Is Vegeta a smart fighter?

[TysonWine]

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

I gave nearly 20 examples of him being smart and they still have a "see no evil, hear no evil" attitude so it's clear they're seeing what they want to see and nothing will change that.

Are we seeing what we want to see or are you seeing what you want to see? People (myself included) have given a rebuttal to your examples. You've been given credit for the legit examples you've given, but a lot of them were reaching, and were rightfully and respectfully argued against. Instead of defending your points, you found one person who agreed with you by way of "Piccolo said so," and by your own words posted above, decided everyone else is too stubborn to see things the "right" way.

Is there a part of the fan base that just hates Vegeta's guts, and will deny any accomplishments he's made? Maybe, I don't know. What I do know is, there are a lot of legit arguments being made in this thread against Vegeta being this genius fighter, and everyone in here didn't just start hating Vegeta the moment this thread was made.

[sintzu]

Instead of defending your points...

I've got nothing more to add to my points so arguing will just end up in us going around in circles.

[Kanassa]

Instead of defending your points...

I've got nothing more to add to my points so arguing will just end up in us going around in circles.

If you don't want to defend or argue your points, that's fine. But belittling others for simply disagreeing with you only makes your points look worse.

[PolatGuy92]

Vegeta was more cunning and a better strategist in the Saiyan and Freeza arc. After that it all went downhill from there, great examples where moments with 18 and Cell. In the end he is a smart fighter and knows his battlefield and a expert in hand to hand combat, but it's the fact that he's bad written by the writers that makes him look more like a singleminded brute nowadays.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Genius fighter in DB just means top tier with great battle instinct generally. In my opinion anyway...so I think Vegeta fits that bill.

[Jigurashi]

Vegeta was more cunning and a better strategist in the Saiyan and Freeza arc. After that it all went downhill from there, great examples where moments with 18 and Cell. In the end he is a smart fighter and knows his battlefield and a expert in hand to hand combat, but it's the fact that he's bad written by the writers that makes him look more like a singleminded brute nowadays.

I agree with this. Though I wouldn't say just nowadays. Post-Namek Vegeta doesn'tn have all that many genuine moments of being shown to be a tactical and skilled fighter. He is one, at least the series wants us to believe that. My issue is the fact that despite the series telling us this, it hardly ever bothers to show us this that often.

[HeroR]

Are we talking about that wave that leveled the island? Because I'm pretty sure he, and nobody else, wouldn't have thought anybody could tank that. Goku's ki sensing friends, including Kami, didn't know Goku could tank that.
And what weakness? That it left him drained? Cause it didn't. Goku turned his back to Piccolo because of that misjudgment.

None of Goku’s friends could sense ki at the time. Not until they trained with Kami in the Saiyan.

No, he’s giant form. As Goku pointed out, it just made him a big target. But the attack did drain Piccolo, which is how Goku best thr shit of him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

And? Piccolo saying Vegeta is smart means nothing, especially in the saga that depends on Vegeta being a moron.

Vegeta only acted with arrogance in the fight against Cell (by being extremely confident with his new power).

He acted like a complete moron who apparently forgot the Frieza saga.

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

No, why would that be enough? That's an informed character trait that directly contradicts most of the show.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

It does not matter if you think that Vegeta's attitude against 19 and Gero was not something genius, the series emphasized this through Piccolo, indicating that Vegeta in fact is a genius of the fights.

Piccolo is experienced and strategist, especially after absorbing Kami-sama.

The Saiyajin saga is one of the best examples. The whole plan to defeat Nappa (even though he, Gohan and Kuririn were much weaker than the Saiyan) was created by Piccolo. He also proved clever in the Freeza Saga by making Porunga revive him and consequently making the Earth Dragon Balls come back (no one remembers that).

Piccolo said that Vegeta just wanted to CONFIRM if Android 19 absorbed energy (he did not know anything about them, even having watched the fight against Goku).

In the end, he managed to destroy the 19 easily even after losing so much energy. Nothing has changed

He should have saw 19 sucked Goku's Kamehameha if he saw the entire fight and 19 was clearly draining his energy while he's down. If he still needed confirmation, then Vegeta is a moron and Piccolo is also a moron for thinking more confirmation was needed. Especially when later Vegeta turns around and fires an energy blast to smoke 20 out, completely forgetting that he can absorbed it.

