"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

Yeah, "thank god" they keep playing safe, so that we can have a franchise in which games are more interesting than the main product.

[Noah]

They refuse to learn anything from Dragon Ball Heroes.

And why exactly they should ruin the series by having all characters with god damn Super Saiyan 3 and past villains returning?

[sintzu]

Why would they think this ?

If I am not mistaken the Cell games was very popular and people loved ssj2 gohan beating cell.

Vegeta getting a win isn't going to hurt the franchise, hell i would say vegeta might have a bigger fanbase than goku and people would enjoy it

In an interview from 2005 they said during the Z part of the story Goku wasn't around as much as he was in DB and that they had to always try to come up with filler involving him in fears of kids losing interest, even though older fans wouldn't. From that interview and based on how Super's anime plays out they clearly still think no one cares about anyone other than Goku. Thankfully Toyotarou knows better.

It was very popular alongside Namek, both which managed to tell great stories without Goku being in the picture 24/7.

Having him promoted as the hero of an arc would probably bring in more people who'd just want to see how something so different to DB would play out. If Sasuke from Naruto can hold his own arcs and get his own villains then so can Vegeta, the difference is that one team looks for different way to change things while the other won't even think about them (minus Toyotarou).

[HeroR]

Yeah, "thank god" they keep playing safe, so that we can have a franchise in which games are more interesting than the main product.

Playing it safe is one thing. Throwing everything against the wall is another. Which is what Heroes is. And it being more interesting is subjective since I never had an interest in Heroes or any game for that matter.

Why would they think this ?

If I am not mistaken the Cell games was very popular and people loved ssj2 gohan beating cell.

Vegeta getting a win isn't going to hurt the franchise, hell i would say vegeta might have a bigger fanbase than goku and people would enjoy it

In an interview from 2005 they said during the Z part of the story Goku wasn't around as much as he was in DB and that they had to always try to come up with filler involving him in fears of kids losing interest, even though older fans wouldn't. From that interview and based on how Super's anime plays out they clearly still think no one cares about anyone other than Goku. Thankfully Toyotarou knows better.

It was very popular alongside Namek, both which managed to tell great stories without Goku being in the picture 24/7.

Having him promoted as the hero of an arc would probably bring in more people who'd just want to see how something so different to DB would play out. If Sasuke from Naruto can hold his own arcs and get his own villains then so can Vegeta, the difference is that one team looks for different way to change things while the other won't even think about them (minus Toyotarou).

You know, people keep comparing Vegeta to Sasuke and the comparison is really shallow. For one, Sasuke was built as Naruto's main rival from the start and the story revolves around their story with the climax being their great battle. Vegeta didn't show up until a third through the manga and is Goku's fifth rival. The rivalry itself is also extremely one-sided since Goku doesn't give a damn about it and doesn't particularly care if Vegeta surpasses him. If the series really want to evolved, they would dumped Vegeta from the 'eternal rival' slot and put someone new.

And Toyo does the same thing as the anime, only that he inserts Vegeta along with Goku. And the Cell Saga in general isn't as well-liked in Japan. A lot of the popularity of that arc comes from the international audience.

[BlueBasilisk]

I wasn't active in the fandom back then, but I'm curious. What was the general reaction to Beerus winning in Battle of Gods? Some of the people I talked to after watching it were pretty salty that Goku lost to him and the "bad guy" won.

[sintzu]

Best Characters
1.Son Goku: 6,235 points
2.Vegeta: 2,527 points

Vegeta fans just tend to be more vocal. In Japan, Goku has no equal.

Not exactly a fair comparison when Goku is the franchise's main character and Vegeta never got a chance to prove himself. Just because a character isn't as liked doesn't mean people won't give him a chance.

I wasn't active in the fandom back then, but I'm curious. What was the general reaction to Beerus winning in Battle of Gods? Some of the people I talked to after watching it were pretty salty that Goku lost to him and the "bad guy" won.

I and most here think it was a great move as him winning would just be like the other 13 movies. Why does Goku need to win everything ? out of the 15 movies people are mad he lost to ONE villain ?

[HeroR]

Not exactly a fair comparison when Goku is the franchise's main character and Vegeta never got a chance to prove himself. Just because a character isn't as liked doesn't mean people won't give him a chance.

