Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Swapping 5 second punches against a Goku SSB contained mean what? Gohan said he wanted his father to use all his power, in this case the Blue Kaioken. There's nothing to stop Blue Goku from holding on as he did against all his opponents in recruiting. And EP 120 makes it clear that Goku and Vegeta SSB >>> Gohan. After all, Gohan preferred to fight and expend energy while sparing his father and Vegeta to face U11. Not to mention that Gohan ALSO said he was using all his power against Goku SSJ2.

On Toppo, Goku told Vegeta that he did not know if he could beat him, even in the Blue form (he did not say Kaioken). Indicating that only with SSB, defeat was not certain, he could win

When you are not sure of something you have to be careful and put your best foot forward. Which is what Goku did against Toppo going KK Blue. Cause Toppo himself was holding back power. Even the grand priest stated one of them might kill each other as they go full power. Now we have more confirmation again, Toppo isn't even using full power against Blue Vegeta, he is clearly above Blue level.

Gohan traded blows against Blue while at the same time tanking punches and knocking back Blue Goku with his own. That shows he is around that level.

You think Goku's power went up so much in like 30 minutes his tired SSG state was above his SSB state from before? It was made pretty clear at the end that mastered berserk Kale<tired SSG Goku<base Kefla<tired SSB Goku

Goku was recovering stamina as he was battling. Goku was so strong they even questioned if he was using UI against Caulifla and Kale while in SSJ2. Caulifla even asks if this is "the same super saiyan 2 power" she faced from before after being pushed back by his punch. Whis even states that Goku's "senses are getting sharper" facing the U6 saiyan girls. If Goku was holding back like many claim why was he worried about Berserker Kale again? Why was he "not confident" in victory? All evidence points to Goku gaining strength now than before.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Swapping 5 second punches against a Goku SSB contained mean what? Gohan said he wanted his father to use all his power, in this case the Blue Kaioken. There's nothing to stop Blue Goku from holding on as he did against all his opponents in recruiting. And EP 120 makes it clear that Goku and Vegeta SSB >>> Gohan. After all, Gohan preferred to fight and expend energy while sparing his father and Vegeta to face U11. Not to mention that Gohan ALSO said he was using all his power against Goku SSJ2.

On Toppo, Goku told Vegeta that he did not know if he could beat him, even in the Blue form (he did not say Kaioken). Indicating that only with SSB, defeat was not certain, he could win

When you are not sure of something you have to be careful and put your best foot forward. Which is what Goku did against Toppo going KK Blue. Cause Toppo himself was holding back power. Even the grand priest stated one of them might kill each other as they go full power. Now we have more confirmation again, Toppo isn't even using full power against Blue Vegeta, he is clearly above Blue level.

Gohan traded blows against Blue while at the same time tanking punches and knocking back Blue Goku with his own. That shows he is around that level.

You think Goku's power went up so much in like 30 minutes his tired SSG state was above his SSB state from before? It was made pretty clear at the end that mastered berserk Kale<tired SSG Goku<base Kefla<tired SSB Goku

Goku was recovering stamina as he was battling. Goku was so strong they even questioned if he was using UI against Caulifla and Kale while in SSJ2. Caulifla even asks if this is "the same super saiyan 2 power" she faced from before after being pushed back by his punch. Whis even states that Goku's "senses are getting sharper" facing the U6 saiyan girls. If Goku was holding back like many claim why was he worried about Berserker Kale again? Why was he "not confident" in victory? All evidence points to Goku gaining strength now than before.

Can we just keep toppo at ssb level? Leys not put him above that until he shows his full power

[perucho1990]

[
Tired goku is just tired. As far as i know, one does not lose over 10× more power for being tired to the extend goku is. 2x weaker probably, but not 10×.

Tired Goku got out of the blackhole while 17 was on his knees, at this point we should consider everything tired Goku does as outliers imo.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Swapping 5 second punches against a Goku SSB contained mean what? Gohan said he wanted his father to use all his power, in this case the Blue Kaioken. There's nothing to stop Blue Goku from holding on as he did against all his opponents in recruiting. And EP 120 makes it clear that Goku and Vegeta SSB >>> Gohan. After all, Gohan preferred to fight and expend energy while sparing his father and Vegeta to face U11. Not to mention that Gohan ALSO said he was using all his power against Goku SSJ2.

On Toppo, Goku told Vegeta that he did not know if he could beat him, even in the Blue form (he did not say Kaioken). Indicating that only with SSB, defeat was not certain, he could win

When you are not sure of something you have to be careful and put your best foot forward. Which is what Goku did against Toppo going KK Blue. Cause Toppo himself was holding back power. Even the grand priest stated one of them might kill each other as they go full power. Now we have more confirmation again, Toppo isn't even using full power against Blue Vegeta, he is clearly above Blue level.

Gohan traded blows against Blue while at the same time tanking punches and knocking back Blue Goku with his own. That shows he is around that level.

Well, post-fight statements show that there's nothing confirmed about Toppo over SSB.
In EP 83, Goku tells Vegeta that he did not know if Toppo would win, EVEN in the Blue form. He could have just said that about Blue Kaioken, but no, he just said about Blue, confirming that defeat was not right using just Blue

Goku used the Kaioken to show Toppo what happens when he goes beyond his limits. Neither of them had fought with all the power yet, so Daishinkan would not know who would win (he does not speak '' full power '' in the phrase).
Maybe Toppo really is above SSB, I'm not saying this can not happen. But I think until now this has not been so clear to define

Do you want to set Gohan's level with a 5 second "fight" with Goku Blue? With 2 punches? Gohan has never shown up to Blue level, this does not even make sense.

