Why do people have a problem with Vegeta doing better against jiren?

[Simere]

Actually, Vegeta and Trunks also damaged Fused Zamasu a lot. It is very subtle, but their father-son Galick Gun greatly hindered Fused Zamasu's immortality.

It's so subtle you can't even see it! Artistic mastery.

[Kishido]

I hope Vegeta will get the mastered Blue form of the manga. He hasn't got SSG so maybe this will be used as explanation.

If not I hope for SSB 2... Sadly Inner Oozaru control is unlikely =(

[Simere]

Will apologies be forthcoming from those of you who complained so much about how SSBKK put Goku forever out of reach for Vegeta?

[SupremeKai25]

Actually, Vegeta and Trunks also damaged Fused Zamasu a lot. It is very subtle, but their father-son Galick Gun greatly hindered Fused Zamasu's immortality.

It's so subtle you can't even see it! Artistic mastery.

I know right? The Future Trunks arc was the pinnacle of Toriyama's and Toei's writing. So many subtle details that you could pick up, such a superb symbolism. Too bad Trunks had to ruin it. But i'm digressing.

Also, i guess Vegeta will break his limits in... roughly 9 minutes? Wow, he's just full of surprises. Give him 19 minutes and he might even ascend to the tier of the Angels!

[Saturnine]

I doubt ssb kk x 20 is actually 20 times stronger than ssb.
I believe kk x 20 is just 20 times his base, and then ssb gets added on top of that.
So ssb kk x 20 goku = 20 times goku base plus ssb

That would literally be useless. SSj Blue is easily thousands of times his base, adding a mere 20x more of his base to that would be not a big deal in the slightest.

Unless you still think Goku's base is like SSj God level and SSj blue is only like 5x stronger than that, in that case maybe you would have half decent a point. I don't believe that's the case anymore though.

I rermember there being talk in the same vein back when Goku was supposedly absorbing his SSj God power. People theorized that Goku being a SSj or base didn't matter in the slightest, since God gave him an increment of like 10 thousand, not subject to the transformation's multiplier. 10,001 vs 10,050 really isn't much of a difference. Made sense then, but it really doesn't with SSj Blue. Like I said, multiplying just the base and not the final power figure wouldn't have increased Goku's performance to any noticeable degree, with the exception of a case where Goku's base is super high and SSj Blue's multiplier over it is really low. But again, while that seemed to be the original idea, it was largely abandoned later on, cemented by the reintroduction of SSj God itself.

It's funny, the Goku fans have a problem with Vegeta not being completely delusional and seemingly backing up his boastful claims.

Yeah, I've also noticed that part of the DBZ fanbase seems profoundly disturbed by Vegeta trying to surpass Goku again, while in their minds he should just give up and "know his place" after his "confession" during the Kid Buu battle, even though Vegeta makes a claim of wanting to catch up to Goku again even in Toriyama's own revised version of the manga. I mean come on, what's so bad about Vegeta still being motivated? It really helps him, it makes him stronger, it drives him forward. Not to mention that Goku and Vegeta appear to have forever been evenly matched ever since Babidi gave him the power-up. The times where Goku was 30-50% stronger than Vegeta was from the Cell Games arc to right before Babidi's powerup.

[TheOne]

Not that this is a direct response to the prompt, but has anyone considered that Vegeta will improve himself while fighting Jiren? You know, pushing himself beyond his normal limitations through continuous combat with an opponent that far outclasses him, which would in turn force him to improve in order to keep pace. Does seem likely to anyone, or is it just me?

That’s blasphemous. It’s not allowed to happened Vegeta. This ability should only be reserved for everyone else including Master Roshi. It would make absolutely no sense to allow Vegeta to do something so logical.

