Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[wolflonnie]

Great showing for Gohan. He's definitely SSG levels.
I'm really confused for Android 17, he always fights with Android 18, and he always seems on pair with her.
Either she powered up a lot (between SSJ2 and SSJ3, so to say), or Android 17's power was a bit retconnected (SSJ3 levels, like in the manga). Or both things.
Perhaps Toriyama didn't have a clear idea of Android 17's power until recently? So Toei originally thought he was SSB levels, then Toriyama cleared the misconception?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Great showing for Gohan. He's definitely SSG levels.
I'm really confused for Android 17, he always fights with Android 18, and he always seems on pair with her.
Either she powered up a lot (between SSJ2 and SSJ3, so to say), or Android 17's power was a bit retconnected (SSJ3 levels, like in the manga). Or both things.
Perhaps Toriyama didn't have a clear idea of Android 17's power until recently? So Toei originally thought he was SSB levels, then Toriyama cleared the misconception?

I don't think it's a power thing, just that the combat direction makes the Androids the ultimate tag team, brother and sister.

So they'll fight relatively similar.

[Issei189]

Neither Toppo nor Goku got the opportunity to go all out in their battle in episode 82, and judging by how the Grand Priest split up the match because one of them could end up being killed, I think its more than safe to assume that Toppo is more powerful than Goku as SSB, though I think it is a bit more up in the air if he would be truly able to defeat SSB KK Goku.

You have a point. I guess We should wait and see

[Bullza]

I got a bit more time now so here's a few more things for me to point out.

- If it took both #17 and #18 to beat Viara would we think that Viara would have been able to beat both individually? Is a Super Saiyan 3 Tier fighter?

- The three individual robots look like they're just Base Tier. Maybe a bit above at best. Other episodes seem to suggest that too.

- Koichiarator....they say his functions are at 1,256%. Does that mean he's 12.5x as strong as the individual robots? That wouldn't seem to fit with them being Base Tier then so I don't know how that works.

- It definitely doesn't look like Blue Goku and Vegeta went full power on it. Makes sense if they were saving their energy.

- And then yeah it looks like Koichiarator is on the same level as Pirina. I can't tell if he'd be above or below that level but around it at least.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I got a bit more time now so here's a few more things for me to point out.

- If it took both #17 and #18 to beat Viara would we think that Viara would have been able to beat both individually? Is a Super Saiyan 3 Tier fighter?

- The three individual robots look like they're just Base Tier. Maybe a bit above at best. Other episodes seem to suggest that too.

- Koichiarator....they say his functions are at 1,256%. Does that mean he's 12.5x as strong as the individual robots? That wouldn't seem to fit with them being Base Tier then so I don't know how that works.

- It definitely doesn't look like Blue Goku and Vegeta went full power on it. Makes sense if they were saving their energy.

- And then yeah it looks like Koichiarator is on the same level as Pirina. I can't tell if he'd be above or below that level but around it at least.

Viara was pointed out to have much stronger defenses, sort've like a subdued version of Magetta.

Also, try not to apply power levels too much in a fight where fighting ability is being applied, odd as that may sound. The episode made sure to point out how the robots were adapting to the movement patterns of Universe 7's warriors, and in turn Ultimate Gohan did the same.

As for Koichiarator, it's more than likely just meaning that he's overclocked his systems to 1256% their normal capacity, it's not necessarily correlated with linear power scaling. The merging itself is what seems to have provided most of the power, much like how Super Sentai robots are much greater than the sum of their parts.

Also, just a note, but I HATE the use of "[X] Tier". I find the usage misleading, inaccurate, and overall ineffective in determining the proper context, since "[X] Tier" falls apart completely as soon as one points out that fighting well doesn't correlate to equivalent power levels.

[Helios518]

- Koichiarator....they say his functions are at 1,256%. Does that mean he's 12.5x as strong as the individual robots? That wouldn't seem to fit with them being Base Tier then so I don't know how that works.

I doubt that was supposed to be taken as a power scale statement.

[dragon boss z]

True Golden Freeza is equal to Current SSB Goku and Toppo at full power is stronger than a current SSB. Your power levels are all wrong especially with Hit.

This is never stated. Toppo was losing to SSB Goku in the anime and in the manga he said if he didn't knock Goku out of the ring right away he could of lost. And Hit was shown to actually be physically weaker than SSB Goku in the U6 arc. It was specifically stated he only was so difficult because his technique. Power wise he is right under SSB or at best equal.

Toppo in the Anime was holding back against SSB Goku though. He started to power up after that Kamehameha and Goku in response turned on KK, so I'd say Toppo ( Full power) = SSB Goku

https://i.gyazo.com/511e8042a9bf177b2c0 ... 780825.gif

The thing is we don't actually see them fight. I just consider him about SSB level. I feel like he will end up fighting Frieza and losing.