[JazzMazz]

No, that's not what I meant. No, she would not have lost if it wasn't for her morality issues. My point is that she never "lost" to Goku in a straight up fight as shown she could still keep on fighting but her fighting spirit was certainly starting to dwindle after Caulifa looked as if she was at her wits because you know, Caulifa is her emotional supporter. Goku, once again, never tried to ring out Kale by herself. Only then when Caulifa was done Goku then tried to eliminate Kale and Caulifa by breaking apart a stage.

Yeah, Kale in terms of fighting skills/combat skill is inferior to Caulifa and Goku.


SSJ Kefla had trouble? she was overpowering SSB Goku & still was holding back much more power than what everybody thought in the next episode. We don't know the full extent of Kale's power to be honest because she has never gotten the chance to fully utilize/demonstrate herself after Goku quickly tried to get rid of them. So I don't see how the episode outright shouts, to me, Kale is weaker than a tired ssg Goku and therefore diminish her feat against Blue is not legit.

So, everyone literally commenting on how Goku was in a completely different class to the universe 6 Saiyans, and being able to defend against base form Kefla, which was described as having power far greater than that when they were two people.

Not to mention Goku's attacks against Kale were sure as hell more effective than her attacks against him as a Super Saiyan God. At point blank range, he effortlessly tanks a blast from Kale and proceeds to kick in the face. He then later, creates two energy balls that not only go through Kale and Caulifla's combined assault, which Kale was only just barely able to properly deflect, after a great deal of time and effort.

These examples prove that Goku as a Super Saiyan God outclassed Kale. There were multiple examples when they were fighting, and even the spectators were commenting on how his way out of their league as a Super Saiyan God. Even giving Kale the benefit of the doubt and saying she could at least hold her own for a time and is thus at least comparable to SSG Goku, its still been demonstrated that Goku was out of her league through several raw feats of power. Also, I don't see how he was at all hurrying to end the fight.

Goku overall is just a better fighter than the U6 Saiyans, I don't think anyone is denying that. However, Kelfa likely was holding back just to use more of Goku to unlock more of her potential regardless if Goku being able to defend against her. Literally in the next episode showed she could have ended Goku at any given moment before he broke his shell — i.e, Ultra Instinct Omen. Given the impression on some of the comments — my main point here is that Kale never "lost" to Goku in a straight-up fight despite him having more of the rhythm here, he still couldn't do any damage to her in Super Saiyan God form.

Yes, it is impressive Goku can hold his own against the two female Saiyans, he has shown he could clearly have taken out Caulifa at any given moment. But, Kale, however? I don't agree as aforementioned.
Well just because Goku's attacked looked more effective than hers doesn't mean it is; she showed no signs taking any real damage.

You have two Saiyans with the biggest potential we have seen thus far. battle continuously kept on going+gets stronger at the most crucial moment=bad for Goku. Kale(in the right state of mind/an angry Kale) by herself is potentially dangerous in her own right if the battle were to keep on going(just her going into her Berserker form is enough to make Goku's body shake). What better way to get rid of them if one them is on there last standing leg, and the other one is losing their fighting spirit because their leader/master/protector can't continue anymore. I, too, would have taken the chance to quickly get rid of them by not actually aiming at them but destroy part of the stage to ring them out.

I think your missing the point of how the characters unlock their potential. They unlock their potential by pushing their limits, and they push their limits by fighting at the best they are able to at that time. Goku was pushing his limits by forcing himself to transform to match up against opponents of greater power.

Kelfa, as a Super Saiyan, was forced to better herself in order to have the power necessary to defeat Kaio Ken Goku(that doesn't necessarily mean she was that much more powerful than him though, as the victory was still a surprise and was more based around clever strategy than raw power). Next episode, she powers up to Super Saiyan 2, and at that point, I think its more than safe to say she is more power than Goku when he was using the Kaio Ken.

As for Kale, she was definitely out-matched against Super Saiyan God Goku. He doesn't need to drag on a long winded fight or even fully defeat her for that to be obvious, espicially since there were multiple examples throughout the fight where Goku was completely overpowering both Kale and Caulifla at the same time. You don't need to have Kale take damage, when the feats of Goku overpowering Kale speak for themselves. Thats not to say Kale probably couldn't hold her own against Super Saiyan God Goku, she definitely could, however, based on how Goku overpowering Kale multiple times throughout the fight, and with commentary supporting this idea that his way ahead of them in that form. Merely saying, but, she also didn't appear to be seriously injured doesn't prove that they are physically equal or even comparable. It doesn't prove your point. You haven't provided any real or substantial counter argument to the evidence that suggests Goku as a Super Saiyan God was way ahead of them in the fight. She literally never had any sort of advantage against Goku throughout the confrontation, even depsite Caulifla creating openings which Kale did exploit to no avail. Its true that Kale and Caulifla were also improving during their fight with Goku, however, when Goku went Super Saiyan God, that created a gap in power which they couldn't cross through merely fighting and improving as they were, thats the whole reason why they fused.

[buutenks]

Why dont we wait and see how FP Toppo does. So far, Vegeta has been one step ahead of Toppo, with Toppo only getting shots in when Vegeta wasnt paying attention.

[Dreamer]

So, everyone literally commenting on how Goku was in a completely different class to the universe 6 Saiyans, and being able to defend against base form Kefla, which was described as having power far greater than that when they were two people.

Not to mention Goku's attacks against Kale were sure as hell more effective than her attacks against him as a Super Saiyan God. At point blank range, he effortlessly tanks a blast from Kale and proceeds to kick in the face. He then later, creates two energy balls that not only go through Kale and Caulifla's combined assault, which Kale was only just barely able to properly deflect, after a great deal of time and effort.

