"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:41 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
It’s almost as if the anime is written in a way to ensure elementary school kids get it.
Are we going to forget that Dragon Ball's main demographic has always been young Japanese boys?

I don't get that argument at all. Are you saying the same demographic 20 years ago is dumber today? There is obviously a different tone in narrative and dialogue, not to mention more focus on slapstick "comedy". So either they are targeting a younger audience or the same audience has gotten dumber.
Dragon ball started off as a comedy and Toriyama is a gag writer at heart. He wrote the series for young boys, he said that.


If you dragon ball was more mature back then, cool. But that was never the author's intent nor the demographic. Shonen is for ages 12 to 18.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MajinMan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:45 am

Totamo wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Are we going to forget that Dragon Ball's main demographic has always been young Japanese boys?

I don't get that argument at all. Are you saying the same demographic 20 years ago is dumber today? There is obviously a different tone in narrative and dialogue, not to mention more focus on slapstick "comedy". So either they are targeting a younger audience or the same audience has gotten dumber.
Dragon ball started off as a comedy and Toriyama is a gag writer at heart. He wrote the series for young boys, he said that.


If you dragon ball was more mature back then, cool. But that was never the author's intent nor the demographic. Shonen is for ages 12 to 18.
This is wrong. The main Shonen demographic is more accurately around 6-13. Everyone else is a bonus.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:46 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Are we going to forget that Dragon Ball's main demographic has always been young Japanese boys?
I think it’s fair to say it had more of a scope and range. It’s similar to the Harry Potter series where it’s themes seemed to mature as both the audience and the protagonist matured in universe.
My argument still stands shonen are mostly read by teenagers and middle aged.Now,dragon ball may be read by teenagers or even children but it always had a wide range.At the start,it viewers may be teenagers only or even children but after ten years of serialization and a decade after that is the audience boys only?Now,I am not saying they should turn into a seinen,all I was saying is that adult audience will like the story to be a little adult themed or complex,which can be done without changing the general e.g. dragon ball.I could even give you examples from american child shows like avatar legend of air bender[spoiler]Highly recommended,https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&rct= ... cKjwjzZJDX[/spoiler].Not to mention consistency and creativity has nothing to be with age.
No but money does and that is the only reason dragon ball is back. The minions movie made 1.5 billion dollars on a 74 million dollar budget.


And we are not the main demographic? Super airs in the morning. You know like Saturday morning cartoons used to.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:47 am

MajinMan wrote:
Totamo wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
I don't get that argument at all. Are you saying the same demographic 20 years ago is dumber today? There is obviously a different tone in narrative and dialogue, not to mention more focus on slapstick "comedy". So either they are targeting a younger audience or the same audience has gotten dumber.
Dragon ball started off as a comedy and Toriyama is a gag writer at heart. He wrote the series for young boys, he said that.


If you dragon ball was more mature back then, cool. But that was never the author's intent nor the demographic. Shonen is for ages 12 to 18.
This is wrong. The main Shonen demographic is more accurately around 6-13. Everyone else is a bonus.
Really? Alright then.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:02 pm

LightBing wrote:Why do you think that? I don't see any reason for Mr.Toriyama to want to stop. My impression is that he's pretty happy with the current arrangement.

The last chapters of the manga were him forcefully concluding the story because of non-artistic reasons.
It has nothing to do with him not being happy but with him probably not wanting to do this for the rest of his life. He'll be 63 in April so if he continues to write for another 3-4 years he'll be in his mid-late 60's. I'd love for him to keep doing this till he's 100 but I think expecting him to do it past 70 is asking for too much.

He said he ended things there because he didn't think Goku could realistically get any stronger. If he still had stories to tell back then he would've just did what he's doing now if he stopped just because he didn't want to draw.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:11 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Where are you getting 10 years since Cell? It's at least 13. We're in Age 780 possibly 781.
I meant over 10 years as said by Mr.Satan. How did you come up with that number?
7 years from Cell to Buu. 6 years since Buu.
How do you know that time has passed? Both mediums have purposely avoided giving dates. Pretty sure all the manga has is: "days and months" passed since Boo's defeat, Pan and Bra's birth and the mentioned Mr.Satan line.

I know there's the movies timeline but there's a decent of changes compared to Super, where they omitted the dates altogether.
sintzu wrote:It has nothing to do with him not being happy but with him probably not wanting to do this for the rest of his life. He'll be 63 in April so if he continues to write for another 3-4 years he'll be in his mid-late 60's. I'd love for him to keep doing this till he's 100 but I think expecting him to do it past 70 is asking for too much.

