Gotenks' Strength

[dragonball0900]

This is one of the most difficult things for me to figure out. The thing is, the Daizenshuu says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only after the ROSAT training, but we don't know which form they are talking about, base? SSJ? SSJ3? However we have some other data about Gotenks' strenght in the manga.

When Gotenks was SSJ for the first time and went to confront Fat Buu (after a lot of circles around the Earth and resting, etc), Piccolo was only worried about Gotenks' time limit of the fusion (which is 30 minutes if I remember correctly), not about Gotenks losing like how he did when he went in base against him. This is Piccolo directly telling them they won't win agaisnt Fat Buu in base:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

Piccolo wanted them to be SSJs, in their base they wouldn't be enough at all.

That heavily implies that Gotenks in SSJ form before the ROSAT was already stronger than Fat Buu (though we don't know if he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku or not). One thing for sure is that Gotenks as SSJ is not enough to be as strong as Super Buu (initial):

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Then when they were in the ROSAT against Super Buu, Trunks talked about how Gotenks' base regular form could be equal to the initial Super Buu that's stronger than Fat Buu:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

You can say Trunks was talking about SSJ form, but that wouldn't make sense since they initially began their fight vs Super Buu with base Gotenks, not SSJ Gotenks. And then we have Piccolo's line:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

Piccolo didn't know Gotenks can transform into SSJ from base at that time.

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P5.3
Piccolo: “Oh! So he can become a Super Saiyan even after Fusion?!”

Mixing this with Trunks' line about base Gotenks being equal to Super Buu, that means that Base Gotenks is equal to Super Buu (Piccolo's and Trunks's expectations, not at full power), who would be stronger than SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT), who would be stronger than Fat Buu.

Now the Daizenshuu says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after the ROSAT training, but as I said before, we don't know if the Daizenshuu was talking about SSJ or just in base. Judging by the information I've gathered, we can conclude that the Daizenshuu was referring to Gotenks' base. Considering that Goku was not mentioned as being surpassed, then SSJ3 Goku would be above Base Gotenks (post ROSAT), then we can say:

SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Post ROSAT) = Super Buu (Piccolo's and Trunks' expectations) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre ROSAT) > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta > Base Gotenks (Pre ROSAT)

The x50 multiplier won't be able to work for Gotenks' fusion though. It probably should be x2 or something like that. Also I think it's logical to say that SSJ Gotenks (Post ROSAT) would be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, i agree with the Base Post > SSJ Pre > Fat Boo chain, except that i completely disregard the Daizenshuu here and have Base Pre > Majin Vegeta. I mean, everybody is excited, Kuririn and Yamcha think Gotenks has a shot, even Piccolo agrees Gotenks was some incredible power. I don't see that scene making sense if Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Tier. And there's him surviving Boo, if that counts.

By the way, Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him:
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
So yeah, SSJ Gotenks should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku prior to the Rosat.

[Meshack]

If Piccolo didn’t know that Gotenks could transform after Fusion, then it begs the question if Gotenks did transform against the good Majin-Boo. The anime depicted that he didn’t transform but Toriyama didn’t so...

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Piccolo didn’t know that Gotenks could transform after Fusion, then it begs the question if Gotenks did transform against the good Majin-Boo. The anime depicted that he didn’t transform but Toriyama didn’t so...

Piccolo didn't know Gotenks could transform after fused. The kids fused as SSJs before Rosat:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Meshack]

If Piccolo didn’t know that Gotenks could transform after Fusion, then it begs the question if Gotenks did transform against the good Majin-Boo. The anime depicted that he didn’t transform but Toriyama didn’t so...

Piccolo didn't know Gotenks could transform after fused. The kids fused as SSJs before Rosat:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

...That’s what I said

If Piccolo didn’t know that Gotenks could transform after Fusion...

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, i agree with the Base Post > SSJ Pre > Fat Boo chain, except that i completely disregard the Daizenshuu here and have Base Pre > Majin Vegeta. I mean, everybody is excited, Kuririn and Yamcha think Gotenks has a shot, even Piccolo agrees Gotenks was some incredible power. I don't see that scene making sense if Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Tier. And there's him surviving Boo, if that counts.

By the way, Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him:
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
So yeah, SSJ Gotenks should be stronger than SSJ3 Goku prior to the Rosat.

This is a funny remark, because either Goku never told that to Boo and he is trying to calm Piccolo down or the author forgot Goku didn’t tell that or Goku told it off-screen. Whatever, Goku saying what he suposedly told Boo doesn’t confirm he is telling 100% truth. Actually, the part where he me mentions a strong person will appear strikes me as a strategy to lure Boo out of killing people and to give time to the boys master Fusion. Further, he reveals he decided to not beat Boo in order to the living ones figure out a way themselves.

[ssbgoku]

Well If we take everything which was said about gotenks's Strength literally then we could get post rosat ssj gotenks curmbstomping completly ssj3 goku and post rosat base gotenks > pre rosat ssj gotenks. The problem with that is following events/feats have been keeping contradicting previous statements/hype which from story perspective sounds like overwritting something. Yeah I am talking about word people hate or dislike at least, this word is retconn.

buu saga

The best Gotenks's case: post ssj3 gotenks > post ssj gotenks >(25% post ssj gotenks's power) ssj3 goku > pre ssj gotenks > (20% pre ssj gotenks) post base gotenks > pre base gotenks.

