Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Seems in NEP, Goku is using ssg vs a stronger Aniraza. So I doubt the fused bots r ssj blue level. At best they are ssg, meaning so is Ultimate Gohan.

It is very confusing with all these inconsistent showings.

[JazzMazz]

Seems in NEP, Goku is using ssg vs a stronger Aniraza. So I doubt the fused bots r ssj blue level. At best they are ssg, meaning so is Ultimate Gohan.

It is very confusing with all these inconsistent showings.

Also from the preview, it seems that Aniraza is going to crush SSG Goku in a single blow, based off how his twitching in a crater.

[buutenks]

Also from the preview, it seems that Aniraza is going to crush SSG Goku in a single blow, based off how his twitching in a crater.

Seems to me like he took an explosion, hence the yamcha reference.

We will see next ep.

[JazzMazz]

Also from the preview, it seems that Aniraza is going to crush SSG Goku in a single blow, based off how his twitching in a crater.

Seems to me like he took an explosion, hence the yamcha reference.

We will see next ep.

But, his not in a Yamcha pose at all.

His clearly blocking.

I'm saying it looks like his going to crushed in a blow, due to how much of the preview involved him punching the ground.

[Hugo Boss]

Seems in NEP, Goku is using ssg vs a stronger Aniraza. So I doubt the fused bots r ssj blue level. At best they are ssg, meaning so is Ultimate Gohan.

It is very confusing with all these inconsistent showings.

Also from the preview, it seems that Aniraza is going to crush SSG Goku in a single blow, based off how his twitching in a crater.

Definetely, it looks like the group will have some trouble, but without the full context it’s very difficult to tell how strong this new character is.

[buutenks]

Well either way, since koichiarator(why didnt they name it, koichinator? lol) is in the ssj blue ball park, Aniraza should definitely be atleast FP Blue if not kk level.

[Hugo Boss]

Well either way, since koichiarator(why didnt they name it, koichinator? lol) is in the ssj blue ball park, Aniraza should definitely be atleast FP Blue if not kk level.

I’m not sure about it. Gohan implied saving Goku and Vegeta for later was the best plan, so I think Gohan himself can be at a level below SSB, much like Cabba was in relation to Kale and Caulifla. Let’s wait and see.

[Miracles]

It is not obvious. Goku powering up to kaioken doesn't mean Toppo is above SSB level, it could just mean he is equal so Goku went one step up to be above him. Not to mention the manga has Toppo pretty much say he wasn't sure if he could actually beat SSB. The only think that is obvious at this point is Toppo is SSB level, and the most likely thing that will happen to him is him losing to either SSB Vegeta or Golden Frieza at this point. My money is on him losing to Golden Frieza as I think Vegeta is going to go down to Jiren.

Toppo, holding back, tanked a Super Blue Kamehameha at point blank. He took no damage but was only annoyed at his costume being ripped. Beerus even thought Goku killed Toppo with that attack.
Toppo begins to power up, Goku says I'll show you what it looks like "when I surpass my limits." He stated this while in Blue, meaning he went above blue, powering up with Kaioken. The Grand priest even knew that ONE of them might kill each other. He didn't say Goku was going to kill Toppo. Toppo in the manga fought MSSB, the one who fought a fused character "toe-to-toe" and is at a level where he could use "Hakai." A Toppo holding back was fighting Blue Vegeta in the TOP too. Toppo is above SSB.

Goku just said he wanted to show Toppo what was going on when he went beyond his limits. It does not exactly mean that Toppo was superior to Goku SSB.
Anyway, claim that Toppo> Goku SSB means that Vegeta SSB> Goku SSB as well.

The narrator said that Gohan's power rivaled that of Goku, and this actually happened in the fight between Gohan and Goku SSJ2, not with Goku Blue (punching him with him did not last 5 seconds).
The narrator also said that Goku defeated Freeza and managed to recruit him on EP 96. But did this happen? No, the two drew and even Beerus says so.

Except the narrator is proven correct when we see Gohan say he is using full power to fight Blue Goku and trades blows with Blue Goku and knocking Blue Goku back.
As for Toppo being above Blue...See above.

