How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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JazzMazz
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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:02 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: First, no he hasn't. Hit and Goku's last interaction is as follows. "Hit, if you make it to the finals, lets settle this thing between you and I." That doesn't sound settled to me. Also Goku and Vegeta haven't had that much of an emotional response because they are planning to revive universe 6 if they win. This is desire has been demonstrated by both Vegeta and Goku on seperate occassions. The first of which was in 112 by Vegeta and the second by Goku in 114 when he says "lets do this again after the tournament of power."

The entire point I'm trying to make is how Goku and Vegeta would be emotionally effected when they find out they can't revive the other universes, and they really did just permanently erase them from existence. That could create some form of character drama and could actually tie into an idea that was presented when Goku fought Uub, that Piccolo hadn't seen Goku be this happy in a long time, which they could explain away as Goku being upset after the events of the tournament of power.
Goku is always eager to fight people, so his interaction with Hit doesn't really say, 'we have unfinished business'. More, 'let have a fight again'. Vegeta had an emotional response to U6 being erased despite his plan to bring them back. And who says Goku plans to bring them back, especially when Goku outright said in 109 that he doesn't know what he would wished for, after several universes got erased.

I don't think they will have a huge emotional effect, except for Vegeta being more annoyed then usual. And Goku was happy at the EOZ because he was bored.
But Hit and Goku literally do have unfinished business, or are you forgetting that Hit literally is on contract to kill Goku?

Goku's motivations could have easily changed after 109. Thats made obvious by his remark to the Saiyan Girls 5 episodes lates.

I'm saying, them not being brought could and should be played for some sort of immediate and decently long lasting emotional response. Also, I think them not being brought back would line up with the idea that Goku is bored in EOZ, because he literally erased everyone he could fight.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by HeroR » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:05 am

JazzMazz wrote: But Hit and Goku literally do have unfinished business, or are you forgetting that Hit literally is on contract to kill Goku?

Goku's motivations could have easily changed after 109. Thats made obvious by his remark to the Saiyan Girls 5 episodes lates.

I'm saying, them not being brought could and should be played for some sort of immediate and decently long lasting emotional response. Also, I think them not being brought back would line up with the idea that Goku is bored in EOZ, because he literally erased everyone he could fight.
Hit and Goku has about as much as unfinished business as Goku and Vegeta who never really got their rematch, yet Goku doesn't care about that after he surpassed Vegeta. I also didn't forget, I just don't think Goku will see it as worthwhile anymore after facing Jiren.

Why would his motive change after 109, he knew good and well before than that universes would be erased before then? Not sure what suddenly changed his mind between now and then, especially when he humored about wishing to meet a strong person.

And thinking that anyone in this show can show a decently long lasting emotional response, especially Goku, is highly flawed. This guy didn't show a 'decently long lasting emotional response' when his friends were killed by the Saiyans while everyone else did, and knew some of those people since his childhood. The other characters don't know the other universes so while they maybe sad for a moment, they would count their blessings that they live and move on.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:25 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: But Hit and Goku literally do have unfinished business, or are you forgetting that Hit literally is on contract to kill Goku?

Goku's motivations could have easily changed after 109. Thats made obvious by his remark to the Saiyan Girls 5 episodes lates.

I'm saying, them not being brought could and should be played for some sort of immediate and decently long lasting emotional response. Also, I think them not being brought back would line up with the idea that Goku is bored in EOZ, because he literally erased everyone he could fight.
Hit and Goku has about as much as unfinished business as Goku and Vegeta who never really got their rematch, yet Goku doesn't care about that after he surpassed Vegeta. I also didn't forget, I just don't think Goku will see it as worthwhile anymore after facing Jiren.

Why would his motive change after 109, he knew good and well before than that universes would be erased before then? Not sure what suddenly changed his mind between now and then, especially when he humored about wishing to meet a strong person.

And thinking that anyone in this show can show a decently long lasting emotional response, especially Goku, is highly flawed. This guy didn't show a 'decently long lasting emotional response' when his friends were killed by the Saiyans while everyone else did, and knew some of those people since his childhood. The other characters don't know the other universes so while they maybe sad for a moment, they would count their blessings that they live and move on.
I think your missing the point of what I'm trying to say, also, Vegeta and Goku settled their real beef with one another way back in the Buu arc. Hit and Goku didn't, the note they leave their interactions on is "lets finish this sometime".

Well, lots of crap happened since 109, Hit was eliminated, Goku fought Jiren, Goku talked to Vegeta in 112 and realized what Vegeta's wish was, and he fought the Saiyan Girls, which he tried to end the fight on the note he was going to fight them again sometime.

Maybe I'm projecting what I want to happen onto the series, but I would be extremely surprised that if they really weren't able to revive the other universes, that they would have no sort of emotional response, espicially since they were the ones that inadvertently destroyed those universes. I think literally erasing universes using your own power, and not being able to revive them, is far more impactful than simply not making it in time, and having the guy who killed your friends there to beat.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by HeroR » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:41 am

JazzMazz wrote: I think your missing the point of what I'm trying to say, also, Vegeta and Goku settled their real beef with one another way back in the Buu arc. Hit and Goku didn't, the note they leave their interactions on is "lets finish this sometime".