[Miracles]

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.
Golden Freeza and Blue Goku are equal. They both KO'd each other.
Gohan been Blue level when he fought Blue Goku equally. The narrator confirms this when he states Gohan "rivaled" Goku.
And Zamasu Blue level? In both the anime and manga Zamasu couldn't beat SSJ Trunks. Every time Blue Goku hit him they said his immortality saved him. Implying that he died from the blows.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Here's how I'd estimate the climax of 120 to be, in terms of power levels.

Ultimate Gohan: 4
Blue Goku: 6
Blue Vegeta: 6
Koichiarator: 10
Blue Goku (uncharged Kamehameha): 15
Blue Vegeta (uncharged Galick Gun): 15
Galick Kamehameha: 30
Koichiarator (beam): 30
Ultimate Gohan (charged Kamehameha): 20

[Noah]

Ultimate Gohan (charged Kamehameha): 20

What? You can't have Gohan stronger than Whis! It doesn't make any sense!

[dragon boss z]

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

The manga toppo battles CSSB, the one that was on par with merged zamasu. So yes, in the manga, toppo is above regular ssb level.

[dragon boss z]

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

The manga toppo battles CSSB, the one that was on par with merged zamasu. So yes, in the manga, toppo is above regular ssb level.

There is no CSSB in the anime so that isn't really fair. The anime and the manga are different. And CSSB isn't supposed to really be stronger than Blue, it just allows full access to Blue's power. This problem doesn't exist in the anime though. I assume Golden Frieza will be equal with CSSB when he is introduced as well.

[JazzMazz]

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

As I've said previously, neither Toppo nor Goku got the opportunity to go all out in their battle in episode 82, and judging by how the Grand Priest split up the match because one of them could end up being killed, I think its more than safe to assume that Toppo is more powerful than Goku as SSB, though I think it is a bit more up in the air if he would be truly able to defeat SSB KK Goku.

I think leaving it there is a good idea. Either way, in both the anime and manga, Toppo is an opponent that is supposed to be close or equal to Goku in terms of raw power in order to demonstrate how much of a threat Jiren will be.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

The manga toppo battles CSSB, the one that was on par with merged zamasu. So yes, in the manga, toppo is above regular ssb level.

There is no CSSB in the anime so that isn't really fair. The anime and the manga are different. And CSSB isn't supposed to really be stronger than Blue, it just allows full access to Blue's power. This problem doesn't exist in the anime though. I assume Golden Frieza will be equal with CSSB when he is introduced as well.

There is a difference in power. The fact that it allows goku to fight merged zamasu on even terms says a lot. Goku had to bust kaioken and break his arms just to break merged zamasus halo in the anime. CSSB is like the manga counterpart of kaioken.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yeah, Gohan asked Goku to go all out. He then proceeded to trade punches with him.

Gohan also absolutely did damage to Koichiarator; his Kamehameha broke the robot's hands! Koichiarator also tied Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta simultaneously in a beam struggle, indicating that it's meant to be stronger than either individually. Goku using God against Aniraza in 121 isn't necessarily evidence of Goku holding back here since Vegeta's using Super Saiyan. Seems like Aniraza beats them up so badly that they don't have the stamina for their higher forms.

And swapping punches means what? Kale crossed the Goku SSB's Kamehameha without any damage and grabbed him. yet she was much inferior (Goku was holding back).

Koichiarator enduring an energy dispute with Goku and Vegeta SSB does not indicate that he is at that level. The two Saiyans were only gaining time for Gohan to accumulate Ki (Gohan could spend, Goku and Vegeta were saving energy).

And Gohan himself indicated that Goku / Vegeta was stronger than him by wanting them to save energy to face U11 (while Gohan himself was spending)

Except we know for a fact that Goku was suppressed against Kale. Nothing of the sort for Gohan and the narrator flat out saying that Goku and Gohan were near equals solidifies it .

Thats flat out denial. Koichiarator cancelled out a kamehaneha AND Galick Gun from Blue Goku and Vegeta. How that makes the robots much weaker than the Saiyans I have no idea.

No shit Gohan is weaker than them. The argument is that Ultimate Gohan is near SSB Goku and Vegeta in strength and this episode backs that up.

The narrator said that Gohan's power rivaled that of Goku, and this actually happened in the fight between Gohan and Goku SSJ2, not with Goku Blue (punching him with him did not last 5 seconds).
The narrator also said that Goku defeated Freeza and managed to recruit him on EP 96. But did this happen? No, the two draw and even Beerus says so.

