prevent this kind of thinking from permeating throughout a community I have fostered and loved with my whole being.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6643
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:54 pm

Haven't they been trying to tone it down lately, with his training for the ToP and such?
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Doctor. » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:15 pm

Olympian wrote:I already adressed why in my view is different. It`s not that you should shut out fiction because it`s offensive, is that when it comes to killing, this Shonen got an easy way out. It`s a device called the Dragon Balls who virtually grants a person`s wish, most usually bringing back who was killed in a given arc.

There`s no such device within the frame of the story for a Roshi antic, aka: rape attempt. That`s the context, not the forced premise that there is a lesser evil between killing and raping. They`re both shite.
The "Dragon Balls exist" excuse doesn't really work considering we specifically mentioned Vegeta, the person who killed millions of people who haven't been revived and most likely never got to keep their bodies. Dragon Balls existing or not is moot considering that Vegeta's victims are still dead.

And I'm not sure why you believe the excuse doesn't work both ways? The Dragon Balls can grant any wish, they don't just revive people. They can absolutely serve as a plot device for solutions to Roshi's antics; they don't because the series doesn't believe it's that serious of an issue.
Olympian wrote:I`m equally aware it`s a gag. "Naruto" also had the main character`s Sensei being a peeping tom as a running gag but with the counter balance that he actually sort of sucked being sucesseful with women. With that detail in mind, what one should think about is whether certain gags could still work in 2017 and the way they are presented because we`re not in 1984 any longer. Did anyone actually found the scene being discussed as funny here?

Anyone? Blueller?
We were talking about Roshi's antics in general, not specifically about DBS #89. But regardless, why does it matter if anyone found it funny? Bad joke or good joke, it's still meant to be taken as a joke. I didn't laugh, but I normally don't laugh at Roshi's antics to begin with (DB's juvenile humor is a reason why I prefer Z over it). If someone did laugh, what then?

Could the joke have been executed better? Sure. Does it have the right to exist in its current form? Also yes.
VegettoEX wrote:Also, he's a blue cat-fish god that doesn't have a real-life parallel.
Are we really going to be this petty? Bulma is a super genius teenager with natural blue hair and access to incredible sci-fi technology; she doesn't have a real-life parallel either, or will you try to make the argument that she represents all women? In the context of the series, Kaio is a person and Bulma is a person. And Kaio is a person who got murdered against his will and hasn't yet been resurrected despite that being his wish; Bulma is a person who got sexually harassed on occasion and didn't really seem to care in the long-run.
VegettoEX wrote:There is no comprehension. I can't comprehend. I am at a loss for thoughts. No thoughts are had anymore. Mind is blank and sad. I'm exhausted and disgusted with what I keep reading, and I'm wondering what I could have done in the last 20 years to prevent this kind of thinking from permeating throughout a community I have fostered and loved with my whole being.
Now this is just overreaction at the fact that some people believe a harmless joke doesn't have any real-life consequences.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6643
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:
rather than "How can we censor this?"
Only the government can censor something. Everyone has every right to dislike that sort of humor and even ask for the artists to no longer use sexual harassment as fodder for a joke. By the same token, the artists also have a right to not listen.
Of course only the government can actually enforce it but demanding that an author doesn't write or draw something is the same as wanting censorship in my eyes. Not liking it is one thing, saying "It shouldn't have been done/It shouldn't be done regardless of context" like some people here are implying is completely extremist totalitarian behavior. It doesn't matter if you like it or find it in good taste or not, you will never have the right to limit a person's vision.
How is that any different from people saying things like 'GT/Super should never have been made, Goku should not get so much attention compared to the other characters, Toriyama should have ended the series at the Freeza Saga, Super should have skipped the BoG and Resurrection F arcs and gone straight to the Champa stuff, Gohan should have been the one to defeat Buu, Gohan should never have become a scholar' etc.?