The worst Gotenks's case: post ssj3 gotenks >= post ssj gotenks >= (80-100% post ssj gotenks) ssj3 goku(possibly equal) > pre ssj gotenks > post base gotenks > pre base gotenks.

I can see Gotenks only getting five times more powerfull after comming out of rosat(completing rosat trening). Moreover I take Picoolo's impression of gotenks's power in base more like, now if we get chance to turn them in ssj and fuse them again, it could be different !. It also fit with super buu being at the most five times stronger then fat buu(who fought ssj3 goku)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This is a funny remark, because either Goku never told that to Boo and he is trying to calm Piccolo down or the author forgot Goku didn’t tell that or Goku told it off-screen. Whatever, Goku saying what he suposedly told Boo doesn’t confirm he is telling 100% truth. Actually, the part where he me mentions a strong person will appear strikes me as a strategy to lure Boo out of killing people and to give time to the boys master Fusion. Further, he reveals he decided to not beat Boo in order to the living ones figure out a way themselves.

I think Mr Toriyama forgot to put the lines. Him lying to Piccolo seems odd, plus he likely didn't say it off screen as the whole converstation between Boo and Goku was shown, and at the end he outright ignore Boo's question and leaves.
I still think the statement is true, regardless. Kamiccolo never made note of Gotenks beinf any weaker than the expected, plus i don't think Goku could suppress SSJ3.

[dragonball0900]

I can see Gotenks only getting five times more powerfull after comming out of rosat(completing rosat trening). Moreover I take Picoolo's impression of gotenks's power in base more like, now if we get chance to turn them in ssj and fuse them again, it could be different !. It also fit with super buu being at the most five times stronger then fat buu(who fought ssj3 goku)

The fusion lasts like 30 minutes, I doubt Piccolo would be saying the line he said if that means they would have to wait for 30 minutes for them to fuse again. There's also Piccolo saying that Gotenks (pre ROSAT) would not be a match for Super Buu even as SSJs, and then we have Trunks' line about their fusion in base being equal to a Buu (Super Buu) that is stronger than Fat Buu. They were all pretty much saying that Base Gotenks (post ROSAT) > SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT)

I think Mr Toriyama forgot to put the lines. Him lying to Piccolo seems odd, plus he likely didn't say it off screen as the whole converstation between Boo and Goku was shown, and at the end he outright ignore Boo's question and leaves.
I still think the statement is true, regardless. Kamiccolo never made note of Gotenks beinf any weaker than the expected, plus i don't think Goku could suppress SSJ3.

Actually Goku did supress his SSJ3 strenght, he confirmed it later to Vegeta when they were about to face Kid Buu, that he could've finished Fat Buu if he wanted to, but wanted the kids to do the job themselves. Goku was also saving time for Trunks to collect the radar, and another reason is that the SSJ3 transformation uses a lot of energy and that would make Goku's 1 day on earth less, so I think he was suppressing his transformation because of that too, if he went all out he would've killed Fat Buu and his time on Earth would be finished, and there would be no threat for the kids to defeat. It can also mean that SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) can still be below the suppressed SSJ3 Goku, to tie with what Goku told Fat Buu about someone that is stronger than him could face him.

That would mean that SSJ Gotenks (post ROSAT) > SSJ3 Goku (full) > Base Gotenks (post ROSAT) >= Super Buu (Piccolo and Trunks' expectations) > SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) > SSJ3 Goku (suppressed) >= Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta > Base Gotenks (pre ROSAT)

I know it's possible for SSJ2 Vegeta to be weaker than base Gotenks (pre), but everyone were surprised more because of the increase in power the fusion had rather than comparing his strenght to other foes like Vegeta or Fat Buu. I also think it's obvious that Gotenks would have to survive one way or another against Fat Buu or else there wouldn't be more story, and that scene where he arrived back to the palace was more comical than serious. I'm not saying that Vegeta has to be above Gotenks (pre), but I just want to try to justify the Daizenshuu line about them being below Vegeta before the ROSAT so that everything (manga and Daizenshuu) makes sense.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Actually Goku did supress his SSJ3 strenght, he confirmed it later to Vegeta when they were about to face Kid Buu, that he could've finished Fat Buu if he wanted to, but wanted the kids to do the job themselves. Goku was also saving time for Trunks to collect the radar, and another reason is that the SSJ3 transformation uses a lot of energy and that would make Goku's 1 day on earth less, so I think he was suppressing his transformation because of that too, if he went all out he would've killed Fat Buu and his time on Earth would be finished, and there would be no threat for the kids to defeat. It can also mean that SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) can still be below the suppressed SSJ3 Goku, to tie with what Goku told Fat Buu about someone that is stronger than him could face him.