These examples prove that Goku as a Super Saiyan God outclassed Kale. There were multiple examples when they were fighting, and even the spectators were commenting on how his way out of their league as a Super Saiyan God. Even giving Kale the benefit of the doubt and saying she could at least hold her own for a time and is thus at least comparable to SSG Goku, its still been demonstrated that Goku was out of her league through several raw feats of power. Also, I don't see how he was at all hurrying to end the fight.

Goku overall is just a better fighter than the U6 Saiyans, I don't think anyone is denying that. However, Kelfa likely was holding back just to use more of Goku to unlock more of her potential regardless if Goku being able to defend against her. Literally in the next episode showed she could have ended Goku at any given moment before he broke his shell — i.e, Ultra Instinct Omen. Given the impression on some of the comments — my main point here is that Kale never "lost" to Goku in a straight-up fight despite him having more of the rhythm here, he still couldn't do any damage to her in Super Saiyan God form.

Yes, it is impressive Goku can hold his own against the two female Saiyans, he has shown he could clearly have taken out Caulifa at any given moment. But, Kale, however? I don't agree as aforementioned.
Well just because Goku's attacked looked more effective than hers doesn't mean it is; she showed no signs taking any real damage.

You have two Saiyans with the biggest potential we have seen thus far. battle continuously kept on going+gets stronger at the most crucial moment=bad for Goku. Kale(in the right state of mind/an angry Kale) by herself is potentially dangerous in her own right if the battle were to keep on going(just her going into her Berserker form is enough to make Goku's body shake). What better way to get rid of them if one them is on there last standing leg, and the other one is losing their fighting spirit because their leader/master/protector can't continue anymore. I, too, would have taken the chance to quickly get rid of them by not actually aiming at them but destroy part of the stage to ring them out.

I think your missing the point of how the characters unlock their potential. They unlock their potential by pushing their limits, and they push their limits by fighting at the best they are able to at that time. Goku was pushing his limits by forcing himself to transform to match up against opponents of greater power.

Kelfa, as a Super Saiyan, was forced to better herself in order to have the power necessary to defeat Kaio Ken Goku(that doesn't necessarily mean she was that much more powerful than him though, as the victory was still a surprise and was more based around clever strategy than raw power). Next episode, she powers up to Super Saiyan 2, and at that point, I think its more than safe to say she is more power than Goku when he was using the Kaio Ken.

As for Kale, she was definitely out-matched against Super Saiyan God Goku. He doesn't need to drag on a long winded fight or even fully defeat her for that to be obvious, espicially since there were multiple examples throughout the fight where Goku was completely overpowering both Kale and Caulifla at the same time. You don't need to have Kale take damage, when the feats of Goku overpowering Kale speak for themselves. Thats not to say Kale probably couldn't hold her own against Super Saiyan God Goku, she definitely could, however, based on how Goku overpowering Kale multiple times throughout the fight, and with commentary supporting this idea that his way ahead of them in that form. Merely saying, but, she also didn't appear to be seriously injured doesn't prove that they are physically equal or even comparable. It doesn't prove your point. You haven't provided any real or substantial counter argument to the evidence that suggests Goku as a Super Saiyan God was way ahead of them in the fight. She literally never had any sort of advantage against Goku throughout the confrontation, even depsite Caulifla creating openings which Kale did exploit to no avail. Its true that Kale and Caulifla were also improving during their fight with Goku, however, when Goku went Super Saiyan God, that created a gap in power which they couldn't cross through merely fighting and improving as they were, thats the whole reason why they fused.

Kelfa, before Super Saiyan 2, is stronger than KK[times-insert-number] Goku. I never viewed blitzing behind someone super fast resulted in as part of her "clever" strategy, even so, I doubt Kelfa was even thinking that far ahead and more so just went with the flow as Goku couldn't react in time. It is a surprise because Goku's senses couldn't keep up with her at that point. Regardless of which, one can not dismiss the power of her kick was that of the level of the Genki Dama. Basically, it is implied Kelfa as a Super Saiyan was already that strong. It was even implied she wasn't even trying to win but prolong the fight long enough because she was having fun.
And I'm just saying, there are plenty of examples from Goku and other characters in the ToP where a character either gets blitzed from behind or blindsided by an attack and had no problems evading or counter-attacking a sneak attack as long there energy giving them away(E.g. Goku and Cabba).

Kale couldn't have been overpowered by a Super Saiyan God Goku when a)Kale had no signs of any damage and b)trading blows 3x against Goku as Super Saiyan God with almost no stop, which that in itself speaks volumes since it neither proves Goku having the advantage, she was far from being beaten and overpowered as you keep wording it. There weren't multiple comments to what you are referring to, as far as I know. Only Shin had made such a comment, but since when has his comments ever taken as a grain of salt? The same guy who claimed Caulifa was going give Goku trouble. Seriously injured? Kale wasn't injured or damaged at all. Nada, zip, zero, nothing. Without any real counter-argument, you can't dismiss these feats or claim she doesn't need to be hurt or she was overpowered, when in actuality, Caulifa was the only one that getting overpowered and couldn't do a thing to bridge the gap. Goku as a Super Saiyan God couldn't do anything to Kale but stall and keep her away from Caulifa, if that's what you call getting "overpowered".
You're greatly mistaken. Obviously, Goku doesn't need to defeat Kale, he just needs to ring her out even if it's by means a cheap shot. As I said before, the gap between Kale and SSG Goku isn't big as you are making it out to be, when comparing it to Caulifa, who was more than once getting bodied to the floor by SSG Goku each time. If there was such a big gap power-wise between the two, he would have bodied Kale to the floor the second she came into contact, he wouldn't be needing to be focusing most of his attention on Caulifa, and then quickly tries to wrap it up towards the end. Goku had the advantage, skill-wise. Both Kale and SSG Goku were equal in power. The episode is straightforward.

