The_Destroyer wrote:
Okay fine, I concede that this new personality was to show how much 17 has changed over years, I get that. But that doesn't change the fact that to me, his fights are boring. He just fights fodder, and barely struggles at all. Everyone else(bar Frieza) has had their fair share of struggles, but yet 17 comes in taking up screentime with his boring ass fights. Maybe it was wrong of me to say they are there just to make him look cool, and tbh they do sometimes, but at this point I'm like we get it, 17's cool, now stop with wasting screentime with the fodder stomps and actually let him struggle for once.
As I noted, this reads like personal issues you have with the character since everyone fought fodder, including Vegeta who only real 'serious' fight was Toppo who he half fought since he was to busy checking out Goku's fight. 17 doesn't even have the most scene time out of everyone left in U7, so how is he sucking up scene time? He disappeared after Episode 103, make a cameo in 109 and 110, only to show up again in 105. He didn't even fight again until 117.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
The_Destroyer wrote:
Okay fine, I concede that this new personality was to show how much 17 has changed over years, I get that. But that doesn't change the fact that to me, his fights are boring. He just fights fodder, and barely struggles at all. Everyone else(bar Frieza) has had their fair share of struggles, but yet 17 comes in taking up screentime with his boring ass fights. Maybe it was wrong of me to say they are there just to make him look cool, and tbh they do sometimes, but at this point I'm like we get it, 17's cool, now stop with wasting screentime with the fodder stomps and actually let him struggle for once.
As I noted, this reads like personal issues you have with the character since everyone fought fodder, including Vegeta who only real 'serious' fight was Toppo who he half fought since he was to busy checking out Goku's fight. 17 doesn't even have the most scene time out of everyone left in U7, so how is he sucking up scene time? He disappeared after Episode 103, make a cameo in 109 and 110, only to show up again in 105. He didn't even fight again until 117.
What about when Vegeta was about to get eliminated by Frost? Hell he had legit struggles with certain Fodder like BotaMagetta and the universe 9 ice guy. Plus his fight with Katopesla was way better thans 17's. As for 17, Damon lands one good attack on him, after that he's straight up fodderized.
All I said was I dont like how 17's opponents have all been fodder. I do think he does need to overpower opponents every now and then, but the fact that he's gotten so many fights, yet still hasn't gotten a good one. And I know, I've said this many times before, I believe Aniraza will give him a good fight.
Personall issues? What do you mean by that? It's not like 17 stole my girlfriend or anything. It's a fictional character. Do I have issues with the character? Yes, I outright stated I find him boring. What was the point of even saying that?
Do you have personal issues with people talking bad about Super?
The_Destroyer wrote:
What about when Vegeta was about to get eliminated by Frost? Hell he had legit struggles with certain Fodder like BotaMagetta and the universe 9 ice guy. Plus his fight with Katopesla was way better thans 17's. As for 17, Damon lands one good attack on him, after that he's straight up fodderized.
All I said was I dont like how 17's opponents have all been fodder. I do think he does need to overpower opponents every now and then, but the fact that he's gotten so many fights, yet still hasn't gotten a good one. And I know, I've said this many times before, I believe Aniraza will give him a good fight.
Personall issues? What do you mean by that? It's not like 17 stole my girlfriend or anything. It's a fictional character. Do I have issues with the character? Yes, I outright stated I find him boring. What was the point of even saying that?
Do you have personal issues with people talking bad about Super?
But that wasn't him personally struggling so much as his own teammate more or less screwing him. And Vegeta 'struggled' with Super Saiyan. He has at least two transformations he could have used to stomped them. Hence fans accusing Super of 'fake tension'. And 'Katopesla was way better thans 17's', was that really a fight since Vegeta let Katopesla punch him to get UI while 17 just punched him away? 17 was also hit several times by Damon in the back.
What I mean about 'personal issues' is that you seemed to resent 17 for being so strong and not struggling when the same thing could be said about other characters. You claimed he sucks up scene time despite him disappearing for over a month and not fighting again for over two months. He only recently got focused and he shared his scene time with everyone remaining in U7. Even his dedicated episode was shared with Goku and to a lesser extent Vegeta. I mean not liking a character is one thing, but your entire post about him just reeks of resentment.
And what is up with you going with 'do you have personal issues with people talking bad about Super'?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Man ya know who was a good character that was introduced this arc that everyone forgot about? Basil, best out of the trio de dangers and hands down had one of the best fights as well. Dang shame he was taken out so fast but atleast he got the first knockout out of the tournament. That's why I'll be conflicted if the universes do stay erased by the end of the arc. On one hand it would be better if they do stay erased because of consequences, but on the other hand I've enjoyed a lot of the newly introduced characters even though many of them aren't that fleshed out.