That would mean that SSJ Gotenks (post ROSAT) > SSJ3 Goku (full) > Base Gotenks (post ROSAT) >= Super Buu (Piccolo and Trunks' expectations) > SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT) > SSJ3 Goku (suppressed) >= Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta > Base Gotenks (pre ROSAT)

I know it's possible for SSJ2 Vegeta to be weaker than base Gotenks (pre), but everyone were surprised more because of the increase in power the fusion had rather than comparing his strenght to other foes like Vegeta or Fat Buu. I also think it's obvious that Gotenks would have to survive one way or another against Fat Buu or else there wouldn't be more story, and that scene where he arrived back to the palace was more comical than serious. I'm not saying that Vegeta has to be above Gotenks (pre), but I just want to try to justify the Daizenshuu line about them being below Vegeta before the ROSAT so that everything (manga and Daizenshuu) makes sense.

I don't think he actually can suppress SSJ3. He can barely maintain the form and has little to no usage with it so i heavily doubt it's possible to suppress SSJ forms before mastering them. The fact that he didn't kill Boo doesn't mean he was suppressed, only that he didn't try to kill him.

As for Gotenks/SSJ2 Vegeta, the way everybody was happy at Gotenks' tells his base is pretty strong, the way i see it is that he's above the SSJ2s. I don't see any of them celebrating like that if it was a SSJ2 Goku there, for example.
Also, if Gotenks surviving a fight is plot, then the plot made him strong enough to do so. Plus i don't see how a scene being gag actually disregard it's value. Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre was a scene for the lols too, and we are taking it seriously. A lot of moments in Part I were made for comedy's sake, like Kuririn vs Jackie Chun, and they aren't disregard because of this.

I can still see Majin Vegeta > Base Gotenks being possible for those who prefer the 50x for SSJ though. As long as Gotenks is stronger than the SSJ boys and Kamiccolo, it's all fine for me.

[Darkprince410]

This is one of the most difficult things for me to figure out. The thing is, the Daizenshuu says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only after the ROSAT training, but we don't know which form they are talking about, base? SSJ? SSJ3? However we have some other data about Gotenks' strenght in the manga.

Well, there are two things to take note here. One, it could very well be about Gotenks' base form, given that a picture of that particular form is shown as accompaniment to the entry regarding the comparison between him and Vegeta.

Alternately, it could be something not even in reference to strength, but rather sheer transformations. The Daizenshuu entry specifically mentions Gotenks "leveling up", as in reaching new levels. What's the one level he obtained within the Room of Spirit and Time that all the other Saiyans but Goku had yet to achieve at the time? Super Saiyan 3. So in him "leveling up" to Super Saiyan 3, he passed up Vegeta, Gohan, and all the other Saiyans, apart from Goku, leaving the entry valid but not being an actual mention of strength.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think he actually can suppress SSJ3. He can barely maintain the form and has little to no usage with it so i heavily doubt it's possible to suppress SSJ forms before mastering them. The fact that he didn't kill Boo doesn't mean he was suppressed, only that he didn't try to kill him.

I think he meant Goku wasn’t fighting seriously, so if he intended to win he could possibly put up more power than in normal conditions.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think he meant Goku wasn’t fighting seriously, so if he intended to win he could possibly put up more power than in normal conditions.

If Goku wasn't putting all of his power, then he was suppressed. I think Goku was just not trying to kill Boo, pulling his punches, not charging his blasts, and similiar stuff.

Well, there are two things to take note here. One, it could very well be about Gotenks' base form, given that a picture of that particular form is shown as accompaniment to the entry regarding the comparison between him and Vegeta.

The Base Gotenks image is only for the page though. On the real Daizenshuu there is a picture of all Gotenks' forms according to Herms:
viewtopic.php?p=736141#p736141

[ahill1]

This is one of the most difficult things for me to figure out. The thing is, the Daizenshuu says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only after the ROSAT training, but we don't know which form they are talking about, base? SSJ? SSJ3? However we have some other data about Gotenks' strenght in the manga.

Well, there are two things to take note here. One, it could very well be about Gotenks' base form, given that a picture of that particular form is shown as accompaniment to the entry regarding the comparison between him and Vegeta.

Alternately, it could be something not even in reference to strength, but rather sheer transformations. The Daizenshuu entry specifically mentions Gotenks "leveling up", as in reaching new levels. What's the one level he obtained within the Room of Spirit and Time that all the other Saiyans but Goku had yet to achieve at the time? Super Saiyan 3. So in him "leveling up" to Super Saiyan 3, he passed up Vegeta, Gohan, and all the other Saiyans, apart from Goku, leaving the entry valid but not being an actual mention of strength.

That's a good alternative explanation, regarding the "sheer transformations" one. I hadn't thought about it. BTW, how strong do you have pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks?

[TheUltimateNinja]

This is one of the most difficult things for me to figure out. The thing is, the Daizenshuu says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only after the ROSAT training, but we don't know which form they are talking about, base? SSJ? SSJ3? However we have some other data about Gotenks' strenght in the manga.

Well, there are two things to take note here. One, it could very well be about Gotenks' base form, given that a picture of that particular form is shown as accompaniment to the entry regarding the comparison between him and Vegeta.

Alternately, it could be something not even in reference to strength, but rather sheer transformations. The Daizenshuu entry specifically mentions Gotenks "leveling up", as in reaching new levels. What's the one level he obtained within the Room of Spirit and Time that all the other Saiyans but Goku had yet to achieve at the time? Super Saiyan 3. So in him "leveling up" to Super Saiyan 3, he passed up Vegeta, Gohan, and all the other Saiyans, apart from Goku, leaving the entry valid but not being an actual mention of strength.

