"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[CJStriker_CBR]

If they could write supremely strong fighters in u6,7 and 11 and create a way for u3 to become a threat via Aniraza, why would it be so hard to put high level fighters in the other 4 universes? Those universes were blank slates meaning Toriyama/Toyo/Toyotaro could have done whatever they wanted and given simple explanations.

For example:

The kamikaze fireballs could have been Helles Proteges + magical girl references and boom that's why they are god level fighters

It's not difficult to come up with reasons for other universes to have fighters that are not total weaklings relative to u7

I honestly think that early on in the ToP that is what Toei was going for with the kamikaze fireballs. Even thought 17 was clearly stronger in the end the fight with Kakunsa was a High Speed and High powerful one that set a new standard for levels in the ToP like the Grand Priest said at the end of episode 101. In 103 Ribrianne went well against 17 even impressing him, so I think the fireballs where meant to be allot stronger, mainly Ribrianne at the start of the ToP.

It just seems that Toei then after 106, from episode 107 and on Nerfed them allot, Mainly Ribrianne with just base form fights and other characters like Kale against SSJ-God Goku who was said by Tien she become more powerful but earlier she could Tank SSJB-Goku?

Toppo seemed weaker for awhile and Dyspo just stayed out of fights, Roshi could spar well with Frost for awhile and so on to name a few. Their seem to be a nerfing going on for key players from U2, U6 and for awhile U11. Now Toei is getting back on the powerful storytelling but for awhile it seemed they nerfed key players.

The power scaling has been at key points with key players espically the new ones just bad sadly.

I don't know if this is true, but I found a clear difference with what I saw and I know Ribrianne as good as anyone, she clearly was not as powerful as she was in 102-103, Toei held her back maybe for reasons to come in the next arc, I am not sure.

[Lapislettuce]

I am sure #17 will contribute to Toppo's or Dyspo's downfall.

I sure hope so.

Got to say whatever happens in next episode and on Lapislettuce, Android 17 has up to this point had an Excellent showing in this Arc, maybe one of the Best comebacks of a classic character I have seen in sometime in most any long-running series!

The last episode alone had more key good for 17, loved the moment when he was the center of the Group in the final showdown and the moment where he goes Full Epic on U3 speaks for itself!

Congratz Lapislettuce my friend, IMO 17 has had an Impressive and Epic showing, IMO he is one of the Major Power players now in U7.

Hope he has been shown to your liking as well up to this point Lapislettuce.

Yes ! as usual thank you so much for your positivity ! last episode was epic and seeing the strongest people from U7 fighting together was just a blast. i don't want to sound greedy or anything because i've been waiting for 17 to comeback for over a decade now and got attached to him too much currently. anything good that might happen with him from now on will be considered a bonus to me.

[Noah]

Ok, I rewatched SSB Goku vs. Jiren and a few things to note... Jiren grits his teeth a few times, but only when attacking. He has a worried face at a Kamehameha, but only because he's clearly in a vulnerable position and he dodges. I'm comparing it to the preview...and yes, you can definitely see Jiren is actually putting more effort in. Most of the fight with Goku it's a blank, bored expression. When Goku is on the offensive, he's blocking and dodging and clearly doesn't seem phased. Vegeta, you see him gritting his teeth the entire time in this preview. Not to mention Vegeta still gets a clean hit in the stomach. Goku didn't pull that off at all; he hits Jiren a few times who guarded every hit, clearly he was sand-bagging. In contrast, Jiren gets kicked in the stomach and we see him have a reaction, suggesting he felt some pain. I know it's a preview but the fact is Vegeta pulled off something Goku couldn't based off the preview, suggesting that yes, Vegeta is giving Jiren a harder time than Goku.

So I guess with that analysis we can conclude that Supersaiyanbulla is with Vegeta what namekiansaiyan is with Piccolo

But still valid though, I'm don't see why SSJB Vegeta can't perform better than UI Goku, this series had never consistent power scalling anyway.

[The_Destroyer]

Since you’re tired of “fodder stomps” you’re not going to agree with anything? You reduced my statements (which were facts) to headcannon? You had HeroR validate pretty much what I said verbatim and you refuse to acknowledge you’re wrong? Gotcha.