He destroyed 19 but then had to bluff to 20 so he wouldn't kill him. It was a stupid and unneeded plan.

I do not know if you noticed, but Vegeta had literally ripped the hands off of Android 19, rightly so he was not able to absorb more energy (so he used the Big Bang Attack at the end). Letting the androde suck energy from him also served for this, besides knowing this device, was not something useless and in the end did not hurt him)

Nobody there actually knew the power of Gero, and Piccolo himself said that Vegeta had lost a lot of energy and could really lose the fight (regardless of what you think)

[HeroR]

Vegeta only acted with arrogance in the fight against Cell (by being extremely confident with his new power).

He acted like a complete moron who apparently forgot the Frieza saga.

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

No, why would that be enough? That's an informed character trait that directly contradicts most of the show.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

It does not matter if you think that Vegeta's attitude against 19 and Gero was not something genius, the series emphasized this through Piccolo, indicating that Vegeta in fact is a genius of the fights.

Piccolo is experienced and strategist, especially after absorbing Kami-sama.

The Saiyajin saga is one of the best examples. The whole plan to defeat Nappa (even though he, Gohan and Kuririn were much weaker than the Saiyan) was created by Piccolo. He also proved clever in the Freeza Saga by making Porunga revive him and consequently making the Earth Dragon Balls come back (no one remembers that).

Piccolo said that Vegeta just wanted to CONFIRM if Android 19 absorbed energy (he did not know anything about them, even having watched the fight against Goku).

In the end, he managed to destroy the 19 easily even after losing so much energy. Nothing has changed

He should have saw 19 sucked Goku's Kamehameha if he saw the entire fight and 19 was clearly draining his energy while he's down. If he still needed confirmation, then Vegeta is a moron and Piccolo is also a moron for thinking more confirmation was needed. Especially when later Vegeta turns around and fires an energy blast to smoke 20 out, completely forgetting that he can absorbed it.

He destroyed 19 but then had to bluff to 20 so he wouldn't kill him. It was a stupid and unneeded plan.

I do not know if you noticed, but Vegeta had literally ripped the hands off of Android 19, rightly so he was not able to absorb more energy (so he used the Big Bang Attack at the end). Letting the androde suck energy from him also served for this, besides knowing this device, was not something useless and in the end did not hurt him)

Nobody there actually knew the power of Gero, and Piccolo himself said that Vegeta had lost a lot of energy and could really lose the fight (regardless of what you think)

He hardly needed to be grab and lose a bunch of energy to do that. Surely his brilliant mind could have thought of something better. And given how strong Vegeta was, he could’ve most like tore the Android apart with his bare hands. And I see you don’t even address how stupid it was that Vegeta needed ‘confirmation’ that 19 could drain energy if he saw all of Goku’s fight like he claimed.

And Vegeta risked everything on a bluff on a plan that really wasn’t needed. That isn’t proven his genius here.

And as pointed out by me, Piccolo was also dumb in the Frieza Saga for making the Earthlings wish him to Namek, endangering the entire revival plan and mocking King Kai about his warnings to stay aware from Freeza.

[Michsi]

None of Goku’s friends could sense ki at the time. Not until they trained with Kami in the Saiyan.

Not sure that's accurate, cause that would mean Roshi can't either and neither does he ever learn to. That's kind of hard to believe. Not to mention we clearly see Tenshinhan and the others shake in fear as he Piccolo was charging even before Goku says anything. They could definitely feel what was coming. Eitherway, Kami was there and he was telling Goku to run.

No, he’s giant form. As Goku pointed out, it just made him a big target.

I don't remember the giant form causing any great strain on Piccolo's stamina, nor Goku saying something about him being target. I don't think it's in the manga at least.

But the attack did drain Piccolo, which is how Goku best thr shit of him.

Goku literally says that Piccolo must've used all of his ki for that attack and we know for a fact that he didn't. Considering all he manages afterwards, Piccolo was far from drained. That wasn't just Goku lowering his guard, he had plainly misjudged the situation. You could use the "but couldn't he sense the ki " argument against Goku too.