That's a good alternative explanation, regarding the "sheer transformations" one. I hadn't thought about it. BTW, how strong do you have pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks?

I personally have him a good deal stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[Steven Bloodriver]

This is one of the most difficult things for me to figure out. The thing is, the Daizenshuu says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only after the ROSAT training, but we don't know which form they are talking about, base? SSJ? SSJ3? However we have some other data about Gotenks' strenght in the manga.

When Gotenks was SSJ for the first time and went to confront Fat Buu (after a lot of circles around the Earth and resting, etc), Piccolo was only worried about Gotenks' time limit of the fusion (which is 30 minutes if I remember correctly), not about Gotenks losing like how he did when he went in base against him. This is Piccolo directly telling them they won't win agaisnt Fat Buu in base:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

Piccolo wanted them to be SSJs, in their base they wouldn't be enough at all.

That heavily implies that Gotenks in SSJ form before the ROSAT was already stronger than Fat Buu (though we don't know if he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku or not). One thing for sure is that Gotenks as SSJ is not enough to be as strong as Super Buu (initial):

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Then when they were in the ROSAT against Super Buu, Trunks talked about how Gotenks' base regular form could be equal to the initial Super Buu that's stronger than Fat Buu:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

You can say Trunks was talking about SSJ form, but that wouldn't make sense since they initially began their fight vs Super Buu with base Gotenks, not SSJ Gotenks. And then we have Piccolo's line:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

Piccolo didn't know Gotenks can transform into SSJ from base at that time.

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P5.3
Piccolo: “Oh! So he can become a Super Saiyan even after Fusion?!”

Mixing this with Trunks' line about base Gotenks being equal to Super Buu, that means that Base Gotenks is equal to Super Buu (Piccolo's and Trunks's expectations, not at full power), who would be stronger than SSJ Gotenks (pre ROSAT), who would be stronger than Fat Buu.

Now the Daizenshuu says that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after the ROSAT training, but as I said before, we don't know if the Daizenshuu was talking about SSJ or just in base. Judging by the information I've gathered, we can conclude that the Daizenshuu was referring to Gotenks' base. Considering that Goku was not mentioned as being surpassed, then SSJ3 Goku would be above Base Gotenks (post ROSAT), then we can say:

SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Post ROSAT) = Super Buu (Piccolo's and Trunks' expectations) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre ROSAT) > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta > Base Gotenks (Pre ROSAT)

The x50 multiplier won't be able to work for Gotenks' fusion though. It probably should be x2 or something like that. Also I think it's logical to say that SSJ Gotenks (Post ROSAT) would be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Trunks and Goten from the World Tournament Saga were already stronger than their fathers had been in the beginning of the Androids Saga. As Super Saiyans, both Trunks and Goten from the Saga of the 25th Budokai could have easily beaten the likes of Super Saiyan Goku, Super Saiyan Vegeta, Super Saiyan Future Trunks, Piccolo (Fused With Kami), Android 16, Android 17, Android 18, Android 19, Android 20, and Imperfect Cell (Prelude to Perfection). Gotenks, before going into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train, could have made short work of Super Vegeta, Super Trunks, Semi-Perfect Cell, and an initial Perfect Cell who while not even used to his own increased power yet, had defeated Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta like if it was absolutely nothing for him to have done in the very first place to begin with. As a Super Saiyan, Gotenks, and again without having gone inside the Room of Spirit and Time, could have singlehandedly won the Cell Games as Perfect Cell and even Super Perfect Cell would have been just barely strong enough to give a good warm up to the Fusion Dance Warrior. If Goku had taught Trunks and Goten the Fusion Dance before the stupidity of both Vegeta and Shin had begun, Super Saiyan Gotenks could have helped Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan deal with the evil as hell Majin Spopovich, Majin Yamu, Babidi, Majin Dabura, Majin Pui Pui, Majin Yakon, Majin Vegeta, because Vegeta would have felt himself be humiliated by being in the presence of real warriors, and even if Majin Buu had been reborn, due toward Majin Vegeta's insistence on being a complete and utter dumbass, Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan Gotenks would have been more than enough to completely obliterate Majin Buu.