In all of those cases we have people complaining about how the story was written and suggesting it should have been done differently.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Doctor. » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:56 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:How is that any different from people saying things like 'GT/Super should never have been made, Goku should not get so much attention compared to the other characters, Toriyama should have ended the series at the Freeza Saga, Super should have skipped the BoG and Resurrection F arcs and gone straight to the Champa stuff, Gohan should have been the one to defeat Buu, Gohan should never have become a scholar' etc.?

In all of those cases we have people complaining about how the story was written and suggesting it should have been done differently.
Saying something could have been done better is very different from the statements being thrown around in this thread that these kinds of jokes should never be done regardless of context.

DragonBallKing
Regular
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:44 pm
Location: Oklahoma, USA

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by DragonBallKing » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:01 pm

I'm confused if this thread is referring to his antics in Super with Puar or his antics throughout all of Dragon Ball. Can someone enlighten me?
Check out my MAL page: https://myanimelist.net/profile/RapeHorse


Original Dragon Ball arcs ranking: 23rd Budokai, Saiyan, 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, 22nd Budokai, DB Hunt, Cell, Buu

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6643
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:09 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:How is that any different from people saying things like 'GT/Super should never have been made, Goku should not get so much attention compared to the other characters, Toriyama should have ended the series at the Freeza Saga, Super should have skipped the BoG and Resurrection F arcs and gone straight to the Champa stuff, Gohan should have been the one to defeat Buu, Gohan should never have become a scholar' etc.?

In all of those cases we have people complaining about how the story was written and suggesting it should have been done differently.
Saying something could have been done better is very different from the statements being thrown around in this thread that these kinds of jokes should never be done regardless of context.
Well it's the same thing, many people say that GT or Super should never have been made, or that Goku should have been the only Super Saiyan, or that the Broly movies should never have been made, or such and such character should never have been introduced, etc.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6128
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:16 pm

Part of me is wondering if I should even get involved in this thread. It's already volatile, I'm just asking for trouble, and I'm on vacation, damn it!

First off, I want to say that, whether you come down on one side, the other, or some context-sensitive area in between, I don't see the point in getting defensive about the subject coming up in the first place. The underlying topic is a very, very important one. I admit I find the term "rape culture," taken purely on its face, to be somewhat hyperbolic. I really think you'd be hard-pressed to find many people who could consciously admit to saying or even thinking that rape is a good and permissible thing. But all you need do is take one look at the headlines over the past few months, unless you think all or most of those people are lying, to realize that people who feel they can get away with it can and will and do manipulate others to satisfy their sexual urges. And while those who perpetrate those acts might be able to wage semantics arguments over whether or not that technically counts as your "grand old traditional physically force yourself on someone" rape, that doesn't change the fact that these are serious problems that need to be addressed and corrected. In fact, if people are rationalizing Weinstein-esque behavior as not "real" rape or the like, it's all the more reason to dig into the subconscious conditioning that would lead people to feel that such behavior is okay somehow. So while I don't think we can or should blame media for our ills because at the end of the day, we are responsible for our own actions, I don't think we can go so far as to say the media we consume does not ever have an effect on what we view as "normal." As such, this is a necessary conversation and one that can't and shouldn't be dismissed. And if by "rape culture," we mean the long list of power disparity "seductions," harassment, and micro-aggressions we as a society manage to tolerate, then I don't feel that's too far off the mark.

As for Dragon Ball specifically, as an adult, I have come to view Kame Sennin's antics through a different lens, and it causes me to wonder whether this is something I should find humorous or not. I also freely recognize that individuals' backgrounds are going to color certain forms of comedy for them. Someone who has been sexually assaulted is probably not going to find sexual assault humor funny. As someone who is gender non-conforming, there are times when I certainly can find crossdressing jokes humorous, but I am certainly on-guard when they come up, because I am so weary of navigating those unpleasant waters myself in real life. And especially since Dragon Ball Super made me so uncomfortable with its recent forays into sexual harassment types of humor, I've had to question whether there is something different about those examples that make them particularly cringeworthy, or if I give the old stuff a pass because I grew up with it. But I also strongly believe that humor is a necessary and cathartic lens through which we view the world, and one of its forms is to help us cope with the darker aspects of reality. In a general sense, I do feel that nothing should be off-limits in comedy. But since context is key and comedy is subjective, while one joke about a dark subject matter can be seen as funny, another can be seen as offensive. But I do think this thread has finally crystalized for me why I find early DB sex humor and Super sex humor to be different.