[Kanassa]

Vegeta only acted with arrogance in the fight against Cell (by being extremely confident with his new power).

He acted like a complete moron who apparently forgot the Frieza saga.

Piccolo is one of the most intelligent characters in the series. And he acknowledged that Vegeta's attitude was impressive, enough for him to call the Saiyan of genius battles (even though he did not like it). Is not that enough for you?

No, why would that be enough? That's an informed character trait that directly contradicts most of the show.

And being the most intelligent character in Dragon Ball isn't a high bar. Fuck, Piccolo's introduction arc was just Goku pointing out how he's very bad at seeing obvious flaws in his strategies and wouldn't have survived this long if he wasn't so powerful.

It does not matter if you think that Vegeta's attitude against 19 and Gero was not something genius, the series emphasized this through Piccolo, indicating that Vegeta in fact is a genius of the fights.

It doesn't matter what Piccolo says. SAYING Vegeta is a genius does not make him one. If the series said Beerus has never blown up a planet before, does that erase what we've seen him do?


Vegeta is not a genius unless he is shown to be a genius. And with such a small amount of actual intelligent moments compared to his moments of stupidity, he ain't exactly Blackadder in the department of cunning plans. GOKU has shown to be more cunning than Vegeta.

[Lionel]

It's not like the Namek arc was the first instance of improvisational guerrilla tactics. Yamcha in the Pilaf arc was portrayed as shrew and calculating. Several times he demonstrated a surprising amount of ingenuity and teamwork through his collaborations with Puar to attempt to steal the Dragon Balls and rescue Bulma from Monster Carrot. I don't recall anyone ever addressing him as a "genius" -- good potential, yes, but not a prodigy. If someone like Yamcha is able to devise similarly crafty manouevres then what should be the standard for what we perceive as "genius"?

For what it's worth, I didn't think too much of Piccolo's intelligence until recently. His suppressive position thanks to Prum and need to discreetly slink about the ruins while covering his and Gohan's tracks was a notable moment of cleverness from him -- even then, not much was achieved from all the hiding. I could sooner find a reason to believe that he's a genius if he thought of something out of the box involving his magic and/or Namekian abilities that enabled him to overpower a vastly more powerful fighter (not someone who looked to only be moderately stronger, in the case of an exhausted Frost).

[BWri]

Seriously, why do people keep on insisting that Vegeta is smart when it comes to battle, . I mean, I haven't seen an ounce of battle tactics or strategy from Vegeta in Dragon ball super nor in the majority of Dbz. He literally fights like a moron or should I dare say a dumb brute. In my personal opinion, Vegeta is probably the most brute minded fighter in dragon ball (Even Gohan is better at fighting tactically as shown in the tournament of power). what are you thoughts on this and please, don't forget that this just my personal opinion. Bye

It's just one of those things that's told to us rather than shown. Vegeta was quite tactical when he was introduced, namely on Namek and he's had little moments after that here and there that show he's more than a mindless ruffian, but overall I have to agree that tactician part of his character is usually not shown too often. He had a good plan in the Buu arc to form the Spirit Bomb. His Final Explosion vs. Buu was also a good idea, only Buu was more hax than he realized. It was likely his half of Vegetto who realized that he could free the others from inside of Buu.

Also, let's be real, this is Dragon Ball. It doesn't take a lot to be considered a brilliant tactician in this universe--hell, this multiverse now that we've seen the collective stupidity of the best fighters 8 universes have to offer.

edit:

He is a smart fighter, but he often gets portrayed like brute (not to the extent of Gohan though) so we don't usually get to see it as often.

Yup, this is the problem. I have the same problem with Piccolo too, the supposed strategist of U7. Piccolo's strategies are usually pretty direct, requiring surface level thinking, but even then his success rate for these strategies is low. If he was written more competently, it would make more sense to call him the strategist, but instead we have to rely on what the narration and character exposition.

[Miracles]

Vegeta is not a smart fighter cause has he even addressed any of the weaknesses Whis has told him he has?
Why all of a sudden did he start to remember/ think of UI AFTER he see's Goku use it?