Hell, if I was in Gotenks' shoes, right as he would have been born from the Fusion Dance of Trunks and Goten for the first time in the Dragon Ball Z series. I would have very instantly and very respectfully asked Mr. Piccolo and Lady Bulma each for a favor, with me asking for Mr. Piccolo's help in creating the materials needed for my half-mother, Bulma, to work with, and then Bulma's expertise in quickly creating a total of four Metamo-Rings, but with this variant of the Metamo-Ring also having the capability of working on a being formed from the Fusion Dance. Upon fulfilling my two requests, I would have thanked them both, before putting on a pair of the Metamo-Rings and flying on off to New Namek, with the second pair of Metamo-Rings in tow. (In the possible event of them being needed as replacements for the originals.) Through my sheer force of will, I would have been able to transform into a Super Saiyan, allowing me to liquefy the little amount of Oxygen I had left in my lungs, essentially giving me more than enough Oxygen to last for a few hours, with which with my speed, clocking at over several times the speed of light, would have been just enough to make it to my destination of the New Planet Namek. Once there, I would have went to go see Grand Elder Moori, in order to kindly ask him to unlock my own hidden potential and then summon Porunga. (Of course, after the Grand Elder Namekian had given me the very same Unlock Potential state as Son Gohan and Uncle Krillin, my power would have far surpassed the strength of Majin Buu.) Through Grand Elder Moori's own words, Porunga would be summoned, ready to grant my three wishes. The first wish, would be for me to become Xeno Gotenks permanently and without consequence, by having Time Patroller Trunks and Time Patroller Goten replace Trunks and Goten, as Trunks and Goten would have only gotten in the way in the long run, the second, would have been for Super Saiyan 3 Xeno Bardock, from upon kicking Mira's stupid butt at the end of their fight, Gine, from just before Frieza’s Supernova had destroyed Planet Vegeta, Brianne de Chateau, from her very debut within Dragon Ball Super, but with her being an actual Magical Girl in general and not a parody of one, as she really isn't attractive as Ribrianne, and Super Saiyan God Yamoshi, from the final moments of his Super Saiyan God form being active, all being transported through space-time to the Paprika Wasteland. (During the Z Fighters gathering to face the Saiyan threat in the Vegeta Saga.). And then the third, would be for Goku, or rather his past self, who would have been traveling at the time of the Vegeta Saga through Snake Way in order to get to the Check-in-Station, to become immune towards sickness and possession from Zamasu, also before for himself and myself to be sent to where the Z Warriors were at the moment. (Just after the likes of Super Saiyan 3 Xeno Bardock, Gine, Brianne de Chateau, and Super Saiyan God Yamoshi had arrived before the Earth's Special Forces, Nappa, and Vegeta.) Right before, those who would have been fast enough to track my movements, would have seen me powering down from my Super Saiyan form and then instantly dispatching Nappa with my Splitting Headache, before unleashing all of my power into my Galactic Donuts, powering them up with all of the power I had gained from Grand Elder Moori unlocking my potential and using them toward trapping Vegeta in a ball made of my own energy, so as to kill him with the Charging Ultra Buu Buu Volleyball. (Through chucking Vegeta with all of my might through the vastness of space and straight into the ass of Frieza on Planet Frieza No. 79.) I would then have explained everything to Goku and the others, which would had taken a few months to do, so I would have asked them and then Kami to enter the Hyperbolic Time Chamber before telling them literally everything, especially the really juicy details, but while also we would have taken the time to train ourselves. Spending an entire year inside of the Room of Spirit and Time and improving so much in the process, anyone of us individually would have been capable of killing Future Android 17 and Future Android 18 together in a single blow. (Training under each of the other warriors with me wouldn't have been everything I would have been doing either, transforming myself into a true Human being as I would have tried my best to befriend everyone else, especially connecting with Brianne de Chateau, would also be a top priority for me.) The new and improved Z-Fighters, by surpassing their own limits by learning Ultra Instinct "Omen" and having firsthand knowledge of my warnings, conveniently would have given the Planet Trade Organization, Red Ribbon Army Remnants, Premier of Majins, Destruction Deities, Angels of Death, Commeson Clones, Makaiōshins, Archangels, and Omni-Kings a beating aggressively much more deserving then what they would have ever received from a Goku who had completely masterfully perfected his Ultra Instinct "Omen" state.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I wouldn't put too much stock in what Trunks, Goku, or Piccolo have to say about base Gotenks, or what the Daizenshuu (possibly) implies about him, either. Why? Well, because they were all wrong! You see, Gohan was the one Super Boo railed against for being stronger than him. SSJ3 Gotenks was only ever described as being Super Boo's equal (maybe). So at best, base Gotenks would have to be hundreds of times weaker than the Boo he fought.

Since Super Boo was heavily implied to be stronger than Goku, I always figured "Super Gotenks" was stronger than Goku too, but probably less than twice as strong. But after recently revisiting the manga, now I would argue that the gap is probably pretty minimal. Probably less than 30%! I'll explain why in a moment. First I just want to acknowledge up front that this is all 100% my own headcanon. I like to rely on character statements and things like that as much as possible, but I also recognize that my interpretation of those statements is totally subjective. I'm not trying to pass it off as anything else! Anyway, I basically operate on four assumptions:

1. That Goku's full power as a Super Saiyan is 3,000 kiri
2. That the amount of energy needed to revive Fat Boo is equivalent to his power
3. That Pure Boo is slightly inferior to SSJ3 Goku's full power
4. That Boo's absorptions work by adding his victim's power to his own


1. Goku's full power as a Super Saiyan is 3,000 kiri

This one's really straightforward! Assuming we're meant to take the "3,000 kiri" reading seriously, figuring out Goku's other levels is a cinch, and from there, we can use that as a reference point for Gotenks and Boo. As per the SEG, SSJ2 is supposed to be twice as strong as SSJ, and SSJ3 is supposed to be four times stronger than that. So Goku's levels for the Boo arc (expressed in kiri) would look like this:

Base: 60
SSJ: 3,000
SSJ2: 6,000
SSJ3: 24,000


2. The amount of energy needed to revive Fat Boo is equivalent to his power

Here's where I'll begin to wildly speculate.