[Saturnine]

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some people were actually angry that Vegeta has SSj Blue in the first place. He's supposed to be a grumpy oaf controlled by rage after all, how come he gained access to a transformation requiring focus and calmness? Hee hee

[Nero<>Akira]

people talking about unrealistic boosts lol DB has always had nonsensical boosts. Spare me the "not like this" claims that have permeated Super for a long time. The only difference then and now is the character being stronger. This man Goku got a boost from 80K in base form from when he arrived on namek and got beat up by Vegeta while Ginyu had control of his body to over 3 MILLION on par with 2% final form freeza. Vegeta went from like 40K when he fought recoome and got trashed to over 500K once he ate the senzu bean. Like.... guys. stop it. You either admit its not an issue or it's always been. The claim that it's stupid only here will not stand. Vegeta is doing better because he's now better. He has to push himself more because he doesn't have everything Goku has. Goku has multiple techniques and a very versatile fighter. Vegeta is the more intelligent fighter and has to work with what he has and make the most of it. He also has to push himself more BECAUSE Goku is more talented (he's the main character).

Vegeta is also the main character of the series along with Goku. Yeah, it's said Goku is always put there because it's thought fans will lose interest without seeing Goku, but he's still the deuteragonist. the 2nd most important character. Vegeta and Goku's place in the story are that of strong fighters in a series that revolves around fighting. Vegeta, by storytelling law, HAS to be written as a worthy fighter. I'm not saying it's a plot device. But, AT & the writers have to come up with ways for him to stay relevant. Technically, if Goku is out of commission, Vegeta can take the reigns as the primary protagonist. Togashi did the same with Killua in HxH when Gon was out of commission, because of Killua was the deuteragonist since the first arc. That said, we've seen Vegeta train in times Goku hasn't. He did it after BOG and had a 6 month head start. he did it in the FT arc when Goku was learning to use the Maafuba. by the end of the FT arc, Vegeta is stronger than Goku. And, from what we have seen, he's been training when Goku hasn't post the FT arc. Presumably all the time we don't see him on screen. Goku has been too, but they've made it clear he got rusty at some point. Now, we also see why Vegeta told Goku good luck at the beginning of the arc when he said he may surpass him. Vegeta has surpassed him. AGAIN. There's nothing wrong with it storytelling wise because they're more rivals now more than they've ever been. It's necessary for them to one up each other. I'm actually baffled people took Vegeta's dialogue as being the best U7 fighter and throughout the arc as character regression. At the same time, I'm not. This is a series that gets way more shit than it deserves and many issues that i see people have with it don't really exist. So, it doesn't surprise me that people believe Vegeta, with the amount of calmness and his decision making in the tournament in moments you'd think he would lose his shit, is being regressed and delusional. Baffling and unsurprising. As a Vegeta fan, I'm super pumped. I also want to make clear that I honestly thought Toyotaro's handling of Vegeta in the FT manga arc was too much pandering.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I really can not understand this fandom

-Goku appears using the Kaioken in the Champa Tournament without any explanation (after all, he trained together with Vegeta on RoSaT / Whis, it would not be like Vegeta himself does not realize it)

- Goku manages to damage the merger Zamasu (something Vegeta + Trunks and Vegetto could not)

- A Genki Dama explodes in Goku's face but he comes back with a technique that neither the gods dominate with ease

- Goku gets completely worn out after a fight against Jiren, and 1 minute later can already use up the Blue Kaioken

And all of this is okay for fandom.
Why complain about Vegeta, who trained several times in RoSaT, overcome Goku SSB KK x20?
Goku still has the UI, he's still stronger than Vegeta, but nothing prevents Vegeta from having his moment

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

It's a NEP, ffs... just wait for the episode.