When I covered the first arc in Dragon Ball Dissection, one of the things I pointed out was how refreshingly fun it is that pretty much all of our main protagonists (except for Goku) are terrible people in one way or another. Their goals and methods of achieving those goals are often pretty reprehensible. But since they are all screwing each other over, it works in a comedic sense. When someone is hoisted by his/her own petard in fiction, it is rewarding. Blooma is a character who controls and manipulates other people through her sexuality. That's one of her shticks early on. She freely shows off her panties to get a Dragon Ball from Goku. She willingly does the same (or so she thinks) to Kame Sennin before even being promised anything in return. So her getting in over her head in this context diminishes what could otherwise be seen as horrific. And let me break in right here to clarify that I am not saying in real life, any of what happens to her is okay. It is NOT okay, under any circumstances. Period. At. All. Ever. Likewise, Oolong is at one point strongly coerced into letting himself be physically molested by Kame Sennin. And in real life, that is not okay, period. Full stop. But given his own perverted antics, in fiction, especially given the tone of this piece of fiction in particular, it can be seen as justified comeuppance.

There is also the fact that, in the context of the work, the characters who are on the receiving end of harassment and groping don't really treat it as a big deal. It is handled as little more than an annoyance rather than a traumatic event. Now, you might be saying, and fairly so, that that is part of the problem. That is what is helping normalize such behavior. From what I understand, it certainly feels like that behavior was normalized in Japan at that time, and this is simply a reflection of their own culture. There is definitely a case to be made there. But it does help, in this farcical context, to cause it to more easily be seen as comedic.

And those are the reasons why I think what worked in early Dragon Ball falls flat on its face in Super. When Kame Sennin is trying to assault Yurin or Pu'erh, that feels much more down to earth, much more realistic, than anything we've seen before. When Blooma gets angry and elbows Kame Sennin in the face, while that does not justify what he did, it makes her feel much more in control of a situation than, well, Pu'erh running away screaming while trapped in an enclosed space. That is much closer to what sexual assault actually is, and, as such, there is no humor to be found in it. It's just uncomfortable. It's power disparity. It's helplessness. It's an oncoming, unstoppable force. And I can certainly see that pulling the rug out from under people and causing them to question everything else. And that's not me saying we're wrong for doing so. Art should be examined and re-examined. Comedy should be examined and re-examined. Because as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, art often is a reflection of what we are. And if there is any reason to believe that any of the above listed behaviors are reflections of us, they need to be examined and dealt with.
Last edited by Gaffer Tape on Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 2/16/26!)
Current Episode: The Airtight Case for Slice of Life! - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Resurrection 'F' Arc Part 1

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Doctor. » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:21 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Well it's the same thing, many people say that GT or Super should never have been made, or that Goku should have been the only Super Saiyan, or that the Broly movies should never have been made, or such and such character should never have been introduced, etc.
Again, apples and oranges. People who complain about plot points are complaining about the way the story was handled and it's a whole different basket compared to people pretty much implying you shouldn't be allowed to write these kinds of jokes because it's "too far" or "in bad taste."

User avatar
Asura
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Asura » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:09 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Asura wrote:This is a great point too. Why does no one get offended of the idea of Goku getting Kaio killed and basically refusing to ever revive him?
It's been acknowledged by fans and in-series.

Also, he's a blue cat-fish god that doesn't have a real-life parallel.