After Gohan's energy is deposited into Boo's tank, Babidi says that Gohan's energy is "almost half of what we need" and you see a little meter indicating that it's a bit short of the 50% mark. While the exact figure is pretty much up to your imagination, I think the simplest interpretation of "almost half" would be about 40%.

But how strong is SSJ2 Gohan? Well, this thread [viewtopic.php?t=15302] details how Gohan's kiri reading at the tournament could be interpreted as being about 4,000. Interestingly, (in the anime) Dabra talks about how 4,000 kiri isn't enough to defeat him, and Gohan does appear to be slightly inferior to Dabra. So I think the least complicated reading of the material is that "almost half" of the energy needed to revive Boo is 40%, and that amount of energy is 4,000 kiri. It gives us a nice round number to work with!

And if 40% of Fat Boo's power is 4,000 kiri, 100% of his power would be 10,000 kiri. So now we have:

Gohan: 40
-SSJ: 2,000
-SSJ2: 4,000
Fat Boo: 10,000

How do I know that the energy needed to revive Fat Boo is the same thing as his strength, at least in his current form? Well, I don't really. But Kaiōshin does say something interesting on the topic that implies that this just might be the case. When Majin Boo reaches full power, but to everyone's shock his egg/cocoon/ball/whatever is apparently empty, Kaiōshin speculates that Boo may have grown so weak over the years that the energy Babidi collected had actually killed him instead.

"He must have grown weaker in his years of hibernation -- so the energy killed him!"

While Kaiōshin did turn out to be dead wrong about this -- because Kaiōshin's job in the plot is to be wrong about literally everything -- the implication seems to be that Boo's strength is in some way related to his ability to receive the collected energy; that because he hadn't grown weaker, instead of killing him, the energy "recharged" him. You know, kind of like how when Goku absorbed the Genki Dama during the Tournament of Power, it recharged him, instead of just killing him.

Of course, it is possible that the energy needed to revive Fat Boo could still be much lower than his full power; but I don't think it could have been too much lower. I'll get deeper into that later. So for now, the rankings would look like this:


Gohan (SSJ2): 4,000
Goku/Vegeta (SSJ2): 6,000
Fat Boo: 10,000
Goku (SSJ3): 24,000


3. Pure Boo is slightly inferior to SSJ3 Goku's full power

I think most people would agree with me on this one. SSJ3 Goku seems to have a slight advantage on Fat Boo, but we later learn that he was holding back a lot of power to stall for the kids, implying that when he fights Pure Boo later, he's using a bit more power than he used before. But, it's still not his full power, as he tells Vegeta later. Again, the exact figures would be pretty arbitrary, but I think the simplest possible breakdown is that Goku was using 50% against Fat Boo, and 75% against Pure Boo. If that were the case, Goku's SSJ3 levels would look like this:

50%: 12,000
75%: 18,000
100%: 24,000

Goku being at 12,000 during his first battle with Boo fits in nicely with that Boo being 10,000 or so above. But what about Pure Boo? Well, Goku tells Vegeta that if he can build up his ki for a full minute, he'll have enough power to obliterate Boo (as opposed to just matching him), meaning Pure Boo has to be weaker than 24,000. So I figure the highest Pure Boo can be is around 20,000 or so, about a 20% difference from Goku's 24,000. Still seems pretty close, I guess, but with a 10% lead over Dodoria, Vegeta was able to vaporize him with a ki blast, so I'm thinking Goku planned to finish Boo off with a Kamehameha or something. He seems to like those.

Anyway, here's the updated ranking:

Gohan (SSJ2): 4,000
Goku/Vegeta (SSJ2): 6,000
Fat Boo: 10,000
Goku (SSJ3, 50%): 12,000
Goku (SSJ3, 75%): 18,000
Pure Boo: 20,000
Goku (SSJ3, 100%): 24,000


4. Boo's absorptions work by adding his victim's power to his own

Before I get into this last point, you probably noticed by now that I'm also operating under the assumption that Super Boo is in fact stronger than SSJ3 Goku. I don't really have anything new to say on the matter, so let's just take it for granted to avoid reviving that particular headache, okay? The manga strongly implies it, while the anime does not. You may prefer the anime's version of events, but I'm mainly talking about the manga here. So please don't tell me about how Goku fought Ultimate Gohan inside Boo's brain or whatever, or how Pure Boo is the "strongest" one. We've all heard it before!

But what do I really have to say in this section? Not much! I just think it's more logical to just assume that Boo's absorptions are additive rather than guessing at some totally random multiplier. You might disagree with me here, and to be fair I don't really have a good defense. It's just easier this way, okay?

One thing I do want to suggest here is that Pure Boo is essentially the same thing as Thin Boo, meaning they should have about the same power. Here, I'll Boo-splain it to you:

You see, Majin Boo was originally pure evil, and his power only weakened after absorbing the good-hearted Dai-Kaiōshin; then in the main story, he splits into a pure good half and a pure evil half, essentially undoing his earlier absorption. The evil half ("Thin Boo") overpowers the good half ("Fat Boo"), and turns him into a cookie, eats him, and adds his power to his own, becoming "Super Boo". Well, technically that's not his real name. You could also call him "Evil Boo", if you like to make things complicated.