[dragon boss z]

You realized just as much Kale's attacks were ineffective(especially since Goku only broke through Kale's attack after she was distracted by Caullifa), Goku's attacks were also just as ineffective as hers, right?

No I don't realize that because that's not what happened. His ki blast cut through hers and she struggled to deflect it. Goku tanked hers. She didn't stop his kamehameha either. The only time they were presented to be close was when they were throwing hands, but that's it.

No, that's not what I meant. No, she would not have lost if it wasn't for her morality issues. My point is that she never "lost" to Goku in a straight up fight as shown she could still keep on fighting but her fighting spirit was certainly starting to dwindle after Caulifa looked as if she was at her wits because you know, Caulifa is her emotional supporter. Goku, once again, never tried to ring out Kale by herself. Only then when Caulifa was done Goku then tried to eliminate Kale and Caulifa by breaking apart a stage.

Goku said it was over and kamehamehad them off the stage. I'm not sure what else you want.

Yeah, Kale in terms of fighting skills/combat skill is inferior to Caulifa and Goku.

Of course. Kale never once trained while Goku trained for decades.

SSJ Kefla had trouble with Blue? Goku realized he couldn't defeat her in Blue, and resort to stacking KKx[insert-number-here]. Likely she could have overpowered SSB Goku at any given time & still was holding back much more power than what everybody thought in the next episode. We don't know the full extent of Kale's power to be honest because she has never gotten the chance to fully utilize/demonstrate herself after Goku quickly tried to get rid of them. So I don't see how the episode outright shouts, to me, Kale is weaker than a tired ssg Goku and therefore diminish her feat against Blue is not legit.

Yes ssj Kefla had trouble with SSB Goku without using kaoken at first. She wasn't at full power yet, but her suppressed ssj power is still more than her base.

Goku was recovering stamina as he was battling. Goku was so strong they even questioned if he was using UI against Caulifla and Kale while in SSJ2. Caulifla even asks if this is "the same super saiyan 2 power" she faced from before after being pushed back by his punch. Whis even states that Goku's "senses are getting sharper" facing the U6 saiyan girls. If Goku was holding back like many claim why was he worried about Berserker Kale again? Why was he "not confident" in victory? All evidence points to Goku gaining strength now than before.

When did he say he was afraid of Kale? I thought he was just excited about her power? He even tried to fight her as a ssj at first.

[Kenneth La Torre]

How strong do people thing aniraza is going to be? I doubt hell be anywhere near the top tier (Jiren, UI Goku, SS2 Kefla). I do think he is going to be ssb tier, at least i hope he is.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong do people thing aniraza is going to be? I doubt hell be anywhere near the top tier (Jiren, UI Goku, SS2 Kefla). I do think he is going to be ssb tier, at least i hope he is.

From the NEP, it looks like he smashed SSG Goku pretty damn hard.

Of course, NEPs are ALWAYS teasing and can be misleading at times, so take that with some grains of salt.

[Dreamer]

No I don't realize that because that's not what happened. His ki blast cut through hers and she struggled to deflect it. Goku tanked hers. She didn't stop his kamehameha either. The only time they were presented to be close was when they were throwing hands, but that's it.

Well, that's what went down. Kale still deflected his Ki blast without getting herself harmed, that's what matters the most. We saw Goku coming out of her Ki blast right after the fact she was shown letting her guard down for a split second and even then, she still showed no signs of having scuff marks. Kale didn't stop the Kamehameha(which didn't even hit them in the first place) because she was too busy taking out the potara earrings, under Caulifa's order.

Goku said it was over and kamehamehad them off the stage. I'm not sure what else you want.

Whom Kale's response to Goku, "you think---?" I am not trying to act as a smartass here, so don't take this way when you read it: He didn't even Kamehameha them off the stage, he blasted the stage that they were on. It's pretty evident after Caulifa was down Kale's fighting spirit also went down along with her. And I reiterate, Goku did not, could not, nor showed he could defeat Kale in SSG in a straight up fight. They were literally even, power-wise. I don't know what you want to say next but the episode is straightforward imo.

Yes ssj Kefla had trouble with SSB Goku without using kaoken at first. She wasn't at full power yet, but her suppressed ssj power is still more than her base.

I mean it still doesn't take away from the fact Kelfa's Super Saiyan while holding back, was revealed to be on the same level as Genki Dama and therefore is stronger than Kaioken.

When did he say he was afraid of Kale? I thought he was just excited about her power? He even tried to fight her as a ssj at first.

Goku: I can't stop shakin'. That must be her Saiyan Instinct
Goku: Not bad. I better be careful or this could get messy.

Goku mentioned in one of the episodes how Kale transforming into her controlled beserker form gave him chills and was even showing sweat. To be fair, Goku is the same guy who fighting Jiren as SSJ in the start despite knowing who he was going up against.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku said it was over and kamehamehad them off the stage. I'm not sure what else you want.

Whom Kale's response to Goku, "you think---?" I am not trying to act as a smartass here, so don't take this way when you read it: He didn't even Kamehameha them off the stage, he blasted the stage that they were on. It's pretty evident after Caulifa was down Kale's fighting spirit also went down along with her. And I reiterate, Goku did not, could not, nor showed he could defeat Kale in SSG in a straight up fight. They were literally even, power-wise. I don't know what you want to say next but the episode is straightforward imo.

I don’t buy they were even, Goku seemed the most calm among them, despite being in disadvantage. He comfortably put them in the position he wanted. If Kale’s power could compete with Super Saiyan God’s, she failed to pass me an impression. So, a straight fight with different rules is pure speculation.