Koichiarator blocked Ki attacks from a heavily suppressed Goku and Vegeta SSB. After all, neither wanted to expend energy, they were sparing energy to fight Jiren.
That is why the plan was for Gohan to accumulate Ki and hit the robot with a Kamehameha in total power (because he could expend energy)

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.
Golden Freeza and Blue Goku are equal. They both KO'd each other.
Gohan been Blue level when he fought Blue Goku equally. The narrator confirms this when he states Gohan "rivaled" Goku.
And Zamasu Blue level? In both the anime and manga Zamasu couldn't beat SSJ Trunks. Every time Blue Goku hit him they said his immortality saved him. Implying that he died from the blows.

Goku just said he wanted to show Toppo what was going on when he went beyond his limits. It does not exactly mean that Toppo was superior to Goku SSB.
Anyway, claim that Toppo> Goku SSB means that Vegeta SSB> Goku SSB as well.

The narrator said that Gohan's power rivaled that of Goku, and this actually happened in the fight between Gohan and Goku SSJ2, not with Goku Blue (punching him with him did not last 5 seconds).
The narrator also said that Goku defeated Freeza and managed to recruit him on EP 96. But did this happen? No, the two drew and even Beerus says so.

[SuperDragoon]

And swapping punches means what? Kale crossed the Goku SSB's Kamehameha without any damage and grabbed him. yet she was much inferior (Goku was holding back).

Koichiarator enduring an energy dispute with Goku and Vegeta SSB does not indicate that he is at that level. The two Saiyans were only gaining time for Gohan to accumulate Ki (Gohan could spend, Goku and Vegeta were saving energy).

And Gohan himself indicated that Goku / Vegeta was stronger than him by wanting them to save energy to face U11 (while Gohan himself was spending)

Except we know for a fact that Goku was suppressed against Kale. Nothing of the sort for Gohan and the narrator flat out saying that Goku and Gohan were near equals solidifies it .

Thats flat out denial. Koichiarator cancelled out a kamehaneha AND Galick Gun from Blue Goku and Vegeta. How that makes the robots much weaker than the Saiyans I have no idea.

No shit Gohan is weaker than them. The argument is that Ultimate Gohan is near SSB Goku and Vegeta in strength and this episode backs that up.

The narrator said that Gohan's power rivaled that of Goku, and this actually happened in the fight between Gohan and Goku SSJ2, not with Goku Blue (punching him with him did not last 5 seconds).
The narrator also said that Goku defeated Freeza and managed to recruit him on EP 96. But did this happen? No, the two draw and even Beerus says so.

Koichiarator blocked Ki attacks from a heavily suppressed Goku and Vegeta SSB. After all, neither wanted to expend energy, they were sparing energy to fight Jiren.
That is why the plan was for Gohan to accumulate Ki and hit the robot with a Kamehameha in total power (because he could expend energy)

Nope. The narrator saying Gohan rivaled Goku was said over Gohan fighting SSB Goku. And Goku DID defeat Freeza. It was a double knockout. They beat each other.

No evidence in the episode showed that Goku and Vegeta were surpressed. Saving energy isn't even implied since Goku stated that he was regaining his ki back while Gohan fought Kochiarator on his own. Nowhere is it implied during the fight that Goku and Vegeta were secretly dozens of times stronger than Gohan or Kochiarator. Otherwise Goku would not have used Blue then.

[JazzMazz]

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.
Golden Freeza and Blue Goku are equal. They both KO'd each other.
Gohan been Blue level when he fought Blue Goku equally. The narrator confirms this when he states Gohan "rivaled" Goku.
And Zamasu Blue level? In both the anime and manga Zamasu couldn't beat SSJ Trunks. Every time Blue Goku hit him they said his immortality saved him. Implying that he died from the blows.

Goku just said he wanted to show Toppo what was going on when he went beyond his limits. It does not exactly mean that Toppo was superior to Goku SSB.
Anyway, claim that Toppo> Goku SSB means that Vegeta SSB> Goku SSB as well.

As I've previously, neither Toppo nor Goku got the opportunity to go all out in their battle in episode 82, and judging by how the Grand Priest split up the match because one of them could end up being killed, I think its more than safe to assume that Toppo is more powerful than Goku as SSB, though I think it is a bit more up in the air if he would be truly able to defeat or even match SSB KK Goku.

Also, I think its pretty safe to assume that Vegeta SSB is more powerful than Goku's SSB currently. After all, it was never truly clarified that the gap that Vegeta created in episode 63 was ever truly closed.

Except we know for a fact that Goku was suppressed against Kale. Nothing of the sort for Gohan and the narrator flat out saying that Goku and Gohan were near equals solidifies it .

Thats flat out denial. Koichiarator cancelled out a kamehaneha AND Galick Gun from Blue Goku and Vegeta. How that makes the robots much weaker than the Saiyans I have no idea.