Michsi wrote:
You'd think anyone would've fought for life, but this level of come-what-may calmness in the face of annihilation feels more like something you'd see in 16 rather than 17.
As for him still being a fun-loving kid- as far as I can tell the androids don't age, so they could've very well went in that direction instead of "married with three kids". One thing in particular that made me think he might still be a bit on the juvenile side was that one panel with him in the Buu Saga. He was clearly holding a riffle there when he very obviously doesn't need any weapon. We saw in the Cell Saga that he likes guns and cars, so I took that as a sign of him still having that side.
17 still has a playful side as seen with U2 and telling Maron that he’s 17 years old. It just isn’t his dominated personality anymore. Not aging also doesn’t mean keeping the same personality you had ten years ago. He also drives a Jeep despite being able to fly, so that part of him remains.
16 would have joined the U7 team right aware to protect life, no have a ‘so be it’ calmness.
He does have that playful side but it's a far cry from what he showed before. I just mentioned a direction they could've gone with him, we have so many characters that have barely changed over the years. 18 hasn't changed much since the Cell saga. She already brings nonchalance to the team, 17 could've been different.
That he'd be different after 20 years makes sense, my issue is that it just doesn't make him as appealing. Just my opinion of course.
To be fair, I think a lot of it has to do with his VA. The only time I heard this VA was when he played a placid old man, so maybe this is where my impression comes from. How a character sounds is really important to me.
In the present, 17 was really close to what he is now.
The only thing that changed is his pride and cockiness, and it certainly isn't a big loss that he discarded this aspect of his personality.
Also, 17 simply wasn't given anybody worthy to fight so far. That's not his fault. There was no reason for him to struggle against Rosie or Damon, they are not strong characters.
He only fought a little bit.
Dyspo would give him a great fight and I hope this is where we're going. It would be kind of lame to be defeated by Anizara because that's just a giant with brute force. Super boring.
As for his fights, I don't get it, he's the only character that has shown new powers from the u7 team, and his fights have some strategical aspects to them since he doesn't rely on transformations.
He had to mimic Kakunsa to beat her fighting style and tricked her to be in aerial state, tricked Rosie into dropping her guard so that she would get hit by Brianne's attack, lured Damon in so he could see what he is then trapped him in his barrier...
That's about 78 millions times more interesting than " hey i'm gonna punch you 5 times and finish you off with mah full powa kamehameha" like a certain other character has been doing since the beginning.
In the present, 17 was really close to what he is now.
The only thing that changed is his pride and cockiness, and it certainly isn't a big loss that he discarded this aspect of his personality.
.
When done well, mischievous cockiness can fun as hell. But I guess it's my fault for imagining him as very different for all these years. I was really excited when they announced his inclusion, but somehow I didn't end up enjoying it as much as I thought it would. His role up until isn't bad, it's just not great. That's just me, though. To each his own.
That's about 78 millions times more interesting than " hey i'm gonna punch you 5 times and finish you off with mah full powa kamehameha" like a certain other character has been doing since the beginning.
Assuming this is Goku-this statement isn't correct. There is no character in DB more resourceful or creative when fighting than him, and we've had one of the best moves he ever pulled in this show right here in this arc.
In the present, 17 was really close to what he is now.
The only thing that changed is his pride and cockiness, and it certainly isn't a big loss that he discarded this aspect of his personality.
.
When done well, mischievous cockiness can fun as hell. But I guess it's my fault for imagining him as very different for all these years. I was really excited when they announced his inclusion, but somehow I didn't end up enjoying it as much as I thought it would. His role up until isn't bad, it's just not great. That's just me, though. To each his own.
That's about 78 millions times more interesting than " hey i'm gonna punch you 5 times and finish you off with mah full powa kamehameha" like a certain other character has been doing since the beginning.
Assuming this is Goku-this statement isn't correct. There is no character in DB more resourceful or creative when fighting than him, and we've had one of the best moves he ever pulled in this show right here in this arc.
Pretty sure he is talking about gohan.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
In the present, 17 was really close to what he is now.
The only thing that changed is his pride and cockiness, and it certainly isn't a big loss that he discarded this aspect of his personality.
.
When done well, mischievous cockiness can fun as hell. But I guess it's my fault for imagining him as very different for all these years. I was really excited when they announced his inclusion, but somehow I didn't end up enjoying it as much as I thought it would. His role up until isn't bad, it's just not great. That's just me, though. To each his own.
That's about 78 millions times more interesting than " hey i'm gonna punch you 5 times and finish you off with mah full powa kamehameha" like a certain other character has been doing since the beginning.
Assuming this is Goku-this statement isn't correct. There is no character in DB more resourceful or creative when fighting than him, and we've had one of the best moves he ever pulled in this show right here in this arc.
Pretty sure he is talking about gohan.
