Trunks' Tail???

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:57 pm

Hmmm, it could be, but I like the opposite better. Wouldn't it be awesome to see the Saiyan transformations combined? The golden Ozaru from GT is a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see it with a golden, flaming aura. I'd also like to see a Super Saiyan Ozaru 2, with arcs of energy all over its body. And last but not least: I want to see the Super Saiyan 3 in Ozaru form. Okay, the Ozaru already lost its eyebrows, but it'd still have the huge hair! The Super Saiyan Ozaru 3 is my favorite hypothetical form.

About the facts concerning the tails & SSj: Krillin asks Bulma whether she removed Trunks' tail, which seems to imply that Trunks did have a tail. On the other hand, Toriyama stated in an interview that the tail is a recessive trait. On yet another hand, this was kind of an excuse to cover the fact that he forgot about it. On my left foot, Vegeta says that his tail will grow back, though it never did.
I guess what all this confusion boils down to is that the Saiyans were relieved of their Ozaru transformation along with their 'villain' status after the Freeza saga. Afterall, a mean, raving mammoth-ape wouldn't exactly make a good good guy...

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:29 pm

I don't think of SSJ as a spontaneous mutation, since the traits displayed in ssj and ssj2 are easily explained away by other things (Eyecolor, hair color, hairstanding up, aura, super-tense muscles... you don't necessarily need more than some really crazy special effects for those, even if the body generates them...). But even then, I still think Xyex's theory makes a lot of sense. Granted... I can't decide if I like it or not... but it makes a lot of sense, especially in the context of the series and its themes, and it's not hard to do some tinkering with biology to make it work.

... though yes... various SSJ Oozaru forms are just plain awesome to think about... I should really write more fanfics... XD

<-- too annoyed by all of the graphics tags over the parts of text needing editing to fix at present.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:07 pm

Xyex wrote:And yet not having the tail prevents the Oozaru transformation. So obviously the tail has effects on a Saiya-jins body.

That's because the glands that secrete whatever activates the Oozaru are located in the tail.

The same thing in the tail that enables the Oozaru transformation could also block the SSJ transformation.

I really doubt it. Putting aside for a moment that there's nothing in the universe that can create mass and energy from nothing, gland secretions aren't usually exclusive. Testosterone and adrenaline coexist, after all.

And we don't know what goes on with a Saiya-jins DNA after they obtain Super Saiya-jin. I've always viewed the initial transformation as a spontaneous mutation or evolution. This mutation could then 'over ride' the DNA for the tail. It's not that the DNA isn't there but the DNA for the transformation is recessive to the DNA for the SSJ form. Thus the tail never grows and never has a supressing effect on the SSJ form.

That is not how dominant/recessive works. If the allele for the tail is recessive to the one for SSJ, then ANY Saiyan born with a "Super Saiyan allele" would not have a tail. Thus, the ONLY way for any Saiyan to have a tail would be for him to be double-recessive.

So, if all Saiyans have tails, then all Saiyans are double-recessive and there is no 'Super Saiyan allele' anywhere in the population.

Since Goku and Vegeta both had tails, you're wrong.

Or, maybe you mean one of the recessive alleles suddenly mutates into a dominant SSJ allele. That's nice, except one cell randomly mutating does not affect all the trillions of other cells (if it did, cancer would mean that the whole person is turned into a tumor).

So, you need pretty much every cell in the body to suddenly make the same mutation, and whatever organ or gland controls SSJ to then appear from nowhere, and for this insanely unlikely mutation to then be reproducible in every surviving member of the species, regardless of environmental conditions or anything else...

In which case, you're still wrong.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:13 pm

That's because the glands that secrete whatever activates the Oozaru are located in the tail.

And those same hormones/chemicals/whatever could also be inhibitors of the SSJ transformation.

I really doubt it. Putting aside for a moment that there's nothing in the universe that can create mass and energy from nothing, gland secretions aren't usually exclusive. Testosterone and adrenaline coexist, after all.

There are things out there which enable A while inhibiting B. All I'm suggesting is that the Oozaru secretions are once such thing.

That is not how dominant/recessive works. If the allele for the tail is recessive to the one for SSJ, then ANY Saiyan born with a "Super Saiyan allele" would not have a tail. Thus, the ONLY way for any Saiyan to have a tail would be for him to be double-recessive.

Nnnn, I'm not explaining right...

I'm saying that the tail is recessive to an active Super Saiya-jin. When what enables Super Saiya-jin gets switched on the body undergoes a minor alteration in which the SSJ gene takes dominance over the Oozar/tail gene. We already know the Saiya-jin body is cappable of sudden mutation throughout the entire body as this happens with the Oozaru transformation. This is just a much smaller scale shifting.

(if it did, cancer would mean that the whole person is turned into a tumor).

Tell that to the Oozaru.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:49 pm

Xyex wrote:Nnnn, I'm not explaining right...

I'm saying that the tail is recessive to an active Super Saiya-jin. When what enables Super Saiya-jin gets switched on the body undergoes a minor alteration in which the SSJ gene takes dominance over the Oozar/tail gene. We already know the Saiya-jin body is cappable of sudden mutation throughout the entire body as this happens with the Oozaru transformation. This is just a much smaller scale shifting.

I'm almost certain that this is more technobabble that I'm just not knowledgeable enough about biology to know what's wrong with it. Therefore, I will stand opposed to you on principle.

(if it did, cancer would mean that the whole person is turned into a tumor).
Tell that to the Oozaru.

Oozaru already violates the basic laws that govern the entire universe. Biological laws are small fry.

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:40 am

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but didn't Vegeta say when he first started talking about the possibility of Super Saiyan that the last one that had appeared 1000 years earlier could only achieve that transformation while in the Oozaru state? I seem to remember some scene where he was imagining an Oozaru Super Saiyan, at least. I just flipped around that area of the manga and couldn't find anything, though, so maybe it was anime only (or maybe even dub only? Yikes....) Anyway, there seems to be an implication that it's possible to have both at the same time.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:55 am

There's a scene of a golden Oozaru, but that's anime only.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:08 am

Indeed, though we only see it in the shadows of the planet it's about to die on, it clearly has the same traits as the GT version Goku and Vegeta go through (gold fur, unlimited power). As Thanos mentioned, anime-only, that's why ya' won't find it in any Namek arc manga. This leaves me with the impression that you can still become a Super Saiyan if you have a tail, however if there's a full planet in the atmosphere of the planet the Saiyan's on and the Super Saiyan is advanced enough, it's possible to go Golden Great Ape through massive Bruitz Wave absorption. This could've happened to Broli in movie 8, since there was a full planet in orbit of New Vegeta, but he apparently had his tail removed and the feature itself is non-canon; so I digress.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:20 pm

I still don't remember ever seeing any actual gold fur on that Oozaru. I saw an outline of light from the light source behind it, but that was no indication of its fur color. And it doesn't really matter anyway. To Namek saga Vegeta hearing great power + transformation = Oozaru. It's the only transformation he knew Saiya-jins had. Hence the scene in the anime.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:57 pm

Funniest part about that though is that in the manga, The Oozaru image wasn't present in Vegeta's description of the Super Saiyan. There's actually no indication that an Oozaru with Golden fur was the original form of Super Saiyan.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:14 pm

O.O.

Oozaru: Um. Uh. They. Eat... Cosmic ... rays... and... umm... Hulk... and... gravity... and... rocks... and... BROLI SMASH!

In theory, we wouldn't have to have a full on mutation for the whole SSJ / tail thing to be transmitted; it could just alter some hormones or something that could make the gametes turn out differently or something. Wait, I thought I didn't like that explanation...

*dies*

Meep...