[dragon boss z]

Toppo, holding back, tanked a Super Blue Kamehameha at point blank. He took no damage but was only annoyed at his costume being ripped. Beerus even thought Goku killed Toppo with that attack.
Toppo begins to power up, Goku says I'll show you what it looks like "when I surpass my limits." He stated this while in Blue, meaning he went above blue, powering up with Kaioken. The Grand priest even knew that ONE of them might kill each other. He didn't say Goku was going to kill Toppo. Toppo in the manga fought MSSB, the one who fought a fused character "toe-to-toe" and is at a level where he could use "Hakai." A Toppo holding back was fighting Blue Vegeta in the TOP too. Toppo is above SSB.

Literally nobody as taken real damage in this arc. Kale walked through a SSB kamehameha, people were saying she was above Blue level because of that, and I said no wait until more comes out Goku was probably holding back, and low and behold she ended up losing to a tired SSG Goku. It's not impossible for Toppo to be above Blue Goku, but we know Golden Frieza is equal to Blue Goku and there is a very real possibility Frieza will end up beating Toppo. So lets wait and see how things play out before we say Toppo is obviously above Blue level. Tbh him stalemating Vegeta is already enough to say he is at least really close to Blue level.

[Miracles]

Toppo, holding back, tanked a Super Blue Kamehameha at point blank. He took no damage but was only annoyed at his costume being ripped. Beerus even thought Goku killed Toppo with that attack.
Toppo begins to power up, Goku says I'll show you what it looks like "when I surpass my limits." He stated this while in Blue, meaning he went above blue, powering up with Kaioken. The Grand priest even knew that ONE of them might kill each other. He didn't say Goku was going to kill Toppo. Toppo in the manga fought MSSB, the one who fought a fused character "toe-to-toe" and is at a level where he could use "Hakai." A Toppo holding back was fighting Blue Vegeta in the TOP too. Toppo is above SSB.

Literally nobody as taken real damage in this arc. Kale walked through a SSB kamehameha, people were saying she was above Blue level because of that, and I said no wait until more comes out Goku was probably holding back, and low and behold she ended up losing to a tired SSG Goku. It's not impossible for Toppo to be above Blue Goku, but we know Golden Frieza is equal to Blue Goku and there is a very real possibility Frieza will end up beating Toppo. So lets wait and see how things play out before we say Toppo is obviously above Blue level. Tbh him stalemating Vegeta is already enough to say he is at least really close to Blue level.

You mean a Toppo HOLDING back is fighting a Blue Vegeta just like he was holding back against Blue Goku. Doesn't matter if Goku was holding back cause Toppo was holding back too. Then they finally both powered up, Goku going beyond Blue with Kaioken.

Also, Kale walking through that Blue Kamehameha was legit. Otherwise Beerus, Goku, Toppo, Vegeta and even Jiren during his meditation wouldn't be aware and worried about her presence again. To add, Caulifla, fighting SSJ2 Goku again, after being blown back by his punch, stated "Is this really the same Super Saiyan 2 power?" This is more evidence that Goku got stronger rather than him holding back before.

[Dreamer]

Literally nobody as taken real damage in this arc. Kale walked through a SSB kamehameha, people were saying she was above Blue level because of that, and I said no wait until more comes out Goku was probably holding back, and low and behold she ended up losing to a tired SSG Goku. It's not impossible for Toppo to be above Blue Goku, but we know Golden Frieza is equal to Blue Goku and there is a very real possibility Frieza will end up beating Toppo. So lets wait and see how things play out before we say Toppo is obviously above Blue level. Tbh him stalemating Vegeta is already enough to say he is at least really close to Blue level.

Kale was never shown "losing" to a tired SSG Goku, that's just absurd. Unless I'm just focusing too much on the wording. It was more-so as to her holding her own without showing many difficulties as such while at the same time worrying about Caulifa's behind, with Goku having to keep her away from Caulifa. She literally was matching Goku in h2h combat now.

I don't see how the scene from matching vs (tired) SSG Goku diminish Kale's initial feat(i.e, vs SSB Goku).

I still think Kale is at least lower tier SSB,

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku just said he wanted to show Toppo what was going on when he went beyond his limits. It does not exactly mean that Toppo was superior to Goku SSB.
Anyway, claim that Toppo> Goku SSB means that Vegeta SSB> Goku SSB as well.

The narrator said that Gohan's power rivaled that of Goku, and this actually happened in the fight between Gohan and Goku SSJ2, not with Goku Blue (punching him with him did not last 5 seconds).
The narrator also said that Goku defeated Freeza and managed to recruit him on EP 96. But did this happen? No, the two drew and even Beerus says so.

Except the narrator is proven correct when we see Gohan say he is using full power to fight Blue Goku and trades blows with Blue Goku and knocking Blue Goku back.
As for Toppo being above Blue...See above.