I wasn't active in the fandom back then, but I'm curious. What was the general reaction to Beerus winning in Battle of Gods? Some of the people I talked to after watching it were pretty salty that Goku lost to him and the "bad guy" won.

I and most here think it was a great move as him winning would just be like the other 13 movies. Why does Goku need to win everything ? out of the 15 movies people are mad he lost to ONE villain ?

That wasn't my point. The poster I was responding to said that Vegeta's fanbase was probably bigger than Vegeta's. So I posted a poll, outdated granted, that shows that is extremely unlikely at least in Japan. In the US, Goku and Vegeta poll much closer with Vegeta some times beating Goku. However, in Japan which is the only market Toei and Toriyama looks at, Goku has no equal.

Vegeta has plenty of chances to prove himself. He just never killed the main villain one-on-one. However, he has assisted in killing Cell and Buu.

[Grimlock]

And why exactly they should ruin the series by having all characters with god damn Super Saiyan 3 and past villains returning?

Except that's not the only thing Heroes brings and that's not what I aimed to talk about.

Playing it safe is one thing. Throwing everything against the wall is another. Which is what Heroes is. And it being more interesting is subjective since I never had an interest in Heroes or any game for that matter.

And talking about statistics is another too. Playing safe just confine the series when it could have been more, bigger, better. Heroes is there to prove that you can bring things outside of the box, it's subjective if one likes it or not indeed, but it's a fact that the repeated formula they keep using in the main product is becoming obsolete when you have games, that are not the main product, bringing and covering new stuff and selling pretty damn well, even though it doesn't have that crappy and old-fashioned formula. And if it sells well, then you realize they are, once again, missing a great opportunity here.

[Noah]

The rivalry itself is also extremely one-sided since Goku doesn't give a damn about it and doesn't particularly care if Vegeta surpasses him.

Sure, like he broke the wall of Gohan's house after knowing Vegeta was training with Whis it's been 6 months and how he said it was unfair for him to go train first.

Best Characters
1.Son Goku: 6,235 points
2.Vegeta: 2,527 points

Vegeta fans just tend to be more vocal. In Japan, Goku has no equal.

Again, this is from a pool made thirteen years ago, it's obsolete, so it shouldn't be taken in consideration nowadays.

Except that's not the only thing Heroes brings and that's not what I aimed to talk about.

Oh yea? Then what were you aiming exactly?

[HeroR]

And why exactly they should ruin the series by having all characters with god damn Super Saiyan 3 and past villains returning?

Except that's not the only thing Heroes brings and that's not what I aimed to talk about.

Playing it safe is one thing. Throwing everything against the wall is another. Which is what Heroes is. And it being more interesting is subjective since I never had an interest in Heroes or any game for that matter.

And talking about statistics is another too. Playing safe just limit the series when it could have been more, bigger, better. Heroes is there to prove that you can bring things outside of the box, it's subjective if one likes it or not indeed, but it's a fact that the repeated formula they used in the main product is becoming obsolete when you have games, that are not the main product, bringing and covering new stuff and selling pretty damn well, even though it doesn't have that crappy and old-fashioned formula. And if it sells well, then you realize they are, once again, missing a great opportunity here.

Heroes is throwing shit against the wall and making stuff stick. It even recycle old ideas from across the franchise. And what works in a video game doesn't alway work for an anime or manga, otherwise Hereos would of had its own anime by now. Which is preferable over Super getting suck with Heroes' crap. Super can be its own thing and Heroes can stay its own. No need for the two to meet.

The rivalry itself is also extremely one-sided since Goku doesn't give a damn about it and doesn't particularly care if Vegeta surpasses him.

Sure, like he broke the wall of Gohan's house after knowing Vegeta was training with Whis it's been 6 months and how he said it was unfair for him to go train first.

Best Characters
1.Son Goku: 6,235 points
2.Vegeta: 2,527 points

Vegeta fans just tend to be more vocal. In Japan, Goku has no equal.

Again, this is from a pool made thirteen years ago, it's obsolete, so it shouldn't be taken in consideration nowadays.

Except that's not the only thing Heroes brings and that's not what I aimed to talk about.