Confused yet?

In other words, Thin Boo is essentially just Pure Boo + Dai-Kaiōshin - Dai-Kaiōshin, so I figure he's gotta have about the same strength as Pure Boo since they are fundamentally the same being. But how come they don't look the same, you ask? I don't know. Probably because Pure Boo (and by extension Dai-Kaiōshin) as a concept came later. It was a retcon. Go ask Toriyama!

Anyway, going by the logic that Fat Boo + Thin Boo = Super Boo, you get 30,000 kiri for Super Boo.

If you're with me with all of that, Majin Boo's levels up to now would look something like this:

Fat Boo: 10,000
Thin Boo/Pure Boo: 20,000
Super Boo: 30,000

Now you can probably see why Pure Boo can't be much higher than 20,000. Even if we bumped him up to 25,000, he would be too much for SSJ3 Goku. At the same time, you could bump Fat Boo up to 15,000, but then Super Boo would be pretty much even with Goku's 24,000 as a SSJ3. Plus, that would mean that the gap between Fat Boo and Thin Boo is only 30% or so. Which would be perfectly fine, but the way the narrator and Piccolo talk about Thin Boo getting the overwhelming majority of the power, and Fat Boo not having a chance, it makes it sound like the gap should be a lot higher. But that's just my own sense of things. At 10,000, the gap between these two Boos would be 100%.

So you can't really move either Boo too much in either direction! Either you end up making Super Boo too close to Goku, or you wind up making Fat Boo too close to Thin Boo/Pure Boo.

What does all of this have to do with Gotenks? Well, if you agree with me on all of this, then SSJ3 Gotenks' power is pretty much a given; since he's pretty consistently described as being about equal with Super Boo, it would stand to reason that Gotenks must be at 30,000 kiri as well. At that level, he's stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but only by 25%. Don't ask me how that's supposed to work with the SEG multipliers. It's messy, all right? But I have some ideas about that too, if anyone's interested. Just for funsies, though, here's how I see all of the major players, compared to Gotenks's 30,000 kiri:

Boo:

-Fat: 10,000
-Thin/Pure: 20,000
-Super: 30,000
-Super (Gotenks-Dominant): 60,000
-Super (Gohan-Dominant): 60,000-120,000*

*Since Ultimate Gohan is between 30,000 and 60,000 kiri (see below), and Super Boo's power would have dropped back to around 30,000 after Gotenks' time limit ran out, Boo (Gohan-Dominant) must be somewhere between 60,000 and 120,000 kiri. If I had to pick a number for Super Boo (Gohan-Dominant), I'd put him at about 80,000 kiri, based on my guess for Ultimate Gohan below.

Gohan:

-Base: 40
-SSJ: 2,000
-SSJ2: 4,000
-Ultimate: 30,000-60,000*

*Since Super Boo (Gotenks-Dominant) is at 60,000 kiri, and Super Boo is at 30,000 kiri, I figure Ultimate Gohan has to be somewhere in between, since he was stronger than Super Boo, but weaker than Super Boo with Gotenks absorbed. So if I had to pick a number for Ultimate Gohan, I'd put him at about 50,000 kiri. That would make him about twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku, tying into things like how Boo was able to sense Gohan from Earth before the ritual was completed.


Goku:

-Base: 60
-SSJ: 3,000
-SSJ2: 6,000
-SSJ3 (50%): 12,000
-SSJ3 (75%): 18,000
-SSJ3 (100%): 24,000


Vegeta:

-Base: 40-60*
-SSJ: 2,000-3,000
-SSJ2: 4,000-6,000
-SSJ2 (Majin): 6,000

*Before having Babidi release his dormant power, Vegeta is stronger than Gohan (40 kiri) but still weaker than Goku (60 kiri) since he accepts Babidi's offer in the first place; the rest of his levels derive from that. Goku states during and after his battle with Majin Vegeta that they were completely equal, so Majin Vegeta is at 6,000 kiri as well. But if I had to pick a number for Vegeta before his power up, I would probably put his base at 50 kiri, making his SSJ form 2,500 kiri, and his SSJ2 form 5,000 kiri. That way, the gap between Vegeta and Gohan is about the same as the gap between Goku and Vegeta. You can see why the guy was so frustrated the whole time!

[GreatSaiyaman123]

...

Nice breakdown, but i'd disagree with a lot of that...

First, i don't think SSJ Goku's Full Power is 3,000. Vegeta wasn't aware that Goku surpased Kid Gohan until he use his SSJ2 burst.


I don't think the meter is a good way to gauge Boo's power either. Why? Because Boo's power is bottomless, like Mr Toriyama said on a interview:

(15) What is Majin Buu's power level?
- Giovanni Toso, London, England
T: The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, Majin But himself probably doesn't know the answer.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17921

Boo's constantly getting stronger when enraged. At begining he starts with a power Gohan could defeat on his own, but at the end he's able to fight toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku, who doesn't seem to be taking the fight lightly.