Swapping 5 second punches against a Goku SSB contained mean what? Gohan said he wanted his father to use all his power, in this case the Blue Kaioken. There's nothing to stop Blue Goku from holding on as he did against all his opponents in recruiting. And EP 120 makes it clear that Goku and Vegeta SSB >>> Gohan. After all, Gohan preferred to fight and expend energy while sparing his father and Vegeta to face U11.
Not to mention that Gohan ALSO said he was using all his power against Goku SSJ2.

On Toppo, Goku told Vegeta that he did not know if he could beat him, even in the Blue form (he did not say Kaioken). Indicating that only with SSB, defeat was not certain, he could win

[dragon boss z]

You mean a Toppo HOLDING back is fighting a Blue Vegeta just like he was holding back against Blue Goku. Doesn't matter if Goku was holding back cause Toppo was holding back too. Then they finally both powered up, Goku going beyond Blue with Kaioken.

Also, Kale walking through that Blue Kamehameha was legit. Otherwise Beerus, Goku, Toppo, Vegeta and even Jiren during his meditation wouldn't be aware and worried about her presence again. To add, Caulifla, fighting SSJ2 Goku again, after being blown back by his punch, stated "Is this really the same Super Saiyan 2 power?" This is more evidence that Goku got stronger rather than him holding back before.

You think Goku's power went up so much in like 30 minutes his tired SSG state was above his SSB state from before? It was made pretty clear at the end that mastered berserk Kale<tired SSG Goku<base Kefla<tired SSB Goku

Kale was never shown "losing" to a tired SSG Goku, that's just absurd.

He tanked her blast with no damage.





Goku's ki blasts went right through hers and Cauliflas at the same time.



And flat out rung her out



So the fact you say her losing is absurd when she legit would of lost if they didn't fuse doesn't really make sense to me.

Unless I'm just focusing too much on the wording. It was more-so as to her holding her own without showing many difficulties as such while at the same time worrying about Caulifa's behind, with Goku having to keep her away from Caulifa. She literally was matching Goku in h2h combat now.

Yes she was matching him and I do think her power is at least comparable to his. She wasn't getting stomped like Caulifla, but she still was noticeably inferior.

I don't see how the scene from matching vs (tired) SSG Goku diminish Kale's initial feat(i.e, vs SSB Goku).

Because it was stated her mastered Berserk strength was the same if not more than her original berserk state and her new mastered berserk state lost to a tired SSG or at the very least was even with him, which is weaker than SSB.
It was also stated base Kefla was stronger than ever before and even ssj Kefla had trouble with Blue. Kale<base Kefla<tired Blue Goku

I still think Kale is at least lower tier SSB,

Maybe RoF Blue tier depending on how strong you think they got over time, but she was shown to be below SSG Goku in the ToP.

[Kenneth La Torre]

From the next episode preview, it seems like anizara is learning techniques while he fights (the way he looks at his hand when he makes a ki ball). Its probably the same thing as when the robots were scaning the Z fighters. Maybe the aniraza can copy abilities he sees.

[Dreamer]

Kale was never shown "losing" to a tired SSG Goku, that's just absurd.

He tanked her blast with no damage.





Goku's ki blasts went right through hers and Cauliflas at the same time.



And flat out rung her out



So the fact you say her losing is absurd when she legit would of lost if they didn't fuse doesn't really make sense to me.

Unless I'm just focusing too much on the wording. It was more-so as to her holding her own without showing many difficulties as such while at the same time worrying about Caulifa's behind, with Goku having to keep her away from Caulifa. She literally was matching Goku in h2h combat now.

Yes she was matching him and I do think her power is at least comparable to his. She wasn't getting stomped like Caulifla, but she still was noticeably inferior.

I don't see how the scene from matching vs (tired) SSG Goku diminish Kale's initial feat(i.e, vs SSB Goku).

Because it was stated her mastered Berserk strength was the same if not more than her original berserk state and her new mastered berserk state lost to a tired SSG or at the very least was even with him, which is weaker than SSB.
It was also stated base Kefla was stronger than ever before and even ssj Kefla had trouble with Blue. Kale<base Kefla<tired Blue Goku

I still think Kale is at least lower tier SSB,

Maybe RoF Blue tier depending on how strong you think they got over time, but she was shown to be below SSG Goku in the ToP.