No shit Gohan is weaker than them. The argument is that Ultimate Gohan is near SSB Goku and Vegeta in strength and this episode backs that up.

The narrator said that Gohan's power rivaled that of Goku, and this actually happened in the fight between Gohan and Goku SSJ2, not with Goku Blue (punching him with him did not last 5 seconds).
The narrator also said that Goku defeated Freeza and managed to recruit him on EP 96. But did this happen? No, the two draw and even Beerus says so.

Koichiarator blocked Ki attacks from a heavily suppressed Goku and Vegeta SSB. After all, neither wanted to expend energy, they were sparing energy to fight Jiren.
That is why the plan was for Gohan to accumulate Ki and hit the robot with a Kamehameha in total power (because he could expend energy)

Nope. The narrator saying Gohan rivaled Goku was said over Gohan fighting SSB Goku. And Goku DID defeat Freeza. It was a double knockout. They beat each other.

No evidence in the episode showed that Goku and Vegeta were surpressed. Saving energy isn't even implied since Goku stated that he was regaining his ki back while Gohan fought Kochiarator on his own. Nowhere is it implied during the fight that Goku and Vegeta were secretly dozens of times stronger than Gohan or Kochiarator. Otherwise Goku would not have used Blue then.

I think your missing his point, his saying that the narrator for the next episode can sometimes twist what actually happened in the previous episode and can be unreliable to point to as 100% evidence of such things.

Also, I think it pretty obvious that they weren't over exerting themselves to defeat Kochiarator, after all, there was plan was to distract him long enough for Gohan to gather enough energy to defeat the robot. Using Blue was the best way to get his attention, after all, that is there most easily attainable and accessable powered up state, and they were simply using it to distract Kochiarator away from Gohan. That was literally the entire purpose of the fight, to distract the big bad long enough for Gohan to beat Kochiarator, so they wouldn't need to, in order to conserve some stamina for the big showdown with universe 11.

[dragon boss z]

Toppo was powering up after tanking the Blue Kamehameha, Goku was powering up Kaioken Blue. Serious Toppo is above Blue level. This is obvious.

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

As I've said previously, neither Toppo nor Goku got the opportunity to go all out in their battle in episode 82, and judging by how the Grand Priest split up the match because one of them could end up being killed, I think its more than safe to assume that Toppo is more powerful than Goku as SSB, though I think it is a bit more up in the air if he would be truly able to defeat SSB KK Goku.

I think leaving it there is a good idea. Either way, in both the anime and manga, Toppo is an opponent that is supposed to be close or equal to Goku in terms of raw power in order to demonstrate how much of a threat Jiren will be.

I know that, which is why I said it isn't obvious. I'm not saying how strong Toppo is I'm saying it isn't obvious he is above SSB level. He even fought SSB Vegeta in the ToP already and they seemed about even.

There is a difference in power. The fact that it allows goku to fight merged zamasu on even terms says a lot. Goku had to bust kaioken and break his arms just to break merged zamasus halo in the anime. CSSB is like the manga counterpart of kaioken.

Yes I know, but in the manga Vegeta attains it as well but in the anime he doesn't have kaioken. According to Toriyama's original script fused Zamasu was never supposed to be that far above SSB level.
I'm assuming the manga is going to have Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, and Toppo all be around the same level.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

As I've said previously, neither Toppo nor Goku got the opportunity to go all out in their battle in episode 82, and judging by how the Grand Priest split up the match because one of them could end up being killed, I think its more than safe to assume that Toppo is more powerful than Goku as SSB, though I think it is a bit more up in the air if he would be truly able to defeat SSB KK Goku.

I think leaving it there is a good idea. Either way, in both the anime and manga, Toppo is an opponent that is supposed to be close or equal to Goku in terms of raw power in order to demonstrate how much of a threat Jiren will be.

I know that, which is why I said it isn't obvious. I'm not saying how strong Toppo is I'm saying it isn't obvious he is above SSB level. He even fought SSB Vegeta in the ToP already and they seemed about even.

There is a difference in power. The fact that it allows goku to fight merged zamasu on even terms says a lot. Goku had to bust kaioken and break his arms just to break merged zamasus halo in the anime. CSSB is like the manga counterpart of kaioken.

Yes I know, but in the manga Vegeta attains it as well but in the anime he doesn't have kaioken. According to Toriyama's original script fused Zamasu was never supposed to be that far above SSB level.
I'm assuming the manga is going to have Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, and Toppo all be around the same level.

Good thing toriyamas original script didnt make it, otherwise we only would have had a ssb level merged zamasu and no vegito.

Well, the manga making every major player merged zamasu level really underwhelms what Merged zamasu stood for (forcing vegeta and goku to fuse, allowing them to achieve a higher evolution of ssb). But if thats what toyotaro wants, i cant stop him.