Makes more sense, but doesn't seem like a fair assessment either. His fight with the namekians and Obuni was great.
Michsi wrote:
When done well, mischievous cockiness can fun as hell. But I guess it's my fault for imagining him as very different for all these years. I was really excited when they announced his inclusion, but somehow I didn't end up enjoying it as much as I thought it would. His role up until isn't bad, it's just not great. That's just me, though. To each his own.
Assuming this is Goku-this statement isn't correct. There is no character in DB more resourceful or creative when fighting than him, and we've had one of the best moves he ever pulled in this show right here in this arc.
Pretty sure he is talking about gohan.
Makes more sense, but doesn't seem like a fair assessment either. His fight with the namekians and Obuni was great.
I don’t know man,I haven’t enjoyed any of his fight in this tournament.His inclusion seems artificial to me,especially the praise and strategy he uses.Even take obuni one it was basically his old way of I am way more powerful than you.The fight with botamo was worst way we have seen to deal with Winnie poah.I just didn’t like the name Namekian fight and whole episode 119 was stupid.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Hawk9211 wrote:
Pretty sure he is talking about gohan.
Makes more sense, but doesn't seem like a fair assessment either. His fight with the namekians and Obuni was great.
I don’t know man,I haven’t enjoyed any of his fight in this tournament.His inclusion seems artificial to me,especially the praise and strategy he uses.Even take obuni one it was basically his old way of I am way more powerful than you.The fight with botamo was worst way we have seen to deal with Winnie poah.I just didn’t like the name Namekian fight and whole episode 119 was stupid.
Actually, out of all the new additions, he is the one that makes most sense imo. His return to form has been one of the few overarching themes of the series. Granted, it took some time for him to find his rhythm in this tournament, and his leader bit amounted to nothing in the end, but it's been getting better and better for him. He's more reserved and down-to-business than Goku and Vegeta, but he is brutal when pushed, as seen in the U6 fight. The fact that he took charge and became the protector for once was an absolute treat and made his misstep in 106 more bearable in retrospect. I just hope the rest of the arc does him justice. The manga seems to allude he'll be a extremely important, but that just might've been for the sake of ending the chapter with a bit of dramatic flare. A lot of promoted characters haven't lived up to the hype that surrounded them.
Michsi wrote:
When done well, mischievous cockiness can fun as hell.
Heh.
He's been having fun and taunting his opponents plenty. Kakunsa kept calling him his prey, and right before he trashed her he said "The prey... is you.", with Brianne he flat out role played and assumed the role of the Dark Lord, Damon told him he couldn't catch him and he literally trapped him in a barrier. Even this episode you had 17 taunt Viara a lot and commented on how stupid
his plan of just trying to tank their attacks.
We certainly are not missing his Vegeta behaviour of thinking nobody can damage him ever and thinking he's the absolute best. He kept his fun personality, he is just more mature.
Michsi wrote:
When done well, mischievous cockiness can fun as hell.
Heh.
He's been having fun and taunting his opponents plenty. Kakunsa kept calling him his prey, and right before he trashed her he said "The prey... is you.", with Brianne he flat out role played and assumed the role of the Dark Lord, Damon told him he couldn't catch him and he literally trapped him in a barrier. Even this episode you had 17 taunt Viara a lot and commented on how stupid
his plan of just trying to tank their attacks.
We certainly are not missing his Vegeta behaviour of thinking nobody can damage him ever and thinking he's the absolute best. He kept his fun personality, he is just more mature.
Crazy what a 10 years timeskip does to you.
I don't know, guess it just hasn't left a great impression on me. Either it's his opponents or his fights overall. But as I said, it's my fault for expecting something different. My favorite thing was him calling himself the evil doer, but that also because of 18 and Goku playing along in the end that made the whole scene.
The_Destroyer wrote:
What about when Vegeta was about to get eliminated by Frost? Hell he had legit struggles with certain Fodder like BotaMagetta and the universe 9 ice guy. Plus his fight with Katopesla was way better thans 17's. As for 17, Damon lands one good attack on him, after that he's straight up fodderized.
All I said was I dont like how 17's opponents have all been fodder. I do think he does need to overpower opponents every now and then, but the fact that he's gotten so many fights, yet still hasn't gotten a good one. And I know, I've said this many times before, I believe Aniraza will give him a good fight.
Personall issues? What do you mean by that? It's not like 17 stole my girlfriend or anything. It's a fictional character. Do I have issues with the character? Yes, I outright stated I find him boring. What was the point of even saying that?
Do you have personal issues with people talking bad about Super?