You realized just as much Kale's attacks were ineffective(especially since Goku only broke through Kale's attack after she was distracted by Caullifa), Goku's attacks were also just as ineffective as hers, right?

No, that's not what I meant. No, she would not have lost if it wasn't for her morality issues. My point is that she never "lost" to Goku in a straight up fight as shown she could still keep on fighting but her fighting spirit was certainly starting to dwindle after Caulifa looked as if she was at her wits because you know, Caulifa is her emotional supporter. Goku, once again, never tried to ring out Kale by herself. Only then when Caulifa was done Goku then tried to eliminate Kale and Caulifa by breaking apart a stage.

Yeah, Kale in terms of fighting skills/combat skill is inferior to Caulifa and Goku.


SSJ Kefla had trouble with Blue? Goku realized he couldn't defeat her in Blue, and resort to stacking KKx[insert-number-here]. Likely she could have overpowered SSB Goku at any given time & still was holding back much more power than what everybody thought in the next episode. We don't know the full extent of Kale's power to be honest because she has never gotten the chance to fully utilize/demonstrate herself after Goku quickly tried to get rid of them. So I don't see how the episode outright shouts, to me, Kale is weaker than a tired ssg Goku and therefore diminish her feat against Blue is not legit.

[JazzMazz]

Kale was never shown "losing" to a tired SSG Goku, that's just absurd.

He tanked her blast with no damage.





Goku's ki blasts went right through hers and Cauliflas at the same time.



And flat out rung her out



So the fact you say her losing is absurd when she legit would of lost if they didn't fuse doesn't really make sense to me.

Unless I'm just focusing too much on the wording. It was more-so as to her holding her own without showing many difficulties as such while at the same time worrying about Caulifa's behind, with Goku having to keep her away from Caulifa. She literally was matching Goku in h2h combat now.

Yes she was matching him and I do think her power is at least comparable to his. She wasn't getting stomped like Caulifla, but she still was noticeably inferior.

I don't see how the scene from matching vs (tired) SSG Goku diminish Kale's initial feat(i.e, vs SSB Goku).

Because it was stated her mastered Berserk strength was the same if not more than her original berserk state and her new mastered berserk state lost to a tired SSG or at the very least was even with him, which is weaker than SSB.
It was also stated base Kefla was stronger than ever before and even ssj Kefla had trouble with Blue. Kale<base Kefla<tired Blue Goku

I still think Kale is at least lower tier SSB,

Maybe RoF Blue tier depending on how strong you think they got over time, but she was shown to be below SSG Goku in the ToP.

You realized just as much Kale's attacks were ineffective(especially since Goku only broke through Kale's attack after she was distracted by Caullifa), Goku's attacks were also just as ineffective as hers, right?

No, that's not what I meant. No, she would not have lost if it wasn't for her morality issues. My point is that she never "lost" to Goku in a straight up fight as shown she could still keep on fighting but her fighting spirit was certainly starting to dwindle after Caulifa looked as if she was at her wits because you know, Caulifa is her emotional supporter. Goku, once again, never tried to ring out Kale by herself. Only then when Caulifa was done Goku then tried to eliminate Kale and Caulifa by breaking apart a stage.

Yeah, Kale in terms of fighting skills/combat skill is inferior to Caulifa and Goku.


SSJ Kefla had trouble? she was overpowering SSB Goku & still was holding back much more power than what everybody thought in the next episode. We don't know the full extent of Kale's power to be honest because she has never gotten the chance to fully utilize/demonstrate herself after Goku quickly tried to get rid of them. So I don't see how the episode outright shouts, to me, Kale is weaker than a tired ssg Goku and therefore diminish her feat against Blue is not legit.

So, everyone literally commenting on how Goku was in a completely different class to the universe 6 Saiyans, and being able to defend against base form Kefla, which was described as having power far greater than that when they were two people.

Not to mention Goku's attacks against Kale were sure as hell more effective than her attacks against him as a Super Saiyan God. At point blank range, he effortlessly tanks a blast from Kale and proceeds to kick in the face. He then later, creates two energy balls that not only go through Kale and Caulifla's combined assault, which Kale was only just barely able to properly deflect, after a great deal of time and effort.

These examples prove that Goku as a Super Saiyan God outclassed Kale. There were multiple examples when they were fighting, and even the spectators were commenting on how his way out of their league as a Super Saiyan God. Even giving Kale the benefit of the doubt and saying she could at least hold her own for a time and is thus at least comparable to SSG Goku, its still been demonstrated that Goku was out of her league through several raw feats of power. Also, I don't see how he was at all hurrying to end the fight.