Oh yea? Then what were you aiming exactly?

He broke the wall over Whis training someone, not Vegeta passing him. When he saw Vegeta and said that he may have gotten stronger than him, Goku wasn't jealous, but instead proud of Vegeta. The same with Vegeta getting god ki on his own when he needed the ritual. He even tries to push Vegeta to train with him, not caring that leaving Vegeta would give him an edge like with him going into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for three years or training with Whis in 77.

It is still proof that Goku beat Vegeta by a landslide and even smaller polls taken across Japan over the years have Goku beating Vegeta.

[BlueVegerot]

Not exactly a fair comparison when Goku is the franchise's main character and Vegeta never got a chance to prove himself. Just because a character isn't as liked doesn't mean people won't give him a chance.

I wasn't active in the fandom back then, but I'm curious. What was the general reaction to Beerus winning in Battle of Gods? Some of the people I talked to after watching it were pretty salty that Goku lost to him and the "bad guy" won.

I and most here think it was a great move as him winning would just be like the other 13 movies. Why does Goku need to win everything ? out of the 15 movies people are mad he lost to ONE villain ?

That wasn't my point. The poster I was responding to said that Vegeta's fanbase was probably bigger than Vegeta's. So I posted a poll, outdated granted, that shows that is extremely unlikely at least in Japan. In the US, Goku and Vegeta poll much closer with Vegeta some times beating Goku. However, in Japan which is the only market Toei and Toriyama looks at, Goku has no equal.

Vegeta has plenty of chances to prove himself. He just never killed the main villain one-on-one. However, he has assisted in killing Cell and Buu.

Vegeta is not a real person, toriyama has not written a main win for him therefore he can't prove himself. The notion that dragonball would be less popular if vegeta killed freeza in Revival F or finished off goku black (if that arc was changed a bit) is utterly ridiculous. Gohan beating cell didn't cause the franchise to collapse, vegeta getting the glory in one arc or movie would not hurt the franchise

[sintzu]

You know, people keep comparing Vegeta to Sasuke and the comparison is really shallow. For one, Sasuke was built as Naruto's main rival from the start and the story revolves around their story with the climax being their great battle. Vegeta didn't show up until a third through the manga and is Goku's fifth rival. The rivalry itself is also extremely one-sided since Goku doesn't give a damn about it and doesn't particularly care if Vegeta surpasses him.

And Toyo does the same thing as the anime, only that he inserts Vegeta along with Goku.

And the Cell Saga in general isn't as well-liked in Japan. A lot of the popularity of that arc comes from the international audience.

That's the problem, DB has a great character in Vegeta who not only has the capability of holding his own arc but also has the fans to support him but what do they do ? push him to the side. Vegeta and Sasuke were introduced and written differently but my point still stand that one has lived up to his potential while the other at best gets bones thrown at him. So many writers and companies would do anything for a character like Vegeta yet they're doing nothing with him.

In the manga Vegeta got Black all to himself and played a major role against fused Zamasu while in the anime he was just standing on the sidelines or getting his ass kicked.

Regardless, it's still really popular.

[HeroR]

Vegeta is not a real person, toriyama has not written a main win for him therefore he can't prove himself. The notion that dragonball would be less popular if vegeta killed freeza in Revival F or finished off goku black (if that arc was changed a bit) is utterly ridiculous. Gohan beating cell didn't cause the franchise to collapse, vegeta getting the glory in one arc or movie would not hurt the franchise

He could, but he doesn't want to. Most manga writers don't give the secondary characters the main kill. Gohan doing it was a rare exception in manga and that was mostly because Gohan was going to succeed Goku as the new main character. Not given other characters a turn.

That's the problem, DB has a great character in Vegeta who not only has the capability of holding his own arc but also has the fans to support him but what do they do ? push him to the side. Vegeta and Sasuke were introduced and written differently but my point still stand that one has lived up to his potential while the other at best gets bones thrown at him. So many writers and companies would do anything for a character like Vegeta yet they're doing nothing with him.

In the manga Vegeta got Black all to himself and played a major role against fused Zamasu while in the anime he was just standing on the sidelines or getting his ass kicked.

Regardless, it's still really popular.