It's completely possible Boo showed a power only ~2-3x stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, but this level is only a glass ceiling that was surpassed as soon as he powered up.

Also, Goku was never suppressed as a SSJ3. He has only recently achieved the form and it's strain is too taxing on his body, i heavily doubt he has control to a point he can suppress, even more when it's heavily implied regular SSJs, a form that is much less taxing on the body than the SSJ3, cannot suppress their powers.

Also, Goku told Vegeta he would go all out from the start against Pure. Infortunately i can't find the quote on the strength checker, but it's between the Rock Papers Scissors and the begining of the fight, and Goku says something like "I better go full throttle!" or something along those lines.


I dunno about Evil Boo ~ Pure Boo. The narrator states Boo's power was split, and the Evil one got the bigger piece:

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

I'd Evil Boo is more the manifestation of Fatso's evil than a variation of Pure Boo. He still has some details from the Kaioshin on him, such as Dai Kaioshin's jacket and South Kaioshin's chin.

I don't know about Boo being additive here... Super Boo is a evil version of Fat Boo, right? I'd say with the Evil on his heart, he was able to draw more from his bottomless power. The reason i say that is because of Gotenks. I mean, SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo is pretty much indeniable fact, and he achieves a mega power up on the Rosat, surpassing his former SSJ self and that's not even counting the fact that he unlocked SSJ3 in there. Even disregarding SEG multipliers, i dunno if one can squeeze all of Gotenks' powers in there.

IMO the powers would go like this:
[spoiler]Gohan: 7.5
~ SSJ: 75
~ SSJ2: 375
~ Potential Unlocked: 250,000

Vegeta (PM): 9
~ SSJ: 90
~ SSJ2: 450

Goku/Majin Vegeta: 11.25
~ SSJ: 112.5
~ SSJ2: 562.5
~ SSJ3 Goku: 5,625

Fat Boo: 5,000
~ Good: 2,000
~ Evil: 3,000
~ Super: 150,000
~ +Gotenks: 300,000
~ +Gohan: 400,000

Gotenks: 3,000
~ SSJ: 7,500
~ Post Rosat: 15,000
~ SSJ: 37,500
~ SSJ2: 75,000
~ SSJ3: 150,000[/spoiler]

[Hugo Boss]

Also, Goku was never suppressed as a SSJ3. He has only recently achieved the form and it's strain is too taxing on his body, i heavily doubt he has control to a point he can suppress, even more when it's heavily implied regular SSJs, a form that is much less taxing on the body than the SSJ3, cannot suppress their powers.

Also, Goku told Vegeta he would go all out from the start against Pure. Infortunately i can't find the quote on the strength checker, but it's between the Rock Papers Scissors and the begining of the fight, and Goku says something like "I better go full throttle!" or something along those lines.

I don’t think Goku was deliberately suppressing his power against the fat Boo, but he could fight harder. I think going all-out could either mean using SS3 or fight as hard as he could in that form.

I don't know about Boo being additive here... Super Boo is a evil version of Fat Boo, right? I'd say with the Evil on his heart, he was able to draw more from his bottomless power. The reason i say that is because of Gotenks. I mean, SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo is pretty much indeniable fact, and he achieves a mega power up on the Rosat, surpassing his former SSJ self and that's not even counting the fact that he unlocked SSJ3 in there. Even disregarding SEG multipliers, i dunno if one can squeeze all of Gotenks' powers in there.

As you said, even the author has difficulty in telling Boo’s powerlevel. My impression is that he decided that Gotenks and Gohan didn’t fit the position and the people involved worked around a way to make Goku the strongest in the end and Gotenks and Gohan not as strong as they were building up.

[Cipher]

Ignoring the Daizenshuu quotes, because, honestly, whatever, I agree with the GreatSaiyaman123's earliest post above that the story only makes sense if Super Saiyan Gotenks (before going into the RoSaT) could be expected to be stronger than the power Super Saiyan 3 shows in his fight with Fat Boo.

Super Saiyan Gotenks would have had more than a decent chance of defeating fat Boo, then, with only Boo's transformation necessitating Goten and Trunks training in the Room of Spirit and Time.

I've never gotten caught up in the numbers here, but it always seemed like the arc gave a pretty straight hierarchy of Gohan, Gotenks (after training), Super Saiyan 3 Goku (possibly equal to Gotenks before training), and Vegeta, in descending order. With Fat Boo being a bit weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan Gotenks prior to training, and Super Boo being a bit stronger than Gotenks after training.

Pure Boo would then be slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, or at least any power he can muster in his living body, which makes sense of everything that happens in the Kaioshin Realm too.

So, right? Something like this:

Gohan > Super Boo ≥ Gotenks (post-training) > Pure Boo > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Super Saiyan 3 Goku (for all practical purposes) ≥ Fat Boo > Base Gotenks (pre-training) ≥ Vegeta

Base Gotenks could be slightly weaker than Vegeta, of course, but not the point that characters wouldn't be able to put hope in him once he transformed. (So, on that note, I guess the Daizenshuu quote could make absolute sense if it were talking about his base form.)

Does the story make sense any other way?