I'm not gonna jump the gun, but let's assume in a hypothetical scenario that Vegeta "does better" than SSB KKx20 Goku and Hit in facing Jiren based on what people are assuming from a NEP:
*Maybe, Vegeta was quite aware of Goku being able to use KK with SSB and trained in the RoSaT for an unconfirmed period of time to surpass that? I mean must Goku and Vegeta have to be equal in regular SSB at every given moment in time, is that an ironclad rule or something? It's not the first time we've seen SSB Vegeta being stronger than SSB Goku (third time against Black Rose and Zamasu) and it's not the first time we've seen Goku needing KK to match or surpass Vegeta (very first Goku vs Vegeta fight). None of this takes away from the fact that Goku is still stronger than Vegeta at the end of the day.
*Maybe, Vegeta discovered something new about god ki while training or something? Completed SSB?
*Maybe, just like how Goku in his normal state did far better against Hit than SSB Vegeta did, Vegeta observed how Jiren fought against Goku and Hit and is counteracting based on that knowledge? Goku does it against Hit and not as many people have a problem, but Vegeta could do it and bam, problem. And yes, I'm fully aware of what the manga said regarding this situation, but the manga and anime interpretations were quite different. Which leads to the next point.
*Maybe, Jiren underestimated Vegeta and is surprised Vegeta is holding his own against the power Jiren is choosing to let out (Like Hit obviously suppressing his power against normal state Goku)? Maybe that's why Jiren is sweating and making facial expressions? And people complain for more expression from Jiren too. I mean hell, Vegeta made Beerus bleed (albeit just a tiny bit) in the BoG movie and even then, Beerus was like "just kidding, I was holding back hella". Jiren can do that too.

And this is again, for the hypothetical scenario that Vegeta is "doing better" from a NEP (which may be misleading) given how many can't wait for the episode. Don't get me wrong, It's not as if I personally believe any of these will be the case, due to Super's frustrating lack of explaining things, they're just educated guesses. Trust me, I also expect Vegeta to get stomped. Not to mention even the spoilers, which can be just as misleading as the NEP at times, say Vegeta is utterly defeated by Jiren. No matter what happens, Vegeta's beaten regardless of whether or not he gets a few more hits in judging from, again, a NEP.

I really can not understand this fandom

-Goku appears using the Kaioken in the Champa Tournament without any explanation (after all, he trained together with Vegeta on RoSaT / Whis, it would not be like Vegeta himself does not realize it)

- Goku manages to damage the merger Zamasu (something Vegeta + Trunks and Vegetto could not)

- A Genki Dama explodes in Goku's face but he comes back with a technique that neither the gods dominate with ease

- Goku gets completely worn out after a fight against Jiren, and 1 minute later can already use up the Blue Kaioken

And all of this is okay for fandom.
Why complain about Vegeta, who trained several times in RoSaT, overcome Goku SSB KK x20?
Goku still has the UI, he's still stronger than Vegeta, but nothing prevents Vegeta from having his moment

Agreed. With you on this one.

[BWri]

I hope Vegeta will get the mastered Blue form of the manga. He hasn't got SSG so maybe this will be used as explanation.

I hope for this too. It's the most logical solution and would be a cool bit of irony, sense Goku was the first to master the original SSJ form.

If not I hope for SSB 2... Sadly Inner Oozaru control is unlikely =(

Both of these ideas are too cool for Super. Doubt we'll see anything that awesome. Instead we'll get Jiren holding back, a rage boost, or nothing at all. Mark my words.

[BWri]

By the way. How would YOU feel if Piccolo fared better against Jiren than SSB Vegeta? Would you like that?

Very good question to ask. I've been called a Vegeta hater so much this week when really I just give a damn about the power heirarchy and basic logic that the show tries to present. It's not rocket science. People just want consistency from a show they devote a lot of time to watch. I don't want things to devolve into a mindless free for all, unless the show goes out of its way to present that as its style.