I wouldn't call Vegeta great personally and if I was forced to watch an entire arc about him I would probably stop watching and marathon.

Personal preference aside, what makes Vegeta vastly different from Sasuke is that Sasuke is for all practical purposes a co-star to Naruto. The author set them up as rivals, the final battle of the manga, and gave Sasuke his own character arc. That was the way the story of Naruto was set up. Vegeta was a villain who was supposed to die in the arc that introduced him and kept around because fans loved him. Toriyama never planned anything big with Vegeta, he was rival #5. If anything, Gohan is closer to a 'Sasuke' outside of not having a rivalry role.

Vegeta did more in the manga, but he was still second fiddle to Goku who rendered his Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan switch trick moot since Goku had Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It comes off as Vegeta wasting him time. And Black never fighting Goku was really stupid in the manga since Black stole his body and killed that version of Goku, and those two never traded hands.

[Grimlock]

Heroes is throwing shit against the wall and making stuff stick. It even recycle old ideas from across the franchise. And what works in a video game doesn't alway work for an anime or manga, otherwise Hereos would of had its own anime by now. Which is preferable over Super getting suck with Heroes' crap. Super can be its own thing and Heroes can stay its own. No need for the two to meet.

You are missing the point, in no way I said I wanted Heroes stuff to appear in the main series, I said I want the main product to step out of the comfort zone without being afraid, exactly how Heroes does.

Yes, it would have been much better Gogeta than Vegetto in Future Trunks saga. We would lose nothing (well, I would lose Final Kamehameha but okay) if that happened. Vegetto was screwed anyway. So you see, they could have brought lots of different stuff without any harm. To know that it was Toyotaro's idea to give Super Saiyan God to Vegeta and not Toriyama actually makes things worse, it's like that crap old formula will stick into the main product as long as Toriyama keeps himself involved.

[sintzu]

The notion that dragonball would be less popular if vegeta finished off goku black is utterly ridiculous.

If he killed him we wouldn't have gotten fused Zamasu but the anime should've had it be like the manga where Vegeta got to beat Black before fusing with Zamasu. So far the manga is the only thing that's shown to understand Vegeta's potential and I hope it continues.

In Japan which is the only market Toei and Toriyama looks at, Goku has no equal.

However, he has assisted in killing Cell and Buu.

One of the goals of the DB room was to look at what's popular in the international market so they're looking at it. Kai's Buu arc was also produced for that market.

My issues aren't with how he was in the manga, it's modern DB that seems to be wasting him apart from Toyotarou.

Most manga writers don't give the secondary characters the main kill.

Most manga don't have the popularity and recognition to allow them that, DB does.

[Michsi]

Problem is, it's not only that one poll. We had that recent nation wide poll that covered several generations and Goku freakin' dominated most of that too. With such an overwhelming presence in not just the fandom, but entire generations, having him get replaced just doesn't seem worth the risque. They tried that already with Gohan, and Gohan was super popular during Z's run time, and it failed.

Not saying they shouldn't take more risks with ideas, any idea can be successful if done well, but having Goku in the forefront is just the safest bet. It's been said before, DB isn't an ensemble story, it's Goku's story.

[BlueVegerot]

Heroes is throwing shit against the wall and making stuff stick. It even recycle old ideas from across the franchise. And what works in a video game doesn't alway work for an anime or manga, otherwise Hereos would of had its own anime by now. Which is preferable over Super getting suck with Heroes' crap. Super can be its own thing and Heroes can stay its own. No need for the two to meet.

You are missing the point, in no way I said I wanted Heroes stuff to appear in the main series, I said I want the main product to step out of the comfort zone without being afraid, exactly how Heroes does.

Yes, it would have been much better Gogeta than Vegetto in Future Trunks saga. We would lose nothing (well, I would lose Final Kamehameha but okay) if that happened. Vegetto was screwed anyway. So you see, they could have brought lots of different stuff without any harm. To know that it was Toyotaro's idea to give Super Saiyan God to Vegeta and not Toriyama actually makes things worse, it's like that crap old formula will stick into the main product as long as Toriyama keeps himself involved.

This is why I hope that as super progresses or the next sequels come out, toriyama is not involved. There was an interview a few weeks ago with people from toei talking about how they want to do more with characters such as Gohan, Pan and Piccolo among others in Super but Toriyama obviously doesn't care.