Furthermore, and I'm getting blunt at this point, but "nuh uh, you're just saying it's a 'think of the children' situation!" -- to someone like me who's literally covered how local governments and activist groups have attempted to block this series from children over the last two decades -- is such utter bullshit that I can't even comprehend what some of you are saying. There is no comprehension. I can't comprehend. I am at a loss for thoughts. No thoughts are had anymore. Mind is blank and sad. I'm exhausted and disgusted with what I keep reading, and I'm wondering what I could have done in the last 20 years to prevent this kind of thinking from permeating throughout a community I have fostered and loved with my whole being.
I apologize if I miscategorized your argument. I was under the impression that the problems you and others have with Roshi's antics is that they are impressionable and teach people/kids/whomever that it is okay to do these things. Is that not, after all, why we're arguing about how people view murder and sex differently? Why are we arguing about how fantasy affects reality if not that it leaves impressions on people to do these things? You argue that Kaio is a blue cat-fish god so it doesn't matter because such a thing does not exist in real life, but there are women in Dragon Ball, and there are women in real life, so aren't you making the parallel between these two areas and how it relates to Roshi's antics?

The last few posts you've made have been along the lines of "I can't believe my community is like this..." "I can't believe people actually think this way..." etc. May I ask what exactly you think it is we're saying? Because I don't see how any of things that have been said in this thread on either side are outrageous or disgusting. Everyone here thinks sexual assault is bad. Everyone here thinks rape is bad. The argument is not whether these things are okay, it's whether it's okay or not to make jokes about these topics. It's about how comedy and the taboo intertwine and what is okay to say, and what isn't okay to say, and the potential ramifications/consequences for a joke of a sexual nature falling flat on its face as it has with Roshi in DBS. There's also the difference between what the west finds acceptable, and what eastern countries like Japan find acceptable in their humor. The biggest question that has to be asked in this thread is where is the line drawn, and who draws this line? Who decides what is okay to make jokes about, and what is not okay to make jokes about?

User avatar
TheZFighter
Regular
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:40 am

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by TheZFighter » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:21 pm

I have to say I do find myself conflicted about Roshi nowadays.

As a youngster watching originally I wasn't really "aware" of the serious implications of Roshi's lecherous behaviour and didn't pay much notice. I liked the character a lot and just viewed his gross perversion as a quirk. Now I look through older eyes I find I really dislike that side of the character.

It may explain why we saw so little of him in DBZ compared to DB. It is a shame because he's always done the wise old guy thing so well.
Z-Fighters fan.

Goku, Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu, Yajirobe, Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Android 18, Goten, Trunks and Majin Buu.

User avatar
PsionicWarrior
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1569
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:33 pm

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:33 pm

Wow this is crazy. The joke is basically Roshi who wants to 'pafu pafu' then gets beaten up by these women. He's one of the strongest man on Earth but any woman can beat him up no problem. I don't think it encourages rape culture or anything to such extent and the message that his behavior is inappropriate is pretty clear from the get-go.

rereboy
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10262
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:34 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I don't know how or why I have to explain why reaffirming rape culture is a bad thing.

This is very frightening to read on my forum.
I don't agree that a joke based on a pervert is "reaffirming rape culture", just like I don't think that a joke based on violence would be reaffirming violent culture. A lot has already been said about why that is and I mostly agree. To me, as I said before, it's all bout the context, which in this case is humor not meant to be taken seriously. To go about it any other way is to kill humor altogether because humor always makes fun of something and there are always people who will not like it.
VegettoEX wrote:Furthermore, and I'm getting blunt at this point, but "nuh uh, you're just saying it's a 'think of the children' situation!" -- to someone like me who's literally covered how local governments and activist groups have attempted to block this series from children over the last two decades -- is such utter bullshit that I can't even comprehend what some of you are saying. There is no comprehension. I can't comprehend. I am at a loss for thoughts. No thoughts are had anymore. Mind is blank and sad. I'm exhausted and disgusted with what I keep reading, and I'm wondering what I could have done in the last 20 years to prevent this kind of thinking from permeating throughout a community I have fostered and loved with my whole being.
I think this is an exaggeration.

User avatar
TheGreatness25
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5004
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:37 pm

I'm on the side that all of those antics of Roshi's were terrible. The message is not that it should be censored or acknowledged with a disclaimer, but it is really disturbing to read how many people actually find nothing wrong with it.

How is it a joke? How is it funny? Maybe when we were all little kids and didn't truly understand what it was, we could laugh at it, but anyone who is able to go onto a forum and arrange their thoughts in a comprehendible way, should not find that Roshi's antics were fine.