[Asura]

I really can not understand this fandom

-Goku appears using the Kaioken in the Champa Tournament without any explanation (after all, he trained together with Vegeta on RoSaT / Whis, it would not be like Vegeta himself does not realize it)

- Goku manages to damage the merger Zamasu (something Vegeta + Trunks and Vegetto could not)

- A Genki Dama explodes in Goku's face but he comes back with a technique that neither the gods dominate with ease

- Goku gets completely worn out after a fight against Jiren, and 1 minute later can already use up the Blue Kaioken

And all of this is okay for fandom.
Why complain about Vegeta, who trained several times in RoSaT, overcome Goku SSB KK x20?
Goku still has the UI, he's still stronger than Vegeta, but nothing prevents Vegeta from having his moment

But none of this is comparable to this situation at all. Goku gets destroyed in SSBKK x20. If Vegeta does better than Goku all on his own, that means Vegeta is stronger than SSBKK x20, which would make zero sense. That would make Vegeta over 20x stronger than Goku. In none of those situations does Goku magically do better than someone who is more powerful than him fighting the same person, except maybe the Goku damaging Zamasu one, which I said in the past was bullshit, but it could be explained with Trunks and Vegeta just hitting him beforehand with their Galick Guns, and Goku outputting so much power that he breaks his limbs.

[MKCSTEALTH]

I don't think the problem is he's doing better, it's the fact that from the preview he's making Jiren sweat (which to be fair could just be an animation choice) is what's causing all the comotion. And the fact that characters like Hit and UI Goku could not make Jiren sweat

[levnekaethian]

We also don't know much about the premise of the episode (122). Jiren has been meditating a long time and perhaps he's holding back right now - saving stamina for a showdown with Goku or a combination of them all. Unless Jiren has infinite stamina you have to take this into account. Perhaps fighting UI Goku is a great strain on him and therefore needs to save his strength. We'll find out soon enough.

[TBMx]

Yeah, I've also noticed that part of the DBZ fanbase seems profoundly disturbed by Vegeta trying to surpass Goku again, while in their minds he should just give up and "know his place" after his "confession" during the Kid Buu battle,

To anybody who actually wants to see this, and wants to see toei write Vegeta moving on from his rivalry with Goku after his Kid Buu saga confession, watch Dragonball GT. Because that is literally that very thing. There's no need to go in that direction again when they're already explored it.

Goku gets destroyed in SSBKK x20. If Vegeta does better than Goku all on his own, that means Vegeta is stronger than SSBKK x20, which would make zero sense. That would make Vegeta over 20x stronger than Goku
In none of those situations does Goku magically do better than someone who is more powerful than him fighting the same person,

Base Goku taking hits from Hit better than ssB Vegeta did. Making Goku appear thousands of times stronger than Vegeta.

[Kaiosama]

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some people were actually angry that Vegeta has SSj Blue in the first place. He's supposed to be a grumpy oaf controlled by rage after all, how come he gained access to a transformation requiring focus and calmness? Hee hee

I actually do have a problem with him having SSB and being able to skip SSG. Bad writing IMO.

[Asura]

Base Goku taking hits from Hit better than ssB Vegeta did. Making Goku appear thousands of times stronger than Vegeta.

Hit wasn't putting the same amount of power into his punches against Goku that he used against Vegeta. He's been watching the tournament the whole time and knows that Goku and Vegeta can transform. He's not going to go all out on base Goku since he knows he can transform. They were both sizing each other up.

[JazzMazz]

Again, why have so few users not considered the possibility that Vegeta is going to improve himself while fighting with Jiren? To me at least it makes far more sense than expecting some wild card technique or some rage boost(though improving in combat through frustration definitely isn’t impossible). Why hasn’t the idea that Vegeta is going to improve through continuously fighting Jiren really latched on? Is it because it is a concept that is a little alien to the series, or is it because it is a concept that has never been presented in this fashion? What are people’s thoughts on this?

[TBMx]

Base Goku taking hits from Hit better than ssB Vegeta did. Making Goku appear thousands of times stronger than Vegeta.

Hit wasn't putting the same amount of power into his punches against Goku that he used against Vegeta. He's been watching the tournament the whole time and knows that Goku and Vegeta can transform. He's not going to go all out on base Goku since he knows he can transform. They were both sizing each other up.

The show doesn't tell us this at any point. If one is going to assume this, no one should have any complaints against Vegeta vs jiren, as they would simply assume the same - Jiren powered down for Vegeta for some reason.