[dragon boss z]

Well, that's what went down. Kale still deflected his Ki blast without getting herself harmed, that's what matters the most. We saw Goku coming out of her Ki blast right after the fact she was shown letting her guard down for a split second and even then, she still showed no signs of having scuff marks. Kale didn't stop the Kamehameha(which didn't even hit them in the first place) because she was too busy taking out the potara earrings, under Caulifa's order.

She struggled with the ki blast that just cut right through hers and Goku wouldn't of tried to knock them off the stage if he thought she could actually still fight him. He knew they couldn't win and he was done fighting them so he decided to finish the fight. Even if we high ball her and say she was equal to a fully fresh SSG Goku (it was stated the Goku she was fighting wasn't full power anyways) that still puts her below SSB.

Whom Kale's response to Goku, "you think---?" I am not trying to act as a smartass here, so don't take this way when you read it: He didn't even Kamehameha them off the stage, he blasted the stage that they were on. It's pretty evident after Caulifa was down Kale's fighting spirit also went down along with her. And I reiterate, Goku did not, could not, nor showed he could defeat Kale in SSG in a straight up fight. They were literally even, power-wise. I don't know what you want to say next but the episode is straightforward imo.

Yes it was straightforward. Straitforward that SSG Goku was going to beat her if they didn't fuse.

I mean it still doesn't take away from the fact Kelfa's Super Saiyan while holding back, was revealed to be on the same level as Genki Dama and therefore is stronger than Kaioken.

No her ssj while at full power was comparable to the spirit bomb and above kaioken. At first she was getting pushed back by SSB Goku while in her suppressed ssj state which is above her base state. This confirms SSB Goku is above base Kefla.

holding back ssj Kefla<SSB Goku<less holding back ssj Kefla<kaioken SSB Goku<full power ssj Kefla=spirit bomb

Goku: I can't stop shakin'. That must be her Saiyan Instinct
Goku: Not bad. I better be careful or this could get messy.

Goku mentioned in one of the episodes how Kale transforming into her controlled beserker form gave him chills and was even showing sweat. To be fair, Goku is the same guy who fighting Jiren as SSJ in the start despite knowing who he was going up against.

Ya, he was never afraid he was going to lose though.

[Dreamer]

I don’t buy they were even, Goku seemed the most calm among them, despite being in disadvantage. He comfortably put them in the position he wanted. If Kale’s power could compete with Super Saiyan God’s, she failed to pass me an impression. So, a straight fight with different rules is pure speculation

I'm just giving where credit is due when I see it. See, that is where I am getting at. We do not know how much more effort/difficulty or energy whatever is required Goku would need in order to beat Kale during those given moments. Or at the very least could he have defeated her in the same manner as Caulifa when she was beaten in his SSG form effortlessly? She not only once, not twice, but three times was trading hands with Super Saiyan God Goku evenly. Neither of the two could damage each other. And when Goku did land a hit on Kale she wasn't shown with any battle marks.
From what I infer from this is that since neither of the two could harm each other they were either a)equal to each other in terms of power-wise or b)since Kale can not sense Goku's god ki she doesn't know how much energy is needed to hurt Goku or c)Goku is just being Goku. d)all the above.

You also have to factor in Goku is not solely fighting using power alone. Kale is not a master martial artist, she's a brawler/street fighter who is "blindly" attacking her opponent. The reason why Goku has control over the situation — the answer lies within what Whis talked about earlier — the skills of a master martial artist. Goku is calculating his distance, sensing his opponents' rhythm and movements, and looking for an opportunity to strike back and take advantage. So overall Goku would win, but the question begs to be answered how much difficulty was Goku going to have against Kale which no one has the answer to really.

She struggled with the ki blast that just cut right through hers and Goku wouldn't of tried to knock them off the stage if he thought she could actually still fight him. He knew they couldn't win and he was done fighting them so he decided to finish the fight. Even if we high ball her and say she was equal to a fully fresh SSG Goku (it was stated the Goku she was fighting wasn't full power anyways) that still puts her below SSB.

And yet she never was damaged or hurt at all, could still trade blows evenly with SSG Goku, and still looked okay. Now how will you explain all of that?
Goku speculated they were done for but he was dead wrong anyway. When was it stated Goku wasn't fighting at full power? If I remember correctly, all they said Goku is tired or whatever doesn't mean he can't utilize his full power, he just can't stay in form for however long. And even if he couldn't get access to his full power I doubt he's that much weaker than a fresh Goku.

Yes it was straightforward. Straitforward that SSG Goku was going to beat her if they didn't fuse.

...

No her ssj while at full power was comparable to the spirit bomb and above kaioken. At first she was getting pushed back by SSB Goku while in her suppressed ssj state which is above her base state. This confirms SSB Goku is above base Kefla.

holding back ssj Kefla<SSB Goku<less holding back ssj Kefla<kaioken SSB Goku<full power ssj Kefla=spirit bomb

SSJ Kelfa was clearly not fighting at full power. Or at least it was never mentioned or implied. Whis stated she is just as strong as the Genki Dama. Which means in her SSJ form she is naturally stronger than SSB Kaioken.