Okay, you're right. Universe 7 only got strong because certain events played out the way did. I get that. But could they not have played out similarly in another Universe? Could there not have been a threat that simultaneously occured while Universe 7's events were playing out that caused equally strong fighters to rise. I mean, we do need fodder in the tournament, but not consistent fodder stomps. They sort of did this with Universe 9, with the Trio explaining how they got strong through their struggles. Also, Super's powerscaling is incredibly wonky. If we go by it, tons of fighters should be able to beat buu. But,I mean, should they?

I guess we're looking at this wrong way here. What you said can be true and we can reduce the number of fodder stomps as well. Should fodder stomps not exist? Well, everyone should at least get one cool moment, so I guess not. But this can be fixed by having better matchups, like instead of fighting Goku or Vegeta, have that person fight Piccolo instead. Or just raise their power up a bit. We don't know what those guys have been through either. If the ToP took place during the time of Frieza's regin, for all we know a lot of these guys would be weaker.

The Headcanon comment was wrong of me, I apologize. Sometimes we can make logical conclusions based on what's given to us, I actually do it all the time too, so it was hyporcritical of me to do so. I still stand by the idea of Whis saying what you said,as to why a Universe with such a low mortal level can dominate.

Wow. That’s the most mature thing I’ve read on here. Now I feel silly.


I feel like that’s part of why Grand Priest has taken a liking to U7. They’re the underdog. Despite having a system that ranks them so low, they’re performing exceptionally well. Maybe proving that their system of ranking is flawed. Who knows. Everything is so vague. I really wish they would make more of an explanation of Mortal Level.

Well explaining isn't super's forte(however you spell it) sometimes

Sorry if I came off rude earlier in the conversation.

[FortuneSSJ]

I'm expecting Jiren to beat Vegeta but it's important to not forget that after Champa arc, Vegeta used the Time Chamber twice unlike Goku that didn't use it anymore.
He landing some blows is not impossible.

As for the character usage, this is gonna be hard. There are still 5 U7 fighters and 3 of them (Freeza, Gohan and Vegeta) still didn't have a major 1 vs 1.

As much as I've been loving C17, after the last episode it's about time for him to be eliminated. Toppo should take care of him. He deserves something.
I would give Dyspo to Gohan, but according to the spoilers Freeza may be the one to take him down.

With that in mind, I would go it:

- Freeza eliminates Dyspo
- Toppo eliminates C17
- Gohan eliminates Toppo
- Jiren eliminates Vegeta and Gohan
- Goku eliminates Jiren but gets worn out. Quickly after that, and before they announce U7 as the winner, Freeza eliminates Goku which makes him the real winner.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Some people said that Vegeta would not be eliminated by Jiren based on tweets that Toshio did a few months ago.

Could someone explain to me

[WittyUsername]

I'm expecting Jiren to beat Vegeta but it's important to not forget that after Champa arc, Vegeta used the Time Chamber twice unlike Goku that didn't use it anymore.
He landing some blows is not impossible.

As for the character usage, this is gonna be hard. There are still 5 U7 fighters and 3 of them (Freeza, Gohan and Vegeta) still didn't have a major 1 vs 1.

As much as I've been loving C17, after the last episode it's about time for him to be eliminated. Toppo should take care of him. He deserves something.
I would give Dyspo to Gohan, but according to the spoilers Freeza may be the one to take him down.

With that in mind, I would go it:

- Freeza eliminates Dyspo
- Toppo eliminates C17
- Gohan eliminates Toppo
- Jiren eliminates Vegeta and Gohan
- Goku eliminates Jiren but gets worn out. Quickly after that, and before they announce U7 as the winner, Freeza eliminates Goku which makes him the real winner.

As much as I try to avoid power scaling debates, Vegeta being able to give Jiren a hard time feels like pandering when you consider that Jiren was able to manhandle Goku with the Kaioken X20, and was more than a match for UI Goku.

[HeroR]

I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.

There is a lot of anime, manga, comics, ect that centers around overpowered protagonists like One Punch Man, most Superman comics, Rurouni Kenshin. There is even a troper called Showy Invincible Hero.