[BlueVegerot]

Problem is, it's not only that one poll. We had that recent nation wide poll that covered several generations and Goku freakin' dominated most of that too. With such an overwhelming presence in not just the fandom, but an entire generations, having him get replaced just doesn't seem worth the risque. They tried that already with Gohan, and Gohan was super popular during Z's run time, and it failed.

Not saying they shouldn't take more risks with ideas, any idea can be successful if done well, but having Goku in the forefront is just the safest bet. It's been said before, DB isn't an ensemble story, it's Goku's story.

No one is saying goku shoudn't be the main character or that most arcs shouldn't be centered around him but as I said above, Vegeta or Gohan getting the glory once in a while or beating a main guy/finishing someone off isn't going to harm the franchise. Nobody would drop super if vegeta was the one to have beaten freeza or if trunks had beaten black last arc. Most of the fights/screentime is given to goku anyways so people would tune in regardless

[HeroR]

You are missing the point, in no way I said I wanted Heroes stuff to appear in the main series, I said I want the main product to step out of the comfort zone without being afraid, exactly how Heroes does.

Yes, it would have been much better Gogeta than Vegetto in Future Trunks saga. We would lose nothing (well, I would lose Final Kamehameha but okay) if that happened. Vegetto was screwed anyway. So you see, they could have brought lots of different stuff without any harm. To know that it was Toyotaro's idea to give Super Saiyan God to Vegeta and not Toriyama actually makes things worse, it's like that crap old formula will stick into the main product as long as Toriyama keeps himself involved.

You do want Heroes stuff since you wanted Trunks to become a Time Patrol at the end of the Future Trunks Saga and got upset when that didn't happened. Well, I guess that would technically be Dragon Ball Online, but my point stands.

It really wouldn't since the chances of Vegeta getting the Fusion Dance right his first time makes little sense since even Goten and Trunks mucked it up after they practice it for a day and the Fusion Dance creates a weaker fusion, meaning Merged Zamasu would have probably stomped Gogeta. Even if we ignore that, what different does Gogeta make other than fans just want Gogeta to be 'canon'?

And I don't see how Vegeta getting Super Saiyan God is some mark that Toriyama won't do anything new when he gave Vegeta a more powerful god form at the same time as Goku.

The notion that dragonball would be less popular if vegeta finished off goku black is utterly ridiculous.

If he killed him we wouldn't have gotten fused Zamasu but the anime should've had it be like the manga where Vegeta got to beat Black before fusing with Zamasu. So far the manga is the only thing that's shown to understand Vegeta's potential and I hope it continues.

In Japan which is the only market Toei and Toriyama looks at, Goku has no equal.

However, he has assisted in killing Cell and Buu.

One of the goals of the DB room was to look at what's popular in the international market so they're looking at it. Kai's Buu arc was also produced for that market.

My issues aren't with how he was in the manga, it's modern DB that seems to be wasting him apart from Toyotarou.

Most manga writers don't give the secondary characters the main kill.

Most manga don't have the popularity and recognition to allow them that, DB does.

Most of the international stuff is secondary, just like how Buu Kai was halfass compared to the original Kai, which was already pretty halfass. Also, the Dragon Room would most likely effect spinoffs like the Yamcha series, not Super.

Toyo is also wasting him, Imo, since he still trying to keep the one-sided rivalry between Goku and Vegeta alive. If they really want to evolved Vegeta, they should moved away from that and maybe even give Vegeta his own rival. They were kinda going with that with Vegeta wanting to surpassed Beerus, but he still seemed to be too focus on Goku. Something that Whis says hold him back.

What does popularity have to do with anything?

[perucho1990]

They're too afraid of stepping out of their comfort zone. It seems like they think fans will drop the franchise and it will crash and burn if they make the slightest change to DB's established formula. The last 2 movies and Super have set a very strong and solid foundation for DB to play around with things every now and then like what the original manga did so there's no excuse for it not to.

But it didnt happen when Trunks fought Merged Zamasu while relegating Goku to side character status. A lot japanese fans liked that Trunks chopped Merged Zamasu in 2.