[dragon boss z]

I'm just giving where credit is due when I see it. See, that is where I am getting at. We do not know how much more effort/difficulty or energy whatever is required Goku would need in order to beat Kale during those moments. Or at the very least could he have defeated her in the same manner as Caulifa when she was beaten in his SSG form effortlessly? She not only once, not twice, but three times was trading hands with Super Saiyan God Goku evenly. Neither of the two could damage each other. And when Goku did land a hit on Kale she wasn't shown with any battle marks.
From what I infer from this is that since neither of the two could harm each other they were either a) equal to each other in terms of power-wise or b)since Kale can not sense Goku's god ki she doesn't know how much energy is needed to hurt Goku or c)Goku is just being Goku. d)all the above.
You also have to factor in Goku is not fighting with power alone. Kale is not a master martial artist, she's a brawler/street fighter who is "blindly" attacking her opponent. The reason why Goku has control over the situation — the key answer lies in what Whis talked about earlier — the skills of a master martial artist. Goku is calculating his distance, sensing his opponents' rhythm and movements, and looking for an opportunity to strike back and take advantage. So overall Goku would win, but the question begs to be answered how much difficulty is Goku going to have against Kale which no one has the answer to really.

I wasn't trying to go in to detail about the exact specifics of how much stronger one is compared to the other. I was just saying Goku was shown to be the one who was superior, be it only by a small amount doesn't matter. My original point was that proved that SSB Goku was holding back when he kamehamehad Kale as even if Kale was equal to or a bit superior to SSG she would still be inferior to Blue.

And yet she never was damaged or hurt at all, could still trade blows evenly with SSG Goku, and still looked okay. Now how will you explain all of that?
Goku speculated they were done for but he was dead wrong anyway. When was it stated Goku wasn't fighting at full power? If I remember correctly, all they said Goku is tired or whatever doesn't mean he can't utilize his full power, he just can't stay in form for however long. And even if he couldn't get access to his full power I doubt he's that much weaker than a fresh Goku.

I'm not saying Goku was much weaker, but he was stated to be tired and that's why they were attacking him and it was implied it affected him at least somewhat. I'm not denying Kale is close to SSG Goku, I have her around the current Goku ssj3-SSG range in power.

SSJ Kelfa was clearly not fighting at full power. Or at least it was never mentioned or implied. Whis stated she is just as strong as the Genki Dama. Which means in her SSJ form she is naturally stronger than SSB Kaioken.

Yes I already said that. But at the beggining of the fight Blue pushed her back as a ssj which even while holding back was above her base form. So even if her ssj form is much stronger than Blue, that should prove Blue is above her base, which is above Kale, which in turn proves Blue is above Kale.

[Dreamer]

I'm just giving where credit is due when I see it. See, that is where I am getting at. We do not know how much more effort/difficulty or energy whatever is required Goku would need in order to beat Kale during those moments. Or at the very least could he have defeated her in the same manner as Caulifa when she was beaten in his SSG form effortlessly? She not only once, not twice, but three times was trading hands with Super Saiyan God Goku evenly. Neither of the two could damage each other. And when Goku did land a hit on Kale she wasn't shown with any battle marks.
From what I infer from this is that since neither of the two could harm each other they were either a) equal to each other in terms of power-wise or b)since Kale can not sense Goku's god ki she doesn't know how much energy is needed to hurt Goku or c)Goku is just being Goku. d)all the above.
You also have to factor in Goku is not fighting with power alone. Kale is not a master martial artist, she's a brawler/street fighter who is "blindly" attacking her opponent. The reason why Goku has control over the situation — the key answer lies in what Whis talked about earlier — the skills of a master martial artist. Goku is calculating his distance, sensing his opponents' rhythm and movements, and looking for an opportunity to strike back and take advantage. So overall Goku would win, but the question begs to be answered how much difficulty is Goku going to have against Kale which no one has the answer to really.

I wasn't trying to go in to detail about the exact specifics of how much stronger one is compared to the other. I was just saying Goku was shown to be the one who was superior, be it only by a small amount doesn't matter. My original point was that proved that SSB Goku was holding back when he kamehamehad Kale as even if Kale was equal to or a bit superior to SSG she would still be inferior to Blue.

And yet she never was damaged or hurt at all, could still trade blows evenly with SSG Goku, and still looked okay. Now how will you explain all of that?
Goku speculated they were done for but he was dead wrong anyway. When was it stated Goku wasn't fighting at full power? If I remember correctly, all they said Goku is tired or whatever doesn't mean he can't utilize his full power, he just can't stay in form for however long. And even if he couldn't get access to his full power I doubt he's that much weaker than a fresh Goku.

I'm not saying Goku was much weaker, but he was stated to be tired and that's why they were attacking him and it was implied it affected him at least somewhat. I'm not denying Kale is close to SSG Goku, I have her around the current Goku ssj3-SSG range in power.

SSJ Kelfa was clearly not fighting at full power. Or at least it was never mentioned or implied. Whis stated she is just as strong as the Genki Dama. Which means in her SSJ form she is naturally stronger than SSB Kaioken.

Yes I already said that. But at the beggining of the fight Blue pushed her back as a ssj which even while holding back was above her base form. So even if her ssj form is much stronger than Blue, that should prove Blue is above her base, which is above Kale, which in turn proves Blue is above Kale.

►The first quote was meant for Hugo Boss. I typed in the wrong user. It's fixed now. EDIT: @Dragon Boss Z~ Kale tanking Goku's SSB power is legit. I think it should be important to note it is implied Goku has gotten stronger. As another user(Miracles) pointed out Caulifa questioning Goku's SSJ2 if it was the same as before she fought.

►Assuming you're referring to & still on topic about Kale's control beserker form; she is not close to SSG, she is on Super Saiyan gods level.

►We really don't know how Super Saiyan Blue measures up against a base Kelfa, to be honest. Super Saiyan god is weaker than base Kelfa.

[dragon boss z]

►The first quote was meant for Hugo Boss. I typed in the wrong user. It's fixed now. EDIT: @Dragon Boss Z~ Kale tanking Goku's SSB power is legit. I think it should be important to note it is implied Goku has gotten stronger. As another user(Miracles) pointed out Caulifa questioning Goku's SSJ2 if it was the same as before she fought.