Dragon Ball has had protagonists be overpowered compare to the threat. The first story arc of Dragon Ball has Goku be stronger than everyone outside of the Ox King. Goku wiped the Red Ribbon Army with only Blue and Tao giving him any real challenge and then after Goku trained with Korin he stomped everyone. Grandpa Gohan only did anything by grabbing Goku's tail. Goku vs. Tien was far more one-sided in the manga with Goku having the advantage for most of the fight. It wasn't until 'Z' that the protagonists were the 'underdogs' and even then, the protagonists overwhelmed 19 and 20 and then Cell at several points. Buu Saga started with the protagonists being overpowered until Buu came.

Also, 'Fists of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult', huh? Where in the world did hear that? Have you watched Fist of the North Star? That is the show where people's heads explode and people wondered how it was rated for kids. Comparing it to Yugioh of all things, and I like Yugioh, is the strangest thing I have read in awhile. Also, Fists of the North Star's writing is far more mature than Dragon Ball even without the violence.

[Noah]

Some people said that Vegeta might not have been eliminated by Jiren based on tweets that Toshio did a few months ago.

Could someone explain the situation?

Well, a time ago Toshio said he wrote a cool Vegeta episode, but he's not the writer of the next one, so some people believe Vegeta might endure a few episodes until that Toshio one he was referencing to.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Some people said that Vegeta might not have been eliminated by Jiren based on tweets that Toshio did a few months ago.

Could someone explain the situation?

Well, a time ago Toshio said he wrote a cool Vegeta episode, but he's not the writer of the next one, so some people believe Vegeta might endure a few episodes until that Toshio one he was referencing to.

After this tweet from Toshio, did he write an episode where Vegeta did something cool?

[Totamo]

Nah, don't you know? Everything is reference now. If it even slightly resembles an old move, it's automatically a reference. An uppercut to the stomach? When else have we ever seen something like that in Dragon Ball? Obviously a reference.



I think you're all looking at this conversation through the wrong lens to be honest. While what HeroR and TheOne are saying TECHNICALLY makes sense from an in-universe perspective, that doesn't excuse the issue from a writing/narrative perspective. You should not have your main protagonists be this OP and just steamroll almost every threat. Yes, you can reach deep into the lore and craft some sort of defense, but what's the point? It doesn't change the fact that it's stupid from a narrative viewpoint, a flaw of this arc that kills tension and causes that nagging feeling of dragging and boredom that many people feel. Those people might not be able to verbalize exactly why they're getting bored with all of this, but I can. Part of the reason is definitely because the arc feels kinda empty and lacking in any real substantive stakes or drama, which is caused by U7 curb stomping everyone relatively easily with the exception of ONE dude.

So essentially, I don't think your defenses really excuse the fact that Toei should've designed the other universes to put up a real fight. I don't care about how U7 is a bunch of mutants and freaks of nature that got lucky. We should be ignoring that in favor of a good story with tension that forces the heroes to dig deep and desperately struggle.

That is extremely incorrect. Fist of the North star's protagonist beat the shit out of everyone he came across. He was insanely OP, yet his story is one of the most beloved shonen ever made as with violence jack. OP protagonists are nothing new and there are people out there who like them as they are a power fantasy which dragon ball is to a lot pf people.


Tension, stakes or drama isn't needed to make a good story, they are plenty out there that don't. All story needs to be good is cohesive and entertaining , anything else is extra. IMO, this arc has only been one of those and not all the time.

I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.

Thats what shonen was before dragon ball. An unstoppable badass plowing through enemies like because it was fun to fantasize about.

And what are you talking about? Goku rarely struggled against anyone in the First arc or second except Roshi. In fact, every tournament arc Goku basically destroys everybody except maybe 2 people. Even in z they were never framed as underdogs. Gohan was considered to be a warrior with mass potential. The saiyans are literally called natural born fighters. Underdogs does not mean weaker than the bad guy, it means a predicted loser that comes out on top in the end. That only happened to Goku and Gohan. The humans and namekians were both slaughtered and never came out on top.