[TheUltimateNinja]

At any rate being close to God is nothing impressive now since it's been turned into a joke in the anime, if she manages anything in the manga I'll be impressed.

[Dreamer]

No, that's not what I meant. No, she would not have lost if it wasn't for her morality issues. My point is that she never "lost" to Goku in a straight up fight as shown she could still keep on fighting but her fighting spirit was certainly starting to dwindle after Caulifa looked as if she was at her wits because you know, Caulifa is her emotional supporter. Goku, once again, never tried to ring out Kale by herself. Only then when Caulifa was done Goku then tried to eliminate Kale and Caulifa by breaking apart a stage.

Yeah, Kale in terms of fighting skills/combat skill is inferior to Caulifa and Goku.


SSJ Kefla had trouble? she was overpowering SSB Goku & still was holding back much more power than what everybody thought in the next episode. We don't know the full extent of Kale's power to be honest because she has never gotten the chance to fully utilize/demonstrate herself after Goku quickly tried to get rid of them. So I don't see how the episode outright shouts, to me, Kale is weaker than a tired ssg Goku and therefore diminish her feat against Blue is not legit.

So, everyone literally commenting on how Goku was in a completely different class to the universe 6 Saiyans, and being able to defend against base form Kefla, which was described as having power far greater than that when they were two people.

Not to mention Goku's attacks against Kale were sure as hell more effective than her attacks against him as a Super Saiyan God. At point blank range, he effortlessly tanks a blast from Kale and proceeds to kick in the face. He then later, creates two energy balls that not only go through Kale and Caulifla's combined assault, which Kale was only just barely able to properly deflect, after a great deal of time and effort.

These examples prove that Goku as a Super Saiyan God outclassed Kale. There were multiple examples when they were fighting, and even the spectators were commenting on how his way out of their league as a Super Saiyan God. Even giving Kale the benefit of the doubt and saying she could at least hold her own for a time and is thus at least comparable to SSG Goku, its still been demonstrated that Goku was out of her league through several raw feats of power. Also, I don't see how he was at all hurrying to end the fight.

Goku overall is just a better fighter than the U6 Saiyans, I don't think anyone is denying that. However, Kelfa likely was holding back just to use more of Goku to unlock more of her potential regardless if Goku being able to defend against her. Literally in the next episode showed she could have ended Goku at any given moment before he broke his shell — i.e, Ultra Instinct Omen. Given the impression on some of the comments — my main point here is that Kale never "lost" to Goku in a straight-up fight despite him having more of the rhythm here, he still couldn't do any damage to her in Super Saiyan God form.

Yes, it is impressive Goku can hold his own against the two female Saiyans, he has shown he could clearly have taken out Caulifa at any given moment. But, Kale, however? I don't agree as aforementioned.
Well just because Goku's attacked looked more effective than hers doesn't mean it is; she showed no signs taking any real damage.

You have two Saiyans with the biggest potential we have seen thus far. battle continuously kept on going+gets stronger at the most crucial moment=bad for Goku. Kale(in the right state of mind/an angry Kale) by herself is potentially dangerous in her own right if the battle were to keep on going(just her going into her Berserker form is enough to make Goku's body shake). What better way to get rid of them if one them is on there last standing leg, and the other one is losing their fighting spirit because their leader/master/protector can't continue anymore. I, too, would have taken the chance to quickly get rid of them by not actually aiming at them but destroy part of the stage to ring them out.

[perucho1990]

At any rate being close to God is nothing impressive now since it's been turned into a joke in the anime, if she manages anything in the manga I'll be impressed.

Tired Goku is a meme like "Holding back".

Not only tired SSJG Goku overcame controlled berserker Kale despite Tien saying she was stronger than when she was mindless but also tired Goku was more impressive than Android 17 in episode 118 despite 17 being Blue level.

[Kenneth La Torre]

At any rate being close to God is nothing impressive now since it's been turned into a joke in the anime, if she manages anything in the manga I'll be impressed.

Tired Goku is a meme like "Holding back".

Not only tired SSJG Goku overcame controlled berserker Kale despite Tien saying she was stronger than when she was mindless but also tired Goku was more impressive than Android 17 in episode 118 despite 17 being Blue level.

Tired goku is just tired. As far as i know, one does not lose over 10× more power for being tired to the extend goku is. 2x weaker probably, but not 10×.