He may of got a tiny bit stronger. If anything Goku was just holding back on Caulifla before.

►Assuming you're referring to & still on topic about Kale's control beserker form; she is not close to SSG, she is on Super Saiyan gods level.

I guess, still it was tired SSG Goku, and if one was stronger it was SSG Goku.

►We really don't know how Super Saiyan Blue measures up against a base Kelfa, to be honest. Super Saiyan god is weaker than base Kelfa.

Considering when Goku went Blue and then Kefla went ssj and they even matched each other at the beginning of the fight, he should be above base Kefla.

[JazzMazz]

Goku overall is just a better fighter than the U6 Saiyans, I don't think anyone is denying that. However, Kelfa likely was holding back just to use more of Goku to unlock more of her potential regardless if Goku being able to defend against her. Literally in the next episode showed she could have ended Goku at any given moment before he broke his shell — i.e, Ultra Instinct Omen. Given the impression on some of the comments — my main point here is that Kale never "lost" to Goku in a straight-up fight despite him having more of the rhythm here, he still couldn't do any damage to her in Super Saiyan God form.

Yes, it is impressive Goku can hold his own against the two female Saiyans, he has shown he could clearly have taken out Caulifa at any given moment. But, Kale, however? I don't agree as aforementioned.
Well just because Goku's attacked looked more effective than hers doesn't mean it is; she showed no signs taking any real damage.

You have two Saiyans with the biggest potential we have seen thus far. battle continuously kept on going+gets stronger at the most crucial moment=bad for Goku. Kale(in the right state of mind/an angry Kale) by herself is potentially dangerous in her own right if the battle were to keep on going(just her going into her Berserker form is enough to make Goku's body shake). What better way to get rid of them if one them is on there last standing leg, and the other one is losing their fighting spirit because their leader/master/protector can't continue anymore. I, too, would have taken the chance to quickly get rid of them by not actually aiming at them but destroy part of the stage to ring them out.

I think your missing the point of how the characters unlock their potential. They unlock their potential by pushing their limits, and they push their limits by fighting at the best they are able to at that time. Goku was pushing his limits by forcing himself to transform to match up against opponents of greater power.

Kelfa, as a Super Saiyan, was forced to better herself in order to have the power necessary to defeat Kaio Ken Goku(that doesn't necessarily mean she was that much more powerful than him though, as the victory was still a surprise and was more based around clever strategy than raw power). Next episode, she powers up to Super Saiyan 2, and at that point, I think its more than safe to say she is more power than Goku when he was using the Kaio Ken.

As for Kale, she was definitely out-matched against Super Saiyan God Goku. He doesn't need to drag on a long winded fight or even fully defeat her for that to be obvious, espicially since there were multiple examples throughout the fight where Goku was completely overpowering both Kale and Caulifla at the same time. You don't need to have Kale take damage, when the feats of Goku overpowering Kale speak for themselves. Thats not to say Kale probably couldn't hold her own against Super Saiyan God Goku, she definitely could, however, based on how Goku overpowering Kale multiple times throughout the fight, and with commentary supporting this idea that his way ahead of them in that form. Merely saying, but, she also didn't appear to be seriously injured doesn't prove that they are physically equal or even comparable. It doesn't prove your point. You haven't provided any real or substantial counter argument to the evidence that suggests Goku as a Super Saiyan God was way ahead of them in the fight. She literally never had any sort of advantage against Goku throughout the confrontation, even depsite Caulifla creating openings which Kale did exploit to no avail. Its true that Kale and Caulifla were also improving during their fight with Goku, however, when Goku went Super Saiyan God, that created a gap in power which they couldn't cross through merely fighting and improving as they were, thats the whole reason why they fused.

Kelfa, before Super Saiyan 2, is stronger than KK[times-insert-number] Goku. I never viewed blitzing behind someone super fast resulted in as part of her "clever" strategy, even so, I doubt Kelfa was even thinking that far ahead and more so just went with the flow as Goku couldn't react in time. It is a surprise because Goku's senses couldn't keep up with her at that point. Regardless of which, one can not dismiss the power of her kick was that of the level of the Genki Dama. Basically, it is implied Kelfa as a Super Saiyan was already that strong. It was even implied she wasn't even trying to win but prolong the fight long enough because she was having fun.
And I'm just saying, there are plenty of examples from Goku and other characters in the ToP where a character either gets blitzed from behind or blindsided by an attack and had no problems evading or counter-attacking a sneak attack as long there energy giving them away(E.g. Goku and Cabba).

Kale couldn't have been overpowered by a Super Saiyan God Goku when a)Kale had no signs of any damage and b)trading blows 3x against Goku as Super Saiyan God with almost no stop, which that in itself speaks volumes since it neither proves Goku having the advantage, she was far from being beaten and overpowered as you keep wording it. There weren't multiple comments to what you are referring to, as far as I know. Only Shin had made such a comment, but since when has his comments ever taken as a grain of salt? The same guy who claimed Caulifa was going give Goku trouble. Seriously injured? Kale wasn't injured or damaged at all. Nada, zip, zero, nothing. Without any real counter-argument, you can't dismiss these feats or claim she doesn't need to be hurt or she was overpowered, when in actuality, Caulifa was the only one that getting overpowered and couldn't do a thing to bridge the gap. Goku as a Super Saiyan God couldn't do anything to Kale but stall and keep her away from Caulifa, if that's what you call getting "overpowered".
You're greatly mistaken. Obviously, Goku doesn't need to defeat Kale, he just needs to ring her out even if it's by means a cheap shot. As I said before, the gap between Kale and SSG Goku isn't big as you are making it out to be, when comparing it to Caulifa, who was more than once getting bodied to the floor by SSG Goku each time. If there was such a big gap power-wise between the two, he would have bodied Kale to the floor the second she came into contact, he wouldn't be needing to be focusing most of his attention on Caulifa, and then quickly tries to wrap it up towards the end. Goku had the advantage, skill-wise. Both Kale and SSG Goku were equal in power. The episode is straightforward.