He said he ended things there because he didn't think Goku could realistically get any stronger. If he still had stories to tell back then he would've just did what he's doing now if he stopped just because he didn't want to draw.
That's a pretty arbitrary allocation of age. There's no limitations people set those for themselves or unfortunate circumstances.

We know he was sick of drawing weekly manga and since he was drawing Dragon Ball for more than 10 years he's was tired of it, he wasn't shy telling us about it. Only recently did he regained the love for the franchise.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:17 pm

Totamo wrote:
MajinMan wrote:
Totamo wrote: Dragon ball started off as a comedy and Toriyama is a gag writer at heart. He wrote the series for young boys, he said that.


If you dragon ball was more mature back then, cool. But that was never the author's intent nor the demographic. Shonen is for ages 12 to 18.
This is wrong. The main Shonen demographic is more accurately around 6-13. Everyone else is a bonus.
Really? Alright then.
I think there are a lot more factors that come into play than just the intended age group. Censorship is also a lot more strict now than it was back then. While DB might have always been intended for a younger male audience/ readership, shonen manga in the '80 and early '90 was pretty gracious when it came to things like nudity and violence.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Totamo wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
I think it’s fair to say it had more of a scope and range. It’s similar to the Harry Potter series where it’s themes seemed to mature as both the audience and the protagonist matured in universe.
My argument still stands shonen are mostly read by teenagers and middle aged.Now,dragon ball may be read by teenagers or even children but it always had a wide range.At the start,it viewers may be teenagers only or even children but after ten years of serialization and a decade after that is the audience boys only?Now,I am not saying they should turn into a seinen,all I was saying is that adult audience will like the story to be a little adult themed or complex,which can be done without changing the general e.g. dragon ball.I could even give you examples from american child shows like avatar legend of air bender[spoiler]Highly recommended,https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&rct= ... cKjwjzZJDX[/spoiler].Not to mention consistency and creativity has nothing to be with age.
No but money does and that is the only reason dragon ball is back. The minions movie made 1.5 billion dollars on a 74 million dollar budget.


And we are not the main demographic? Super airs in the morning. You know like Saturday morning cartoons used to.
First,the children shows fall under “Kodomomuke”,children below 6,just wanted to end the confusion.So,shonen demographic is actually preteen and teens.What I am saying is even if target demographic is teens or preteens it can still be used to appeal adults.Now,I am basing this on other shonen like one piece,nanatsu no taizai,even full metal alchemist is shonen.A copypaste of theme of fma
The series explores social problems, including discrimination, scientific advancement, political greed, brotherhood, family, and war. Scar's backstory and his hatred of the state military references the Ainu people, who had their land taken by other people. This includes the consequences of guerrilla warfare and the amount of violent soldiers a military can have. of the people who took the Ainus' land were originally Ainu; this irony is referenced in Scar's use of alchemy to kill alchemists even though it was forbidden in his own religion. The Elrics being orphans and adopted by Pinako Rockbell reflects Arakawa's beliefs about the ways society should treat orphans. The characters' dedication to their occupations reference the need to work for food.The series also explores the concept of equivalent exchange; to obtain something new, one must pay with something of equal value. This is applied by alchemists when creating new materials and is also a philosophical belief the Elric brothers follow
Now,you will say super airs in sunday morning.Check the link I gave above,like super it is meant for children with no blood and nudity,at least from what I can remember.I am not even talking about blood,nudity or adult concepts(though I would not mind that).I was talking about a little bit of three dimensional characters which we have gotten before like zamasu,hit,beerus(they may not be written well),some logic(in universe logic),creativity(hit,darcori) and consistency.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:39 pm

Toyo going to need to make the manga version of the TOP feel Much crazier if people expect it to be better than the anime

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:57 pm

pacz360 wrote:Toyo going to need to make the manga version of the TOP feel Much crazier if people expect it to be better than the anime
Honestly if toyo these in the following.
    -Have jiren wreck Goku SSB/UI,no bs like the previous villains oh and have Vegeta as well gets defeated in his first encounter witn no BS.
      -The entire team U7 gets more than 1 elimination.
        -The villain need to something more other than doing nothing,is so off putting seeing the candidate of god of destruction and the speedster doing nothing.
          -Not everyone need to be a jerk
            -This is asking a bit too much but i hope U7 are not the only one being responsible of the universes downfall.
              -Better pacing as well a consistent powerscale.
                -More screentime for the gods of destruction & kaioshin,now this is something that toyo is good at.Not expecting a lot of unique abilities or 65 memorable characters or a clusterfuck of epic proportion in every chapter,like i said i would liked the manga version of this more if he does these.
                Last edited by The gr on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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                Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                Post by Hawk9211 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:01 pm