Fist of the north star is only called that by and look down upon in the west but you know what, so is Dragon Ball Z and One Piece. They all have what you call tension and drama but they are still called kid shows. Hell, Broly is everything people stereotype Dragon ball z to be and he is the definition of a power fantasy which is the main reason why people love him and hate him so much

My point is, You can make an overpowered protagonist and still tell a good story. One punch man is literally that and even though its a parody, its fights are held higher the shows with actually tension.

[Totamo]

I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.

There is a lot of anime, manga, comics, ect that centers around overpowered protagonists like One Punch Man, most Superman comics, Rurouni Kenshin. There is even a troper called Showy Invincible Hero.

Dragon Ball has had protagonists be overpowered compare to the threat. The first story arc of Dragon Ball has Goku be stronger than everyone outside of the Ox King. Goku wiped the Red Ribbon Army with only Blue and Tao giving him any real challenge and then after Goku trained with Korin he stomped everyone. Grandpa Gohan only did anything by grabbing Goku's tail. Goku vs. Tien was far more one-sided in the manga with Goku having the advantage for most of the fight. It wasn't until 'Z' that the protagonists were the 'underdogs' and even then, the protagonists overwhelmed 19 and 20 and then Cell at several points. Buu Saga started with the protagonists being overpowered until Buu came.

Also, 'Fists of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult', huh? Where in the world did hear that? Have you watched Fist of the North Star? That is the show where people's heads explode and people wondered how it was rated for kids. Comparing it to Yugioh of all things, and I like Yugioh, is the strangest thing I have read in awhile. Also, Fists of the North Star's writing is far more mature than Dragon Ball even without the violence.

No, he is right. Fist of the north star is looked down upon in the west.

[HeroR]

After this tweet from Toshio, did he write an episode where Vegeta did something cool?

I don't know when he wrote the twitter, but for reference he wrote: 107, 112, 115, and 121. Also, it was never stated that the 'cool moment' was for this arc.

No, he is right. Fist of the north star is looked down upon in the west.

Which part of the west? The worst I've heard people talk about it is that it's a cliche storm, and that's because it popularize many tropes we see in anime/manga even today. It's kinda like the Simpsons effect.

[TheOne]

Okay, you're right. Universe 7 only got strong because certain events played out the way did. I get that. But could they not have played out similarly in another Universe? Could there not have been a threat that simultaneously occured while Universe 7's events were playing out that caused equally strong fighters to rise. I mean, we do need fodder in the tournament, but not consistent fodder stomps. They sort of did this with Universe 9, with the Trio explaining how they got strong through their struggles. Also, Super's powerscaling is incredibly wonky. If we go by it, tons of fighters should be able to beat buu. But,I mean, should they?

I guess we're looking at this wrong way here. What you said can be true and we can reduce the number of fodder stomps as well. Should fodder stomps not exist? Well, everyone should at least get one cool moment, so I guess not. But this can be fixed by having better matchups, like instead of fighting Goku or Vegeta, have that person fight Piccolo instead. Or just raise their power up a bit. We don't know what those guys have been through either. If the ToP took place during the time of Frieza's regin, for all we know a lot of these guys would be weaker.

The Headcanon comment was wrong of me, I apologize. Sometimes we can make logical conclusions based on what's given to us, I actually do it all the time too, so it was hyporcritical of me to do so. I still stand by the idea of Whis saying what you said,as to why a Universe with such a low mortal level can dominate.

Wow. That’s the most mature thing I’ve read on here. Now I feel silly.


I feel like that’s part of why Grand Priest has taken a liking to U7. They’re the underdog. Despite having a system that ranks them so low, they’re performing exceptionally well. Maybe proving that their system of ranking is flawed. Who knows. Everything is so vague. I really wish they would make more of an explanation of Mortal Level.

Well explaining isn't super's forte(however you spell it) sometimes

Sorry if I came off rude earlier in the conversation.