I never knew creating a smoke screen for a surprise attack isn't considered being strategic. I think its also worth noting, Goku had pretty much run out of energy after using that attack. While its true she was as comparable to the Genkidama, I think your also missing some of the context where Goku forces Kefla to exert power beyond her limits using the Kaio Ken.

Kale is not on SSG Goku's level in 114. I say 114, because Goku actually improved during his fight with Caulifla and Kale, as evidenced by his Super Saiyan 2 form vastly outclassing Caulifla's for time, leading Caulifla to wonder if this was really the same Super Saiyan 2 she fought previously, so it also stands to reason that all his other forms grew along with him. This is confirmed when Elder Kai states after Goku is overpowering Caulifla and Kale, "It seems he really does exert power beyond his limitations(namely being weakened due to not fully recovering)." So when Goku goes SSG against Cauilfa and Kale, yes, he is in a different level to them. Hell, even the peanut gallery thinks his of a different level to them. Also, your points about Goku not overpowering Kale are contradictory or superfluous to what actually happened in the episode.

A)So what? By that same token, I could say that Kale was never shown doing damage to Super Saiyan 2 Goku in 114 and is therefore as strong as Kale at her best. He didn't appear more damaged than he was in 114 and we can toss away any statements about Kale being a massive threat to him because why not? Thats literally what you did. So why can't I do it?
B) Yes, she was able to trade blows with SSG. But I think its more worth noting, that even despite both her and Caulifla fighting Goku at the same time, Goku was still able to stay on top of both of them even though Kale was able to exploit one of the many openings Caulifla made for her to hit Goku with an energy blast that did nothing to Goku, and lead to her being kicked away. All that proves, is that she can fight SSG Goku for time. Also, there is literally nothing to suggest that Shin was off the mark with his comment about Goku being out of their league. Also, Caulilfa was trouble for Goku, when he was low on stamina, and she did give him trouble, so I don't see how that really discredits Shin as a commentator. Its true that Caulilfa was far more out of her depth than Kale was, however all that suggests is that Kale is A)Stronger than Caulifla and B) Can hold her own against SSG in a fight(that doesn't mean that she is on the same level) and B)Is stronger than SS2 Goku.

I have provided an adequate counter arguments and examples that more than prove my point, you've just decided to ignore them because they don't suit your narrative. If anything, your the one who is completely lacking in any sort of substantial evidence.

I don't see how again winning a two way beam struggle and forcing them to fully exert themselves in order to free themselves, landing a clean blow on your opponent after recieving no damage after being blasted in the face and being able to fight evenly Kale despite Caulifla butting in multiple times in their fight, and other characters commenting on how Goku out of their league goes to suggest KALE is the one coming off stronger, then you don't know what overpowering someone is.

I'm not saying the gap is anywhere near as massive as it is between Cauilfa, what I'm saying is despite being able to hold her own, she was still completely outmatched against Goku as an SSG.

I'll finish off by saying that maybe before 114 Kale's full power would have been on the same or even greater level than SSG, but due to pushing his limits, and as the fight in 114 actually shows, SSG is still a step too far for her, even though she could still hold her own, which is in its own way admirable.

[Miracles]

When did he say he was afraid of Kale? I thought he was just excited about her power? He even tried to fight her as a ssj at first.

I didn't post Goku was afraid but "not confident." He was shaking...He even told the girls later that he wasn't confident in victory. Not too mention after seeing Kale's form again, Goku said "that insane transformation AGAIN!" Vegeta even confirms by stating; "Must be that U6 Saiyan female, Kale's tremendous energy AGAIN!" Why would Blue level warriors and beyond give her such praise "AGAIN" if Kale wasn't worthy of walking through the Blue Kamehameha?

Can we just keep toppo at ssb level? Leys not put him above that until he shows his full power

Well, post-fight statements show that there's nothing confirmed about Toppo over SSB.
In EP 83, Goku tells Vegeta that he did not know if Toppo would win, EVEN in the Blue form. He could have just said that about Blue Kaioken, but no, he just said about Blue, confirming that defeat was not right using just Blue

Goku used the Kaioken to show Toppo what happens when he goes beyond his limits. Neither of them had fought with all the power yet, so Daishinkan would not know who would win (he does not speak '' full power '' in the phrase).
Maybe Toppo really is above SSB, I'm not saying this can not happen. But I think until now this has not been so clear to define

Do you want to set Gohan's level with a 5 second "fight" with Goku Blue? With 2 punches? Gohan has never shown up to Blue level, this does not even make sense.

So people think Toppo, while holding back, tanking a Blue Kamehameha point blank, NO damage, is only Blue level? Even tho Goku was powering up above Blue with KK stacked on top of it when Toppo was powering up? Not to mention Blue Vegeta couldn't even defeat Toppo who was holding back too.

And Gohan stating "I'll use my full power" when Goku went Blue and then Goku gets Knocked back and uses KK Blue means Gohan isn't Blue tier?
The rule in Dragonball is when a person powers up and the other powers up it's to meet their level of power.

[Bullza]

How strong do people thing aniraza is going to be? I doubt hell be anywhere near the top tier (Jiren, UI Goku, SS2 Kefla). I do think he is going to be ssb tier, at least i hope he is.

Well I would guess that Goku won't be using Ultra Instinct on it so I can't see Aniraza being as strong as Kefla.

He will probably be above Super Saiyan Blue level though.