Yes, the subject plays a giant role in this. Many people are not uncomfortable with over-powered people bashing each others' faces in, but sexual and racial issues are very controversial because they hit too close to home. No, I don't know anyone that was blasted away by some alien, but you can know someone who was stared at uncomfortably, touched, or spoken to with a sexual motivation. It's something that exists and is disgusting in real life. Should we turn a blind eye to it because Toriyama wrote about it and we like the general series? The big warriors come out to throw criticism on people with, "People are so over-sensitive about sex stuff!" Yes, because it's real and it's uncomfortable. Because many people face that -- especially young women. There are little girls who are targeted by that kind of disgusting behavior. I've known girls -- little girls -- who have been looked at, touched, and spoken to by middle-aged men.

So what's the difference between Muten Roshi and those kinds of men? He's not doing anything differently. He looks at any kind of woman -- including underage girls. And it's not like this is his private fantasy, he actually acts upon his desires, making every female in the series at some point, uncomfortable. And that's not okay.

If he was just some old man with a ton of porn and has fantasies about the women, hey, can't really blame him for it. Whatever, let him go nuts. But, he acts upon them and that's the entire problem.

Having it be dismissed as, "Oh that Roshi, he's so silly," is ridiculous. If you knew this guy in real life and gave him a pass for what he does, then you are supporting a horrendous human being.

In this age, we understand what Muten Roshi does. We can't turn a blind eye to it and laugh it up. Let's put a different spin on it, let's say that Roshi isn't a perv, let's say that he's a racist. And let's say there are characters who portray a different race than Roshi and he continuously calls them derogatory names, spits at them, and tries to have them killed, would you say, "Well that's just the humor!" I certainly hope not. This is just as bad, but targeted toward women rather than people of a different race. It's all behavior that should never be glorified, encouraged, nor supported.

As pointed out earlier, this is a discussion about thoughts and opinions, it's not about taking action. Nobody's saying to go back and cut out all of those scenes or anything. The discussion is essentially taking a poll on how people feel about it, and I strongly feel that it's terrible. It's not funny, it's not entertaining, it's just trash. And as much as I love Toriyama's work, I seriously question what kind of a mind could think to make a character like this as a protagonist. This isn't a generation thing, this isn't a "Well that was then before it was such an issue," no, it's always been an issue. This is the kind of character who is a villain in a TV show, who you want to see get his come-uppance and cheer when he gets stabbed in prison. This is not a hero.

Asking teenage girls for their underwear is not a joke. Touching women is not a joke. Him trying to hit on a woman to get shut down can be a joke. Roshi being caught with a ton of embarrassing porn can be a joke. Roshi watching his little exercise videos can be a joke. Him squeezing someone's boob or rubbing someone's ass or shrinking himself to watch a girl go to the bathroom is not a joke. Never was, never will be. You wouldn't give a pass to the guy who lives on the corner house doing it, why does Roshi get a pass?

DragonBallKing
Regular
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:44 pm
Location: Oklahoma, USA

Re: Roshi's antics

Post by DragonBallKing » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:38 pm

TheZFighter wrote:I have to say I do find myself conflicted about Roshi nowadays.

As a youngster watching originally I wasn't really "aware" of the serious implications of Roshi's lecherous behaviour and didn't pay much notice. I liked the character a lot and just viewed his gross perversion as a quirk. Now I look through older eyes I find I really dislike that side of the character.

It may explain why we saw so little of him in DBZ compared to DB. It is a shame because he's always done the wise old guy thing so well.
The problem is looking at it from a real world perspective instead of a fantasyperspective. Just like the Goku is a terrible father thing should not be looked at from a realistic perspective because the dragon world is so different from ours. Sheesh, when people take gags in a cartoon to seriously. :roll:
Check out my MAL page: https://myanimelist.net/profile/RapeHorse


Original Dragon Ball arcs ranking: 23rd Budokai, Saiyan, 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, 22nd Budokai, DB Hunt, Cell, Buu

Locked