Same here man. It’s easy to get overly passionate about a show you enjoy

[TheOne]

Ok, I rewatched SSB Goku vs. Jiren and a few things to note... Jiren grits his teeth a few times, but only when attacking. He has a worried face at a Kamehameha, but only because he's clearly in a vulnerable position and he dodges. I'm comparing it to the preview...and yes, you can definitely see Jiren is actually putting more effort in. Most of the fight with Goku it's a blank, bored expression. When Goku is on the offensive, he's blocking and dodging and clearly doesn't seem phased. Vegeta, you see him gritting his teeth the entire time in this preview. Not to mention Vegeta still gets a clean hit in the stomach. Goku didn't pull that off at all; he hits Jiren a few times who guarded every hit, clearly he was sand-bagging. In contrast, Jiren gets kicked in the stomach and we see him have a reaction, suggesting he felt some pain. I know it's a preview but the fact is Vegeta pulled off something Goku couldn't based off the preview, suggesting that yes, Vegeta is giving Jiren a harder time than Goku.

So I guess with that analysis we can conclude that Supersaiyanbulla is with Vegeta what namekiansaiyan is with Piccolo

But still valid though, I'm don't see why SSJB Vegeta can't perform better than UI Goku, this series had never consistent power scalling anyway.

I also try to take into consideration that at no point Vegeta was like “what the heck”. He kept his cool throughout the whole UI introduction. Not sure if that has anything to do with it, but if he performs very well next weekend then we know why he was somewhat confident.

[Totamo]

After this tweet from Toshio, did he write an episode where Vegeta did something cool?

I don't know when he wrote the twitter, but for reference he wrote: 107, 112, 115, and 121. Also, it was never stated that the 'cool moment' was for this arc.

No, he is right. Fist of the north star is looked down upon in the west.

Which part of the west? The worst I've heard people talk about it is that it's a cliche storm, and that's because it popularize many tropes we see in anime/manga even today. It's kinda like the Simpsons effect.

The same side that calls dragon ball z a kid show.

[kinisking]

All this Freeza leg and hand slipping is just forshadowing for him getting ultra instinct I tell you !

[Supersaiyanbulla]

What Did Goku mean by this

[CJStriker_CBR]

I sure hope so.

Got to say whatever happens in next episode and on Lapislettuce, Android 17 has up to this point had an Excellent showing in this Arc, maybe one of the Best comebacks of a classic character I have seen in sometime in most any long-running series!

The last episode alone had more key good for 17, loved the moment when he was the center of the Group in the final showdown and the moment where he goes Full Epic on U3 speaks for itself!

Congratz Lapislettuce my friend, IMO 17 has had an Impressive and Epic showing, IMO he is one of the Major Power players now in U7.

Hope he has been shown to your liking as well up to this point Lapislettuce.

Yes ! as usual thank you so much for your positivity ! last episode was epic and seeing the strongest people from U7 fighting together was just a blast. i don't want to sound greedy or anything because i've been waiting for 17 to comeback for over a decade now and got attached to him too much currently. anything good that might happen with him from now on will be considered a bonus to me.

Glad to and cause I know what is it like to see your favorite not getting allot of spotlight for a longtime and when they finally have a Big Break to Support them to the Hill the best a Fan can. I have done that both here and on my Comic Book Forum for some characters, it is a struggle at times and I Get where your coming from Lapislettuce, both as a Brianne fan and as a fan of those other characters in comics.

So I am glad to here 121 was a Blast to you and whenever anyone doubts 17 again, you have 121 as well as other moments to use to support him.

Also it is never greedy to want to see the most out of your favorite, just it is the way you go about saying and desiring it. You have done well, the most important aspect to remember is this ~~~ It is not the Amount of time 17 has but the Substance in what he does in the time he is given. Always look for the substance cause each moment is a mines worth of Gold to support and promote why 17 is awesome to you, as well as any fan with any character.

I could go to the Hilltop with each moment of Brianne and members of U2 and for the Limited time they had how Allot of those moments I saw where filled with allot of meaningful substance that shows how grand both Brianne and U2 are!

Remember to always cherish each moment cause each moment is filled with Grandness you can breakdown and show why 17 is so good using you eyes and fandom to open the eyes of other fans.

[Kenneth La Torre]

What Did Goku mean by this

He meant exactly that, draw power beyond what he should be capable of.