But that wasn't him personally struggling so much as his own teammate more or less screwing him. And Vegeta 'struggled' with Super Saiyan. He has at least two transformations he could have used to stomped them. Hence fans accusing Super of 'fake tension'. And 'Katopesla was way better thans 17's', was that really a fight since Vegeta let Katopesla punch him to get UI while 17 just punched him away? 17 was also hit several times by Damon in the back.
What I mean about 'personal issues' is that you seemed to resent 17 for being so strong and not struggling when the same thing could be said about other characters. You claimed he sucks up scene time despite him disappearing for over a month and not fighting again for over two months. He only recently got focused and he shared his scene time with everyone remaining in U7. Even his dedicated episode was shared with Goku and to a lesser extent Vegeta. I mean not liking a character is one thing, but your entire post about him just reeks of resentment.
And what is up with you going with 'do you have personal issues with people talking bad about Super'?
Personally I'm not reading his posts about 17 in the light of a personal issue.
We all like and dislike characters for different reasons. We don't really need to see Vegeta "struggle" because we know where he stands on the totem pole of Super. We know who he should be stomping through watching him the entirety of Z and Super.
I can see why the same can't be said for 17 in some minds, not saying I agree but here we have a character who has done nothing since we last saw him in Z. Okay he's trained....but to some that isn't a valid reason to have him just be so calm and collected.
Obviously he will struggle at some point but I will admit I find it odd he's so easily able to curb stomp everyone.
We can point out fake tension with top characters, but when did 17 become a top character? Everyone that should be in his tier has at least had to exert themselves fully at one point or another.
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The_Destroyer wrote:I hope 17 goes out to Aniraza. To me, he's boring and overrated as hell. They write him so that all his opponents are complete fodder, while he looks completely bored in every fight in barely fights, just so he looks "cool". Well, it's not cool, it's forced as hell. It's time they have 17 actually sturggle against someone for once, Aniraza better deliver.
Out of everyone on team 7 who one shotted everyone left and right you chose 17 as a target of course ? what about Frieza ? what about Vegeta ? it just feels like you have personal anger for characters who are serious and level headed like 17.
The_Destroyer wrote:
What about when Vegeta was about to get eliminated by Frost? Hell he had legit struggles with certain Fodder like BotaMagetta and the universe 9 ice guy. Plus his fight with Katopesla was way better thans 17's. As for 17, Damon lands one good attack on him, after that he's straight up fodderized.
All I said was I dont like how 17's opponents have all been fodder. I do think he does need to overpower opponents every now and then, but the fact that he's gotten so many fights, yet still hasn't gotten a good one. And I know, I've said this many times before, I believe Aniraza will give him a good fight.
Personall issues? What do you mean by that? It's not like 17 stole my girlfriend or anything. It's a fictional character. Do I have issues with the character? Yes, I outright stated I find him boring. What was the point of even saying that?
Do you have personal issues with people talking bad about Super?
But that wasn't him personally struggling so much as his own teammate more or less screwing him. And Vegeta 'struggled' with Super Saiyan. He has at least two transformations he could have used to stomped them. Hence fans accusing Super of 'fake tension'. And 'Katopesla was way better thans 17's', was that really a fight since Vegeta let Katopesla punch him to get UI while 17 just punched him away? 17 was also hit several times by Damon in the back.
What I mean about 'personal issues' is that you seemed to resent 17 for being so strong and not struggling when the same thing could be said about other characters. You claimed he sucks up scene time despite him disappearing for over a month and not fighting again for over two months. He only recently got focused and he shared his scene time with everyone remaining in U7. Even his dedicated episode was shared with Goku and to a lesser extent Vegeta. I mean not liking a character is one thing, but your entire post about him just reeks of resentment.
And what is up with you going with 'do you have personal issues with people talking bad about Super'?
Personally I'm not reading his posts about 17 in the light of a personal issue.
We all like and dislike characters for different reasons. We don't really need to see Vegeta "struggle" because we know where he stands on the totem pole of Super. We know who he should be stomping through watching him the entirety of Z and Super.
I can see why the same can't be said for 17 in some minds, not saying I agree but here we have a character who has done nothing since we last saw him in Z. Okay he's trained....but to some that isn't a valid reason to have him just be so calm and collected.
Obviously he will struggle at some point but I will admit I find it odd he's so easily able to curb stomp everyone.
We can point out fake tension with top characters, but when did 17 become a top character? Everyone that should be in his tier has at least had to exert themselves fully at one point or another.
I think you're underrestimating him and expect him to be weaker than he is. truth is that 17 just didn't meet an opponent who really challenged him.
perucho1990 wrote:The one that needs to go is 18, she NEEDS to go and become Anizara victim, the moment she goes IMO its the moment Freeza steps in to help Team U7.
Sorry for 18 fans that this arc will be the last time we see her fight, after this back to housewife role.
Your predictions are iffy since you also thought 18 stood around to be controlled by U3.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