                The gr wrote:
                pacz360 wrote:Toyo going to need to make the manga version of the TOP feel Much crazier if people expect it to be better than the anime
                Honestly if toyo these in the following.
                  -Have jiren wreck Goku SSB/UI,no bs like the previous villains oh and have Vegeta as well gets defeated in his first encounter witn no BS.
                    -The entire team U7 gets more than 1 elimination.
                      -The villain need to something more other than doing nothing,is so off putting seeing the candidate of god of destruction and the speedster doing nothing.
                        -Not everyone need to be a jerk
                          -This is asking a bit too much but i hope U7 are not the only one being responsible of the universes downfall.
                            -Better pacing as well a consistent powerscale.
                              -More screentime for the gods of destruction & kaioshin,now this is something that toyo is good at.Not expecting unique abilities or 65 memorable characters or a clusterfuck of epic proportion,like i said i will still prefer the manga if he does these.
                              He does gods better except for black and zamasu.
                                -Characters with more memorable abilities
                                Why power levels are important?
                                The genre and roots of dragon ball

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                                Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                Post by The gr » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:05 pm

                                Hawk9211 wrote: He does gods better except for black and zamasu.
                                • Characters with more memorable abilities
                                Zamas is ok,black just sucks here.U11 need to break the streak of underwhelming villains.
                                  -He could have some character with cool abilities still not expecting 65 awesome abilities at best i expect 20 or 30.Forgot to mention give screentime to the character that actually matters,not murichim or nigrishi,give them to obuni & paparoni.
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                                  Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                  Post by Hawk9211 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:27 pm

                                  The gr wrote:
                                  Hawk9211 wrote: He does gods better except for black and zamasu.
                                  • Characters with more memorable abilities
                                  Zamas is ok,black just sucks here.U11 need to break the streak of underwhelming villains.
                                    -He could have some character with cool abilities still not expecting 65 awesome abilities at best i expect 20 or 30.Forgot to mention give screentime to the character that actually matters,not murichim or nigrishi,give them to obuni & paparoni.
                                    Fine with me.Even anime can't develop 80 characters even if they try,let alone a monthly manga.Although,he should not try to present worst hax as something special.Take shantsa,obuni and darcori(illusionist) or winnie poh,magetta(defense) and biarra,both shantsa and biarra are worse than the other two counterparts.
                                      -Another thing that bugged me was rehashing of techniques,hopes he comes up with new ones.
                                      Why power levels are important?
                                      The genre and roots of dragon ball

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                                      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                      Post by Miracles » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:41 pm

                                      pacz360 wrote:Toyo going to need to make the manga version of the TOP feel Much crazier if people expect it to be better than the anime
                                      Exactly. An all out free for all battle should be constant with attitudes displaying urgency for survival.

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                                      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                      Post by Analytical Delusion » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:06 am

                                      We don't know for sure how the Vegeta/Jiren fight will conclude (I don't expect Vegeta to win, but who knows if he gets knocked out, gets swatted aside, ends up fighting someone else, shows some signs of UI, etc), but I think this next episode shows how Toei wrote itself into a hole with kaioken blue. It was only used I believe once briefly in the Zamasu arc, when there were tons of opportunities to resort to it out of desperation, but we saw the 10x version in the U6 and more recently the TOP arc, with even a 20x variant appearing twice.

                                      Even in a post-power levels Dragon Ball, twenty times is still twenty times. Vegeta giving Jiren a good fight implies that, unless circumstances have drastically changed, that Vegeta is many times stronger than Goku without kaioken. Maybe they'll write it off as Vegeta having unlocked some different mode of blue (perhaps Toei borrows from Toyotaro again, and gives him full power blue?).

                                      As beautiful as the kaioken blue animation is, it certainly seems like it's more trouble than it's worth. Even given the in-universe justification (that because blue's ki control is calm it's dangerous, but safer than kaioken with normal super saiyan, which would be almost certain death), it still opens pandora's box as to why it wasn't used other times when the stakes were high (of course the out-of-universe explanation is that it wasn't in Toriyama's outlines in Z, and very likely isn't now either).

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                                      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                      Post by Hawk9211 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:01 am

                                      Analytical Delusion wrote:We don't know for sure how the Vegeta/Jiren fight will conclude (I don't expect Vegeta to win, but who knows if he gets knocked out, gets swatted aside, ends up fighting someone else, shows some signs of UI, etc), but I think this next episode shows how Toei wrote itself into a hole with kaioken blue. It was only used I believe once briefly in the Zamasu arc, when there were tons of opportunities to resort to it out of desperation, but we saw the 10x version in the U6 and more recently the TOP arc, with even a 20x variant appearing twice.