Well, lots of crap happened since 109, Hit was eliminated, Goku fought Jiren, Goku talked to Vegeta in 112 and realized what Vegeta's wish was, and he fought the Saiyan Girls, which he tried to end the fight on the note he was going to fight them again sometime.

Maybe I'm projecting what I want to happen onto the series, but I would be extremely surprised that if they really weren't able to revive the other universes, that they would have no sort of emotional response, espicially since they were the ones that inadvertently destroyed those universes. I think literally erasing universes using your own power, and not being able to revive them, is far more impactful than simply not making it in time, and having the guy who killed your friends there to beat.
Vegeta settled his beef with Goku in the Buu Saga. Goku himself stopped caring in the Freeza Saga and Goku never mentioned Hit again after he got knockout. Once Goku surpassing someone, he more or less loses interest in them.

Goku was fully aware going in if he won, Hit would have to be eliminated, either by him or someone else. Which is why he even said, 'you're still around, let's fight' in 104. Not sure why you think Goku didn't realized this before talking to Vegeta in 112.

They would probably have an emotion response, just not a 'decently long lasting emotional response'. The closest we ever got to that was in the Saiyan Saga where most of the cast was broke over the deaths of the Z-Fighters with no way to bring them back, to their knowledge at the time. But Goku himself was more ho hum. He expressed his grief by beating the shit out of Nappa and then he was more or less over it. The closest Goku ever really gotten to 'decently long lasting emotional response' was Krillin's deaths, which again his reaction was anger.

I also don't think they would be that broken us since the fact remains, they were going to survived or they would be erased. Most of the Z-Fighters are not going to feel guilty for choosing their universe over some random universe that most of them just met. Also, no one but Vegeta said anything about bringing anyone back, so you don't even know if anyone in U7 planned to bring the erased universes back. 17 wants a boat and then said he was going to give it to Goku. 18 wants money. Gohan is a guess, but people just assumed he would want to wish anyone back because 'he's a nice guy'. Piccolo doesn't care and had no problem fighting his kinsmen. Roshi hasn't expressed any care. Freeza is Frieeza. Goku is wishy-washy. Tien nor Krillin expressed no real desired to wish anyone back. I mean, it really is just Vegeta and it's only for U6, and it's because he wants to see the Saiyan homeworld.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by Michie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:56 pm

No one ever dies in One Piece and that series doesn't suffer for it. There are other ways to create stakes then death. I would be really depressed if no one came back.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:02 pm

Michie wrote:No one ever dies in One Piece and that series doesn't suffer for it. There are other ways to create stakes then death. I would be really depressed if no one came back.
But, the scenes where people do die are considered the best parts of One Piece and lead to the most growth from the characters.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by HeroR » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:00 pm

Michie wrote:No one ever dies in One Piece and that series doesn't suffer for it. There are other ways to create stakes then death. I would be really depressed if no one came back.
Ace and Whitebeard died in One Piece and is considered the high point of the series. Not to mention all the people who die in flashbacks.

The series does suffers from the lack of real time death since any heroic sacrifice is scoffed at. I mean, Pell is still brought up as a mocking point.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by Artorias » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:01 pm

It depends on how they handled it.

If it ends up being like the FT arc, where the writers present us with a dark ending in concept, yet everyone on U7 is just all smiles for some reason, with no regard for the TRILLIONS of lives that were just lost, then yeah I would have a major problem with that. Because it will end up making literally EVERY hero that we're supposed to root for seem like completely immoral monsters. If they DO go that route, they absolutely MUST acknowledge how fucked up what just occurred is, and there can't be this weird disconnect between what's actually happening in the story vs how the characters are reacting.
Michsi wrote:Legitimacy disappointed, I'd say. When people express a desire for the show to regain some of it's seriousness, I'm pretty sure this is not what the majority mean. It'd depend on how they all act afterward, but I'd have a hard time looking at the main cast with the same eyes again. I think they might be taking the "they're not heroes" bit a little too far then.
Exactly. I think this would be WAY too dark, as if the FT arc hadn't already crossed that line. It all depends on how our heroes react. If they all just go "Welp, job well done guys, let's all go to Bulma's for a party!", then I think that will do IRREPARABLE damage to the characterization of the main cast moving forward. Toei/Toriyama have never had as much potential to completely tarnish their characters in well fell swoop as they do right now. Let's pray that they learned their lesson from the FT arc.

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Re: How would you feel if the erased universes/fighters are NOT brought back?

Post by Tombstone1988 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:57 pm

Artorias wrote:It depends on how they handled it.

If it ends up being like the FT arc, where the writers present us with a dark ending in concept, yet everyone on U7 is just all smiles for some reason, with no regard for the TRILLIONS of lives that were just lost, then yeah I would have a major problem with that. Because it will end up making literally EVERY hero that we're supposed to root for seem like completely immoral monsters. If they DO go that route, they absolutely MUST acknowledge how fucked up what just occurred is, and there can't be this weird disconnect between what's actually happening in the story vs how the characters are reacting.
I was about to write a comment about how it all depends on the execution, but your post here basically summarizes my thoughts perfectly.
"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

-Adam from YourMovieSucksDOTorg
(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

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