                                      Even in a post-power levels Dragon Ball, twenty times is still twenty times. Vegeta giving Jiren a good fight implies that, unless circumstances have drastically changed, that Vegeta is many times stronger than Goku without kaioken. Maybe they'll write it off as Vegeta having unlocked some different mode of blue (perhaps Toei borrows from Toyotaro again, and gives him full power blue?).

                                      As beautiful as the kaioken blue animation is, it certainly seems like it's more trouble than it's worth. Even given the in-universe justification (that because blue's ki control is calm it's dangerous, but safer than kaioken with normal super saiyan, which would be almost certain death), it still opens pandora's box as to why it wasn't used other times when the stakes were high (of course the out-of-universe explanation is that it wasn't in Toriyama's outlines in Z, and very likely isn't now either).
                                      Wrong thread,mate but I agree with you.
                                      Why power levels are important?
                                      The genre and roots of dragon ball

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                                      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                      Post by prince212 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:01 pm

                                      pacz360 wrote:Toyo going to need to make the manga version of the TOP feel Much crazier if people expect it to be better than the anime
                                      The way manga is doing ....is already better ( for my taste ) , sadly is hard to keep the pace with the anime , and if anime is 10 months ahead or so ... it’s hard to tell that every manga charter is gonna have 6-7 eliminations per chapter , so Toyo better draw some crazy stuff , and I hope u11 to eliminate other universes in the manga , u7 responsible of all the eliminations having Jiren around doing joga exercises while being worry about his own universe waiting a phone call to return and forget about the tournament won’t have any sense
                                      It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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                                      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                      Post by ToshioWrites » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:01 pm

                                      I have hope Toyo will make Toppo relevant in the tournament unlike Toei which ignores him until the end

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                                      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                      Post by TheMikado » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:27 pm

                                      Totamo wrote:
                                      MajinMan wrote:
                                      Totamo wrote: Dragon ball started off as a comedy and Toriyama is a gag writer at heart. He wrote the series for young boys, he said that.


                                      If you dragon ball was more mature back then, cool. But that was never the author's intent nor the demographic. Shonen is for ages 12 to 18.
                                      This is wrong. The main Shonen demographic is more accurately around 6-13. Everyone else is a bonus.
                                      Really? Alright then.
                                      Sigh...... a basic google search would settle this easily:

                                      Shōnen, shonen, or shounen manga (少年漫画 shōnen manga) is manga aimed at a teenage male target-demographic readership. The age group varies with individual readers and different magazines, but it is primarily intended for boys between the ages of 12 to 18.[1] The kanji characters (少年) literally mean "boy" (or "youth"), and the characters (漫画) mean "cartoon" or "comic". Thus, the complete phrase means "young person's comic", or simply "boys' comic"; its female equivalent is shōjo manga. Shōnen manga is the most popular form of manga.[2][3]

                                      If DBS targets a main demographics below teen then it’s safe to assume it’s not really considered shonen any longer.

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                                      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

                                      Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:38 pm

                                      TheMikado wrote:
                                      Totamo wrote:
                                      MajinMan wrote:
                                      This is wrong. The main Shonen demographic is more accurately around 6-13. Everyone else is a bonus.
                                      Really? Alright then.
                                      Sigh...... a basic google search would settle this easily:

                                      Shōnen, shonen, or shounen manga (少年漫画 shōnen manga) is manga aimed at a teenage male target-demographic readership. The age group varies with individual readers and different magazines, but it is primarily intended for boys between the ages of 12 to 18.[1] The kanji characters (少年) literally mean "boy" (or "youth"), and the characters (漫画) mean "cartoon" or "comic". Thus, the complete phrase means "young person's comic", or simply "boys' comic"; its female equivalent is shōjo manga. Shōnen manga is the most popular form of manga.[2][3]

                                      If DBS targets a main demographics below teen then it’s safe to assume it’s not really considered shonen any longer.
                                      The wikipedia article is wrong. Or more specifically, it didn't take the right information from the article it sourced. Because the article it sourced actually states:
                                      Shonen [少年], sometimes seen written as shounen, is the term given to manga and anime whose target audience is male readers. The kanji for shonen can be literally translated into "few" or "little years". This is appropriate because the shonen age group consists of boys ranging from eight to eighteen years old.

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